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Andrew Reid

Sony A7R III review - the BBC fixed Sony's colour!

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I would like to return to two of the original premises of this thread - that Sony color is now "better" because you can shoot in HLG with the REC2020 color space and that HLG is easy to grade. Note that REC2020 and REC709 are both standards and both of these color spaces are available. That is, it has always been true that SONY accommodated color standards set by others (REC709). S-Gamut is their own, but not REC709.

First, I assume that we are still having to view video in REC709. If we view video in HLG, then shooting in HLG is great. But, few will do that. 

So, the fact that one can shoot in REC2020 color can hardly (easily or automatically) result in good REC709 color. REC709 color is a subset of REC2020, and REC2020 color does not nicely translate into REC709 color just because you view it on a REC709 screen. Nor is translating REC2020 to REC709 in post simple at all. Thus, it is not easy to grade HLG to make a video that looks good in REC709 unless you know the exact math that makes REC2020 translate to REC709.

Of course "looks good" is the issue here. Let's start with accuracy or realistic as one notion of looking good. REC2020->REC709 is not easy if one is looking to get the most accurate color for REC709 screens. Maybe someone likes the look of REC2020 as viewed in REC709. But to say that look is "better" is completely subjective.

If you prefer the gamma curve in HLG, you can play with that. But then why not combine the HLG gamma with REC709 color if the ultimate viewing is going to be in REC709?

OK, here is a comparison of the same scenes shot in HLG and in REC709. Four scenes. For each, the first was shot in HLG (HLG gamma and REC2020 Color) the second in Standard (REC709 gamma and color). If you watch this on a standard TV or monitor you can assess how HLG clips look viewed in REC709. If you watch this on a TV and *set* it to HLG, you can see the HLG clips as they are meant to be seen and get HDR. The HLG clips underwent no post-processing; the REC709 (Standard ) clips had to be re-rendered to merge with the HLG clips but no other post-processing was done. That is why there are no titles in the video - to avoid processing.

This was shot using the Sony FS5, which can also now shoot in HLG. I chose the standard one, not the Sony HLG variants. Does anyone think the HLG clips have better color?

I will later post a video that displays the transformed HLG clips to conform to REC709, using Catalyst Browse. One can see how ell HLG converted lokks in REC709.

 

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs

Hi Andrew,

Quick question, it's driving me nuts" focus behavior in video mode on the A7M2 (as compared to the A7RM3)...

Whatever I do and try: focus behavior in the A7M2 is limited to face follow of object tracking, or the object / talent has to stay in the middle. All settings for focus do not apply in video mode 9unless you push the shutter button and refocus. if the object is off center the video will focus on what is in the center.

Do you mean to say: this has all been fixed in the A7Riii ? Does it use the pre selected focus moder (wide, zone, centre, flexioble spot) and use that. because there is no way to get that to work in the A7ii.

I have tried everything, if you have any trick up your sleve, please let me know. I now reside to focus and switch to manual, in order to keep focus on objects off center... Occasioannly i repeat that.

Stefan 

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On 1/19/2018 at 12:27 PM, markr041 said:

I would like to return to two of the original premises of this thread - that Sony color is now "better" because you can shoot in HLG with the REC2020 color space and that HLG is easy to grade. Note that REC2020 and REC709 are both standards and both of these color spaces are available. That is, it has always been true that SONY accommodated color standards set by others (REC709). S-Gamut is their own, but not REC709.

First, I assume that we are still having to view video in REC709. If we view video in HLG, then shooting in HLG is great. But, few will do that. 

So, the fact that one can shoot in REC2020 color can hardly (easily or automatically) result in good REC709 color. REC709 color is a subset of REC2020, and REC2020 color does not nicely translate into REC709 color just because you view it on a REC709 screen. Nor is translating REC2020 to REC709 in post simple at all. Thus, it is not easy to grade HLG to make a video that looks good in REC709 unless you know the exact math that makes REC2020 translate to REC709.

Of course "looks good" is the issue here. Let's start with accuracy or realistic as one notion of looking good. REC2020->REC709 is not easy if one is looking to get the most accurate color for REC709 screens. Maybe someone likes the look of REC2020 as viewed in REC709. But to say that look is "better" is completely subjective.

If you prefer the gamma curve in HLG, you can play with that. But then why not combine the HLG gamma with REC709 color if the ultimate viewing is going to be in REC709?

OK, here is a comparison of the same scenes shot in HLG and in REC709. Four scenes. For each, the first was shot in HLG (HLG gamma and REC2020 Color) the second in Standard (REC709 gamma and color). If you watch this on a standard TV or monitor you can assess how HLG clips look viewed in REC709. If you watch this on a TV and *set* it to HLG, you can see the HLG clips as they are meant to be seen and get HDR. The HLG clips underwent no post-processing; the REC709 (Standard ) clips had to be re-rendered to merge with the HLG clips but no other post-processing was done. That is why there are no titles in the video - to avoid processing.

 

This was shot using the Sony FS5, which can also now shoot in HLG. I chose the standard one, not the Sony HLG variants. Does anyone think the HLG clips have better color?

I will later post a video that displays the transformed HLG clips to conform to REC709, using Catalyst Browse. One can see how ell HLG converted lokks in REC709.

 

Man these newer cameras are just scary good at video now. God what one to buy even if you had a good bit of money?

From the GH5 up, even the 1' Sensor cameras, crazy good stuff.

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On 1/14/2018 at 7:45 AM, jahwah said:

On every post I read about a camera (not just Sony!), here or on other sites, there is a comment like this. I'm just not sure what you mean. Can you post a link to a digital video image that doesn't look fake to you and elaborate on what looks "fake" to you in this video? 

I guess it's the emperors new clothes here, the Sony Image has this murky brown magenta look to it which I don't like. I don't need to post anyone to prove it, just open your eyes! It gives the image a fake look that is distracting, like when you look at video cam image, the first thing you think is, oh that was shot on a videocam! Every time you look at a Sony video you will now see it, and think the same!! It comes from working with sony cameras almost every day for 2 years but owning Canon and Pana Cameras and realising that image is far superior! I was hoping that it was a colour issue, but it still looks murky blacks and plasticky to me with the AR3! Video that doesn't have this problem is canon etc, any high end camera that is not sony, just google canon video. my 2c 

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On 22/01/2018 at 5:49 AM, Henry Gentles said:

I guess it's the emperors new clothes here, the Sony Image has this murky brown magenta look to it which I don't like. I don't need to post anyone to prove it, just open your eyes! It gives the image a fake look that is distracting, like when you look at video cam image, the first thing you think is, oh that was shot on a videocam! Every time you look at a Sony video you will now see it, and think the same!! It comes from working with sony cameras almost every day for 2 years but owning Canon and Pana Cameras and realising that image is far superior! I was hoping that it was a colour issue, but it still looks murky blacks and plasticky to me with the AR3! Video that doesn't have this problem is canon etc, any high end camera that is not sony, just google canon video. my 2c 

How is this even constructive? We’re all here to show and learn what technology today is capable of. There’s no bad camera in the market today. We still capture visuals with them or another. Yesterday, today, tomorrow... they’re just the tools we use. :)

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I really doubt all the people that have bought the later Sony A7 series cameras just don''t give a crap about color output. They Have gotten better. I have a Sony RX10 and it has the dreaded, "Gee everything is dull Green" look to it. And I'll be damned if you really can get rid of it.

But Sony, Like Panasonic have both gotten better lately. Canon is still Canon, like them or not. If you like Orange Reds you are in business. But for people shots they are the way to go.

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Dustin Abbott has uploaded a video comparing Canon and Sony color. I don’t know what he’s shooting with here,  but the color and clarity of his YouTube video are pretty impressive. 

Edit: I believe he shot this episode with the a6500, which goes to illustrate that regardless of minor differences in image quality - functionality, file sizes, ergonomics and many, many other factors are equally important.

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Didn't have the time to read the thread, but was wondering how mark 3 colours compare to "normal colour rendition" cameras (as in canon/ nikon).

I am still using my A7s mark 1 with its horrible AF and colours (no, eoshd profiles did not cut it), a purchase that was heavily influenced by this blog, and which I deeply regretted soon after. Lately, I have been considering the possibility of upgrading at a similarly priced system. So, does it come even close to Nikon d850 in terms of colour?

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11 hours ago, yiomo said:

Didn't have the time to read the thread, but was wondering how mark 3 colours compare to "normal colour rendition" cameras (as in canon/ nikon).

I am still using my A7s mark 1 with its horrible AF and colours (no, eoshd profiles did not cut it), a purchase that was heavily influenced by this blog, and which I deeply regretted soon after. Lately, I have been considering the possibility of upgrading at a similarly priced system. So, does it come even close to Nikon d850 in terms of colour?

yeah, Sony colors require some tweaks by their own...

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