Jump to content
Happy Daze

NX1 Extended Dynamic Range? New Settings.

Recommended Posts

This was manual exposure. In the two shots I posted above, I did not do any exposure compensation. Both are at ISO 1600, f8, and 1/50. I also did the test compensating for exposure, and the same clipping occurred at the same point.

I actually did a series of tests last weekend, both adjusting the ISO to compensate for the decreased brightness and not compensating, trying it with the RGB sliders at 0.5, 1, and 1.99. Everything was manual exposure.

It was apparent to me that by setting the sliders to 1.99, you do get increased dynamic range and detail (at least at ISO 1600 and compensating to 800.) Based on a few other posts, this may not be true at lower ISO values (e.g. 400, compensating down to 200). The following shot is at ISO 1600, RGB sliders at 1.0 (the same one from above). This time, both images are at a 100% crop to show details.

rgb1.0waveform.thumb.png.f3cb352b2bec768b5308e5e2289e45f0.png

 

This one is ISO 800, RGB sliders at 1.99. Notice how the yellow text on the book is no longer blown out, without a significant difference to the overall exposure. You can even see a teeny bit more of the metal in front of the light bulb. Furthermore, there is much more detail. Try saving both images and flipping between them quickly in your photo viewer. The text is sharper, the noise is sharper--overall simply a better image.

rgb1.9waveform.thumb.png.3109083f8b57436562ffc6cc145b9ba7.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs
4 minutes ago, KnightsFan said:

This was manual exposure. In the two shots I posted above, I did not do any exposure compensation. Both are at ISO 1600, f8, and 1/50. I also did the test compensating for exposure, and the same clipping occurred at the same point.

I actually did a series of tests last weekend, both adjusting the ISO to compensate for the decreased brightness and not compensating, trying it with the RGB sliders at 0.5, 1, and 1.99. Everything was manual exposure.

It was apparent to me that by setting the sliders to 1.99, you do get increased dynamic range and detail (at least at ISO 1600 and compensating to 800.) Based on a few other posts, this may not be true at lower ISO values (e.g. 400, compensating down to 200). The following shot is at ISO 1600, RGB sliders at 1.0 (the same one from above). This time, both images are at a 100% crop to show details.

rgb1.0waveform.thumb.png.f3cb352b2bec768b5308e5e2289e45f0.png

 

This one is ISO 800, RGB sliders at 1.99. Notice how the yellow text on the book is no longer blown out, without a significant difference to the overall exposure. You can even see a teeny bit more of the metal in front of the light bulb. Furthermore, there is much more detail. Try saving both images and flipping between them quickly in your photo viewer. The text is sharper, the noise is sharper--overall simply a better image.

rgb1.9waveform.thumb.png.3109083f8b57436562ffc6cc145b9ba7.png

thanks for sharing. That is definitely impressive. I am trying to work out the color shift so that I am not losing color detail while boosting. If the noise is roughly the same as iso 800 as iso1600 without boost, you aren't sacrificing much to gain that extra dynamic range. Was this 0-255 or 16-235?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

0-255, Gamma DR. The noise is actually more pronounced in the second image, but I think that is mainly from the image being sharper (less noise reduction, as others have mentioned.)

I haven't done a lot with the new settings, but I haven't seen any abnormal color shifting to be honest. When I first got my NX1, I noticed that the color was not even across the luma range. For example, an underexposed whitecard will have a greenish tint, etc. It seems to me that the same rules apply.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, KnightsFan said:

0-255, Gamma DR. The noise is actually more pronounced in the second image, but I think that is mainly from the image being sharper (less noise reduction, as others have mentioned.)

I haven't done a lot with the new settings, but I haven't seen any abnormal color shifting to be honest. When I first got my NX1, I noticed that the color was not even across the luma range. For example, an underexposed whitecard will have a greenish tint, etc. It seems to me that the same rules apply.

I know I am not the first one to bring up the 0-255 vs 16-235 idea, but I have yet to see it make a difference in footage when editing in premiere. That being said, it is nice to see a lot of different members trialing this rgb boost concept and identifying quarks and characteristics. If there is indeed more dynamic range with boost, it may be safe to assume less at RGB values <1.00, as you have seen with the clipping of highlights. With that, it may still produce quite usable footage in a lot of situations. However, is it doing anything beyond dropping what would otherwise be overexposed into the clipped region? Or is there actually some benefit to shooting <1.00? I will play with it soon. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just took some dynamic range tests. I manipulated DR while shooting video by adjusting shutter speed and ISO while leaving aperture at f2.8. Here are my results:

 

PW=picture wizard 

test 1: PW off, gamma norm. 9-11 stops of dynamic range, IRE 0-100

test 2: PW off, gamma DR. 10-12 stops of dynamic range, IRE 0-100

following tests have gamma set to norm with PW on

test 3: PW on, RGB 1.99, contrast -5. 9-11 stops of dynamic range, IRE 2-100; will retest with smaller aperture to see if I can get another stop to 0. 

test 4: PW on, RGB 0.50, contrast -5. 9-11 stops of dynamic range, IRE 0-92. Hits a wall at 90 IRE, the next stop does nothing, the stop following then boosts IRE about 1, and the stop following that boosts IRE another 1. so wall at 90, then max 92 3 stops higher. Will need to test with more light to see if there are more stops below the 0 IRE test, since 0 IRE was measured 1 stop above minimum. 

test 5: PW on, RGB 0.05, contrast -5. 5-7 stops of dynamic range, IRE 0-38. Hits a wall at 34 IRE, the next stop does nothing, the following then boosts IRE about 2, and the stop following that boosts IRE another 2. So wall at 34, then max 38 3 stops higher. Will need to test with more light to see if there are more stops below the 0 IRE test, since 0 IRE was measured 5 stops above minimum. 

 

the reason for a range of DR of 3 is because the outlying stops of DR may be partial stops, though they are notable on the waveform monitor. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nice! In 4, I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "the stop following then boosts IRE about 1." Does it not hit a wall then? My (possibly incorrect) interpretation is that you are seeing some slight increases on the waveform, but not enough to really classify them as more stops of DR. If that is the case, do you think perhaps that it's the H265 compression algorithm making tiny adjustments that push a few pixels beyond 90 IRE wall?

I do think that it would be helpful to compare tests 3-5 with a test that has PW on, but keeps the RGB boost at 1.0. That way we can isolate what the RGB boost is doing.

Also, which Picture Wizard setting are you using?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, KnightsFan said:

Nice! In 4, I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "the stop following then boosts IRE about 1." Does it not hit a wall then? My (possibly incorrect) interpretation is that you are seeing some slight increases on the waveform, but not enough to really classify them as more stops of DR. If that is the case, do you think perhaps that it's the H265 compression algorithm making tiny adjustments that push a few pixels beyond 90 IRE wall?

I do think that it would be helpful to compare tests 3-5 with a test that has PW on, but keeps the RGB boost at 1.0. That way we can isolate what the RGB boost is doing.

Also, which Picture Wizard setting are you using?

will test soon. PW tests were with PW custom. It hits a wall at 90 and detail is lost (waveform narrows), but that wall goes up 1-2 IRE in the 2nd and 3rd stops higher. 

 

I will get some baseline tests with PW on with rgb at 1.00, as well as in gamma DR with rgb at 1.99 when I do my tests again. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

just did some follow ups. 

PW on, RGB 1.00, contrast -5. 9-11 stops, 0-100 IRE, just like with picture wizard off. 

PW on RGB 1.99 contrast -5, aperture closed 3 stops from previous tests: 10-12 stops of dynamic range, 0-100 IRE. It did indeed have another stop in it by closing the aperture. 

Gamma DR with RGB 1.99 with aperture closed 3 stops: 10-12 stops of dynamic range, 0-100 IRE. No difference in DR when compared to default Gamma DR settings, though the stop may have moved from the shadows to the highlights. 

PW on RGB at 0.50, contrast -5, using extra lighting. 9-11 stops, 0-92 IRE. There were indeed extra stops lying in the shadows from the previous test 4, though they require a LOT of light to be discerned. Still, highlights above 90 are clipped. 

PW on RGB at 0.05, contrast -5, using extra lighting. 7-9 stops, 0-38 IRE. Again, there were stops in the shadows, but this footage is essentially unusable since anything over 38 IRE is clipped. 

 

These were all done just with a grey card and adjusting exposure. Strictly testing dynamic range. I cannot speak to the quality of the image since it was just a grey card and I was looking at luminance only. I don't know if you set RGB low and under expose the shot if you can bring the entire image up in post and have usable footage. It may be possible if you drop contrast low enough, but if you peak at 38 IRE, that means all the info needs to be between 0 and 38, therefore my low contrast comment. Let me know if there is anything else I can test. It seems if you are shooting for highlights, the boost is useful in not overexposing, but gamma DR default has the same dynamic range. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What ISO was that? I wathced in 2K, there is a lot of noise in the image, the darks are very dark (my monitor is supposedly color corrected). I usually have contrast in -4, to be compatible with FilmConvert color profiles too. 

Your DIS occasionally plays some tricks on you also! Amazing place, you are very lucky living there (or near there!).

I usually have Master Black at 5, but I would lie if I said I have seen big differences between different settings. What Master Black anyone use?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Kisaha said:

What ISO was that? I wathced in 2K, there is a lot of noise in the image, the darks are very dark (my monitor is supposedly color corrected). I usually have contrast in -4, to be compatible with FilmConvert color profiles too. 

Your DIS occasionally plays some tricks on you also! Amazing place, you are very lucky living there (or near there!).

I usually have Master Black at 5, but I would lie if I said I have seen big differences between different settings. What Master Black anyone use?

can you remind me what master black level does exactly?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Kisaha said:

What ISO was that? I wathced in 2K, there is a lot of noise in the image, the darks are very dark (my monitor is supposedly color corrected). I usually have contrast in -4, to be compatible with FilmConvert color profiles too. 

Your DIS occasionally plays some tricks on you also! Amazing place, you are very lucky living there (or near there!).

I usually have Master Black at 5, but I would lie if I said I have seen big differences between different settings. What Master Black anyone use?

Was filmed with a tripod, no DIS, only 2 shots what you can see. ISO between 100 and later 1.600. Don't know if the 1.99RGB causes banding and or noise. I added grain with FilmConvert. I have MB on 10 ... because others do.

and agree, I do not live there in that touristic area. I live in the neighbourhood 5km from there. But nice to film it is.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, mnewxcv said:

It did indeed have another stop in it by closing the aperture.

So changing the aperture change the dynamic range? That sounds more like a property of the lens than the RGB boost.

19 hours ago, mnewxcv said:

It seems if you are shooting for highlights, the boost is useful in not overexposing, but gamma DR default has the same dynamic range. 

That's really interesting, because in my test it seemed to help quite a bit. Perhaps it is dependent on what ISO you are at? Which would not surprise me. I may try to do more of my own tests later today.

2 hours ago, Kisaha said:

What Master Black anyone use?

0. I did extensive tests when I got my NX1 and found no difference between any of the MB settings regarding what info is captured. In other words, if you shoot with the MB at 0 and adjust curves in post, you will end up with the same image as you would by shooting at a higher MB. I concluded that adjusting MB is only useful if you will not be color correcting.

I think the MB level simply raises the black level from IRE 0 to IRE x with a hard clipping at x, the inverse of lowering the RGB boost.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, KnightsFan said:

So changing the aperture change the dynamic range? That sounds more like a property of the lens than the RGB boost.

That's really interesting, because in my test it seemed to help quite a bit. Perhaps it is dependent on what ISO you are at? Which would not surprise me. I may try to do more of my own tests later today.

0. I did extensive tests when I got my NX1 and found no difference between any of the MB settings regarding what info is captured. In other words, if you shoot with the MB at 0 and adjust curves in post, you will end up with the same image as you would by shooting at a higher MB. I concluded that adjusting MB is only useful if you will not be color correcting.

I think the MB level simply raises the black level from IRE 0 to IRE x with a hard clipping at x, the inverse of lowering the RGB boost.

What do you mean it helped you quite a bit? What helped? 

And as for what I was saying, I needed to change aperture to gain that dynamic range because even with shutter speed at max and iso at min, it still wasn't getting ire to 0 without closing the aperture. So I needed to essentially move the range down one exposure. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I mean the RGB boost improved dynamic range in Gamma DR in my test.

Yeah, I totally get why you closed the aperture. I was surprised that closing the aperture  changed the dynamic range. I'd just never really considered it before, but it seems plausible that using different apertures could in fact affect the dynamic range of the scene that is captured.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No Dslr Canon, Nikon, Sony, Panasonic or others can make me feel the emotions of the Samsung NX1.
The Samsung should continue to produce their camera even without economic profit and only the camera body with lens mount Canon, Nikon, or other just to tell camera manufacturers and users "we exist and we are the best".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, KnightsFan said:

I mean the RGB boost improved dynamic range in Gamma DR in my test.

Yeah, I totally get why you closed the aperture. I was surprised that closing the aperture  changed the dynamic range. I'd just never really considered it before, but it seems plausible that using different apertures could in fact affect the dynamic range of the scene that is captured.

Let me try to be clear. By using rgb boost in gamma Dr, I did not achieve more stops of dynamic range. However, it appeared that I gained a stop in the highlights, and therefore I conclude that the "range" of stops shifted one stop from the shadows to the highlights, so the number of stops was the same, though the range was not the exactly the same range. Hope that makes sense. 

 

And the only reason I needed to change aperture was because my scene was exposed so high. This coupled with the rgb boost made the scene overexposed at all levels. For instance, I had a middle ground exposure, and 7 stops up and 7 stops down for testing, a range of 15 stops including the middle. But with the rgb boost, I was getting full over exposure 4 stops up, and each of the stops under middle were fine, resulting in 11 stops right? 9-11 depending how you measure. But by closing aperture slightly and make the scene darker for the test, I was able to get an extra stop or 2 above mid point, and reach true black below, resulting in 10—12, like gamma Dr. 

So back to the rgb boost within gamma Dr profile, you did in fact gain a stop in the highlights, as you showed, but you still had the same number of stops, indicating you lost one from the shadows. That being said, 0-100 ire was still achievable so maybe there is a use for both settings in different circumstances depending on scene lighting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I understand what you're saying, but it's not matching with my observations.

What I am doing is shooting high dynamic range scenes that include both pure black and pure white. I've shot it every way I can think of, including using a clickless aperture to slowly adjust exposure, and then picking the frames that have either the same black point or the same white point. Using the RGB boost consistently gives me slightly more dynamic range, and a noticeable increase in sharpness. Perhaps the difference we're experiencing is that I am changing the ISO: comparing RGB 1 at ISO 800 vs RGB 1.99 at ISO 400, adjusting the aperture by minuscule margins both ways to ensure equal white or black points.

So my theory is that reducing the ISO is what's giving it the slight edge with whatever internal logic the camera has.

Compensating with ISO makes the most to me, since I want to test camera settings independent of the lens. I might try compensating with shutter speed at some point.

Also, just another note about my observations: it's not a full stop of dynamic range added. Nowhere close. Perhaps it's not even more dynamic range per se, but just better color response and sharpness (from a lower ISO?). Looking at individual color waveforms, it might not even be a uniform change between all three channels.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's a quick little spot I shot for a local restaurant's facebook cover yesterday, very quick turnaround because those Sammy colors are so gorgeous! This is basically right out of camera, only a tiny bit of tweaking on a few shots. Normal gamma, color sliders at 1.99, sharpness -10, contrast -4, saturation -2, on both the NX1 and NX500 (the only difference being the master black level on the NX1 was at 15 and obviously the NX500 doesn't have this setting). While this isn't showcasing of increased dynamic range per say, I do really like the way it came out looking. 

password is jacks

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...