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Going back to CaNikon for Photography

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HANDS DOWN the D750 over the 5D3 for stills. Dynamic range on the 5D3 is a joke. 

Your canon lens are a no problem situation. Just easily sell them and buy used nikon lens instead. 

I do not understand why all the internet makes a big deal about being invested already to a lens system. You are not being married to your lenses guys..... 
I have changed 4-5 times of "system" and selling a few lenses has never been an issue.

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7 hours ago, wolf33d said:

HANDS DOWN the D750 over the 5D3 for stills. Dynamic range on the 5D3 is a joke. 

Your canon lens are a no problem situation. Just easily sell them and buy used nikon lens instead. 

I do not understand why all the internet makes a big deal about being invested already to a lens system. You are not being married to your lenses guys..... 
I have changed 4-5 times of "system" and selling a few lenses has never been an issue.

Not all photographic situations require large DR and the 5D3's DR is more than adequate for most situations.

You loose money when you swop systems unless you downgrade or buy less lenses. Investment in a lens system IS a big deal for most people. My Canon lens system has multiple times more financial value than my camera bodies.  Camera bodies are short term assets with limited lifespans due to sensor tech evolution where as lenses are largely a mature technology and a long term investment.

Not everyone has just a 'few' lenses nor a large fund to swop systems '4-5' times either.......

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Then you need to work on your buying/selling skills ;)

I switch systems all the time and make sure to turn profit on most of the lenses.

36 minutes ago, Shirozina said:

You loose money when you swop systems...

No you make money. It all depends on what you paid for them in the first place.

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@Mattias Burling If you lived in Vietnam, you'd see that buying and selling micro four thirds lenses and bodies is a loser's game. And even trying not to lose your shirt letting go of popular brands like Canon and Nikon is tough here. I've been trying to sell some other stuff from around the house for forever. I've come to the realization that even if I bought a brand new fully spec'd iMac for $4,000 today and turned around and tried selling it tomorrow for $800 on eBay or Craigslist here, nobody would bite.

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1 hour ago, Mattias Burling said:

Then you need to work on your buying/selling skills ;)

I switch systems all the time and make sure to turn profit on most of the lenses.

No you make money. It all depends on what you paid for them in the first place.

Obviously with enough  time you can find some fool  who will buy a lens for more than the average market value and another desperate person who will sell a lens for less than the average market value. and this is also just selling privately with all the risks that entails.If you buy and sell on Ebay you get hit with charges and if you use a dealer they have profit margins. Also if you buy new - good luck on selling at a higher price when it's second hand. 

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Back to the topic: For mirrorless photography, we're currently dealing with the issues that...

  • the most fully developed system (MFT) is partly limited by its sensor size (for high-end studio photography, high-resolution landscape photography and low-light photography, for example);
  • the most fully developed APS C-System (Fuji X) is limited where APS-C is used professionally, i.e. high-speed sports photography (D500 and 7D territory); this also applies to the other existing APS-C mirrorless systems (Sony and Canon) which, on top of that, suffer from a lack of native lenses;
  • the only existing full frame system (Sony) has major ergonomic issues and flaws in practical use;
  • the most high-end system (Fuji GFX) is too expensive, even for professional photographers.

This leaves a big window of opportunity for CaNikon to 'nail it' with new mirrorless full frame systems that carry over all the benefits of their DSLRs (ergonomics, robustness, good JPEG color), even if they're late in the game.

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3 minutes ago, cantsin said:

This leaves a big window of opportunity for CaNikon to 'nail it' with new mirrorless full frame systems that carry over all the benefits of their DSLRs (ergonomics, robustness, good JPEG color), even if they're late in the game.

But CaNikon are stuck with a legacy lens system designed for use on a DSLR - should they dump their current lens systems and upset a huge customer base or make parallel lens systems ? Both are financially risky.

Sony doesn't have "major ergonomic issues and flaws in practical use"  - just saying......

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@cantsin Samsung NX1, 15fps, ergonomics, robustness, good JPG, good 1080p with amazing rolling shutter, good 120fps video, 28mgpxls BSI sensor etc they are just off the game, but that system existed for a while, and a few of us still using it (Andrew Reid also)

@Shirozina yes they do. The older ones at least.

 

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51 minutes ago, Shirozina said:

Sony doesn't have "major ergonomic issues and flaws in practical use"  - just saying......

That's my perspective as someone who uses an A7s as his main photography camera. Others have mentioned those issues here before, but to just quickly summarize them: focus point selection, logic of the menu system, inability to map important camera functions (such as silent shutter vs. mechanical shutter) to function buttons, robustness/proofing of the camera housing, battery life, out-of-the-camera colors and JPEG quality.

51 minutes ago, Shirozina said:

But CaNikon are stuck with a legacy lens system designed for use on a DSLR - should they dump their current lens systems and upset a huge customer base or make parallel lens systems ? Both are financially risky.

Given the fact that high-end mirrorless cameras such as the G9, Olympus OM-D and Fuji XT-2 barely have size advantages over APS-C DSLRs, the whole idea of mirrorless cameras as modern-day rangefinders seems to have taken a backseat. Especially for professional full-frame mirrorless cameras, people will not really care whether their cameras could be more compact. CanNikon could just stick to their current lens system and do something creative with the space left by the abandoned mirror box - for example, build ND filters into the camera body.

Alternatively, they could introduce new mirrorless mounts that are electronically compatible to their existing DSLR mounts (just as MFT is electronically compatible to Four Thirds and e-mount is electronically compatible to A-mount) and offer 'official' adapters, just like Sony, Panasonic and Olympus do.

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8 minutes ago, cantsin said:

That's my perspective as someone who uses an A7s as his main photography camera. Others have mentioned those issues here before, but to just quickly summarize them: focus point selection, logic of the menu system, inability to map important camera functions (such as silent shutter vs. mechanical shutter) to function buttons, robustness/proofing of the camera housing, battery life, out-of-the-camera colors and JPEG quality.

I had an A7s for video only and many of those were non issues. The reason I didn't use it for stills was that 12mp is not enough for most commercial jobs. I use A7r2's for stills and none of those issues bother me at all. No camera is perfect but to say Sony mirrorless cameras (I assumed you meant the whole system and not just a video orientated A7s) have 'major' issues and flaws is stretching it a bit far - maybe try the A7r3 which I think will address most if not all of your current problems?

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1 hour ago, Shirozina said:

Obviously with enough  time you can find some fool  who will buy a lens for more than the average market value and another desperate person who will sell a lens for less than the average market value. and this is also just selling privately with all the risks that entails.If you buy and sell on Ebay you get hit with charges and if you use a dealer they have profit margins. Also if you buy new - good luck on selling at a higher price when it's second hand. 

Some see problems others see solutions.

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1 hour ago, cantsin said:

Back to the topic: For mirrorless photography, we're currently dealing with the issues that...

  • the most fully developed system (MFT) is partly limited by its sensor size (for high-end studio photography, high-resolution landscape photography and low-light photography, for example);
  • the most fully developed APS C-System (Fuji X) is limited where APS-C is used professionally, i.e. high-speed sports photography (D500 and 7D territory); this also applies to the other existing APS-C mirrorless systems (Sony and Canon) which, on top of that, suffer from a lack of native lenses;
  • the only existing full frame system (Sony) has major ergonomic issues and flaws in practical use;
  • the most high-end system (Fuji GFX) is too expensive, even for professional photographers.

This leaves a big window of opportunity for CaNikon to 'nail it' with new mirrorless full frame systems that carry over all the benefits of their DSLRs (ergonomics, robustness, good JPEG color), even if they're late in the game.

I hear you. There is a huge place for DSLRs that mirrorless haven't been able to fill.

DSLRs are still outselling mirrorless to consumers and on the pro scene its still the standard.

BTW, this thread inspired me to do a video on the topic. I'm starting to get all DSLR nostalgic.

1 minute ago, Shirozina said:

and some are just delusional :)

Enough, its not my fault you choose to be a negative nancy instead. I wont debate this with you.

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46 minutes ago, Mattias Burling said:

 

Enough, its not my fault you choose to be a negative nancy instead. I wont debate this with you.

Agree on that - no debate possible when someone has irrational ideas.

For everyone else you may want to finance that new bit of kit by selling all your existing gear and then buying the same gear back at a lower price and then using the difference to buy your new gear. Infact if you do this on a regular basis you will have quite a tidy income stream. Come to think of it I'm amazed why more people don't bother doing this on a regular basis - probably because they are ' negative nancie's' like me

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14 minutes ago, Mattias Burling said:

I like the ignore user function.

On YouTube Mattias is a simple man who loves his cameras and dog.  Might be a wife or girlfriend there too.  On this forum, he's just another raving lunatic ;)  Cracks me up!  We all need a place to let our lunacy run free.  Thank you Andrew :)  Anyway, I'm running out of cameras to try.  I want to sell most of them but each camera has a "thing".  The C100 perfect video in any light.  The 7D shoots raw.  The A6300 does 4K and let me run it all day through the USB.  Have an a6000 too. The EOS-M3 (a recent edition) has a pop up LCD, mic in, and is small.  The X3000 is really portable and has great stabilization.  The GR--love poem there.  A nikon D80--might want for my copy stand.  An A7R, for real estate and portraits.  However, I'd LOVE an D850.  I'd love a Leica.  I want every camera Mattias talks about.  

A point.  I lose some money on each camera I sell.  It's the cost of my lunatic hobby.  I estimate that it costs me $1,200 to $2,400 a year.  It's part of my photo hobby.  If I was a full-on professional photographer, however, it would be bad business.  Each camera has its strengths and weaknesses.  None is the clear-cut best.  So it's time wasted figuring it out when it would be better time learning how to deal with camera X's limitations.  Or just spending time preparing to take better photos. 

I hate myself when I spend time on this forum.  But here I am :)     Where were we...? :)

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4 hours ago, cantsin said:

That's my perspective as someone who uses an A7s as his main photography camera. Others have mentioned those issues here before, but to just quickly summarize them: focus point selection, logic of the menu system, inability to map important camera functions (such as silent shutter vs. mechanical shutter) to function buttons, robustness/proofing of the camera housing, battery life, out-of-the-camera colors and JPEG quality.

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I use my A7s as my main photography camera too and I disagree with just about everyone of those points.

Focus point-   is that really an issue?   I hit the centre button to get up the focus area, hit it again to get the focus point (I usually use small flexible spot) and use the four way buttons to move it where I want.     Very simple and easy and I find it easier to use than the Canon 7D was.    If two quick presses of a button right where your thumb is takes too long you can always change it to one press by setting the centre button to focus settings instead.

There is a LOT in the menus and to me they are well placed (though I don't have to go into the menus very often when out and about with the camera).

Inability to map important functions?     Not all buttons can be set to all functions but geez there is more that can be set than most cameras and while it is true you can not set silent shutter to any button,  is there a list of cameras that CAN (it will be a short list)?     Is silent shutter something that NEEDS to be set rapidly?    I have only used it a few times in more than three years and it is still fairly quick to set if you are familiar with the menus (it is very useful though when needed).   

Looking further, the control wheel can be set to 4 things, custom buttons 1, 2 and 3, centre button, AEL and AF/MF buttons to well over 50 things each, left, right and down buttons to 44 things each, and if you use a lens like the FE 85 1.8 you get even more customization with the focus hold button being able to be set to over 50 things too.

The camera is not built to the same level as more expensive Pro DSLRs but it is as robust as any other that I have used/owned other than early film SLRs.

It is not a weather sealed camera but is a bit better than being completely unsealed (and besides many of my lenses are not sealed anyway including my most expensive Canon L).

Battery life is an issue for some but I am still using the original batteries I got with it as well as an even older one from the A7 I had earlier and even after four years of constant use I still only needed one battery to shoot a couple of bands Saturday night at different venues with around 300 photos and well over 60% left.     I take a couple with me in case but most of the time, one is enough for a days photo shooting.        I just make sure and charge my batteries after use.         For video, yes, I would want all three of my batteries for a gig but I only record the odd song or two.

Jpegs and colours, again is subjective but I don't seen any huge difference to any other camera system I have used (which is most of them).

 The "issues" with the camera as I see it are not so much problems as limits- IE not a camera for tracking or fast AFC and if you need more than 12mp but it never was meant to be.

If you applied the same logic to many other cameras that don't have many of the things as an A7s you could say just about any camera is not much good.

 

 

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@nooneIf 7s is so good, I am wondering why most of us are waiting eagerly for the IIIrd version, and Sony had a second version out almost immediately - in camera's timeline.

We too have used a lot of cameras and systems in our time and A7s, honestly, from the perspective of a professional videographer is one of the worst, but with the best High definition high ISO performance, and then, C100 is one of my favorite cameras ever (where it counts) and is definitely on par with the 7s on low light performance. Also, it wasn't that far away in price when new, considering that you are taking the camera, putting 2 SD cards, and you shoot from day to night without worrying about anything at all.

There are ways around most issues with tools and equipment, but some cameras have far less issues, and when you are a pro, and run and gun, in the heat of the action you want to worry about as less as possible. Ergonomics and battery life are very important, par example. 

I know people going Fuji and m43 for pro photography, not one to A7s.

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