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Andrew Reid

Magic Lantern Raw Video

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On 4/7/2018 at 12:53 PM, webrunner5 said:

Hey guys, Finally joined up after watching for a while. I'm Webrunner5's Son in the -Reals Life- and stuff like that. Anyway, I'm trying to understand how this whole ML thing really works, but the more I read, the more I'm confused about a few things. This buffer on the camera and the write speed is #1. Ok for the 5d III, what can I actually record say....10 minutes of Raw video without something filling up or stopping? #2. This crop factor, how does this factor into Compressed and Uncompressed Raw on the 5d III? Finally question #3: I keep seeing the 70D is compatible with ML....but isn't? Can someone help me understand a few things, because it looks amazing and I'm prepared to really jump into Canon here, but there is always a catch....

Thank you for your time and knowledge. 

Brian.

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On 5/31/2018 at 2:52 PM, brianvp1985 said:

Hey guys, Finally joined up after watching for a while. I'm Webrunner5's Son in the -Reals Life- and stuff like that. Anyway, I'm trying to understand how this whole ML thing really works, but the more I read, the more I'm confused about a few things. This buffer on the camera and the write speed is #1. Ok for the 5d III, what can I actually record say....10 minutes of Raw video without something filling up or stopping? #2. This crop factor, how does this factor into Compressed and Uncompressed Raw on the 5d III? Finally question #3: I keep seeing the 70D is compatible with ML....but isn't? Can someone help me understand a few things, because it looks amazing and I'm prepared to really jump into Canon here, but there is always a catch....

Thank you for your time and knowledge. 

Brian.

#1 The 5D MkIII can record until the card fills up as long as the data rate doesn't exceed the maximum write speed of the card. It tops out at around 90MB/s, fast enough for 1080p 24p 14bit uncompressed.

#2 Resolutions above 1080p are cropped and have a higher data rate making compression or lower than 14bit recording necessary.

#3 The 70D ML firmware is in development, I haven't been following the development closely so I can't say how usable it is. There's a 70D thread on the ML forum you can check out.

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Looks like the magic lantern developers are getting close to 3k raw video recording on the 100D and 700D. I'll hopefully be able to start investigating the EOS M too as that's a similar camera. One issue at the moment is that 10 and 12 bit lossless are unsupported at this resolution, so record times are very short, and it's all extremely experimental at the moment.

Here's the link to the 100D thread re: this topic: https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=16040.msg202627#msg202627

 

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6 minutes ago, mercer said:

@kaylee looks cool, very cinematic! Good luck!!!

thank you thank u!!! theres already been shenanigans... broken air conditioner, legit had to reschedule... actress just took another (much better) job... ::sigh:::

6 minutes ago, mercer said:

how do you expose ML Raw! Do you ETTR using the Raw Histogram and ETTR Hint?

mercer, i dont know how to do anything, but those screen grabs actually absolutely represent some very dicey exposing 

those shots were at iso 6400, normally exposed, and then i pulled them way down in post... seemed to take care of the noise nicely (???)

literally no idea what im doing tho lol. wouldnt have shot that high but..... it happened

edit: and im totally exposing by eye, based on my tests. im...... a moron

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5 minutes ago, kaylee said:

thank you thank u!!! theres already been shenanigans... broken air conditioner, legit had to reschedule... actress just took another (much better) job... ::sigh:::

Almost every actor I have thought I had for my film hasn’t panned out... it’s just the nature of zero budget filmmaking. But the ones I have gotten believe in the project and will do anything to help. 

 

8 minutes ago, kaylee said:

mercer, i dont know how to do anything, but those screen grabs actually absolutely represent some very dicey exposing 

those shots were at iso 6400, normally exposed, and then i pulled them way down in post... seemed to take care of the noise nicely (???)

literally no idea what im doing tho lol. wouldnt have shot that high but..... it happened

 edit: and im totally exposing by eye, based on my tests. im...... a moron

I’m looking at them on my phone and they look good, I’ll go on the computer in a little bit and take a closer look.

Well, it’s good to know you can go up to 6400, I try to stay at 1600 or less but I have stole a shot at 3200.

I spent years in post staring at waveforms and vectorscopes but when I stopped relying solely on them and trusting my eyeballs, I started noticing an improvement. I still use scopes as a reference... you have to, but in the end if it looks good to the eye...

Some of my favorite ML Raw videos have been exposed to the middle... or properly exposed. And then there are great ones that are ETTRd...

I have been shooting high contrast scenes in available and practical lighting, so I have been getting a ton of shadow noise if I don’t ETTR. But I also notice a slight color shift by pushing it too far to the edge, so I usually drop it back a notch on the Raw Histogram and it seems to be working fairly okay.

But I don’t really know what I’m doing... I just know I have better images now than I did with any other camera before... so whatevs...

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17 minutes ago, mercer said:

Almost every actor I have thought I had for my film hasn’t panned out... it’s just the nature of zero budget filmmaking. But the ones I have gotten believe in the project and will do anything to help. 

I kno right. that guy in those shots has been GREAT. so cool. one lady ditched me, and im still yet to meet the third actor in person, so im 50/50 on this one so far lol

and now that i think about it, heres the reality of my stupid way of exposing:

i dont like to have stuff on the screen, peaking, histogram, anything, i prefer a clean view to having that stuff. SO, im exposing by eye, and what i do is... well, it depends

if i know i want to pull maximum dr out of the shot, im gonna ETTR as much as i think i can get away with. but for most shots, i just expose so that the highlights clip where i want on the screen, and that seems to give me plenty of room to recover highlights in post. super ghetto, i kno

what i mean is: any shot where i want anything in it to clip, i just adjust to that end with whats on the screen, so its clipping the way i want exposure-wise right on the screen. in 5dr raw there isnt a ton of dr to work with, but i like the way it clips as long as its exposed correctly, u kno? does that make any sense 😂 

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@kaylee so are you using zebras to show the clipping, or are your eyes that trained to see it without any exposure aid?

I wish there was a way to set the waveform to a physical button, instead of it being on screen... with the tests I tried with it, I thought it worked well for skin tones, but it’s so small it’s kinda pointless. I find zebras distracting, so I use the Raw Histogram in the upper right corner because I tend not to compose any subject in that space of the frame.

2 minutes ago, Nikkor said:

I think that's the way to go, and if the shadows are too dark, you fill them with some discrete light.

Can you elaborate?

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3 minutes ago, mercer said:

@kaylee so are you using zebras to show the clipping, or are your eyes that trained to see it without any exposure aid?

I wish there was a way to set the waveform to a physical button, instead of it being on screen... with the tests I tried with it, I thought it worked well for skin tones, but it’s so small it’s kinda pointless. I find zebras distracting, so I use the Raw Histogram in the upper right corner because I tend not to compose any subject in that space of the frame.

Can you elaborate?

I seems to me that's an super easy way to balance DR, let it clip where you want it, and then fill the shadows with subtle light if the contrast is too high to avoid noise.

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3 minutes ago, mercer said:

so are you using zebras to show the clipping, or are your eyes that trained to see it without any exposure aid?

no im not using any exposure aid 😂😂😂

i can only attribute this to being really familiar with the stills from the camera – i knooo its not the same, but its similar – and ive been shooting lil practice clips for months, messing around in post just trying to get a feel for it

3 minutes ago, Nikkor said:

I seems to me that's an super easy way to balance DR, let it clip where you want it, and then fill the shadows with subtle light if the contrast is too high to avoid noise.

yup, thats the idea~! although in practice its kind of a "concept" i reach for 😂

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4 minutes ago, Nikkor said:

I seems to me that's an super easy way to balance DR, let it clip where you want it, and then fill the shadows with subtle light if the contrast is too high to avoid noise.

I’ve been trying not to let anything clip, unless the light source is in the shot. 

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3 minutes ago, mercer said:

I’ve been trying not to let anything clip, unless the light source is in the shot. 

absolutely. im basically talking about light sources, speculars. or creatively you might want to do something different, but i mean "whites", if you will

edit: and i can just kind of judge how much i can recover the highlights based on where they clip onscreen

edit 2: im gonna write a guide called The Laziest Way to Shoot Raw

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I wish I could just use Canon’s in camera meter and not have to worry about any of the ML aids.

I will say the ML Histobar is pretty cool because I shoot in 2:35 and it is placed in the bottom letterbox of the screen, so it doesn’t affect any composition... but it messes up the audio meters...

4 minutes ago, kaylee said:

absolutely. im basically talking about light sources, speculars. or creatively you might want to do something different, but i mean "whites", if you will

edit: and i can just kind of judge how much i can recover the highlights based on where they clip onscreen

edit 2: im gonna write a guide called The Laziest Way to Shoot Raw

Oh, okay... a-doy... I get it now.

Btw, I would buy that guide because I aim for lazy but usually end up with unprepared and just bad... I am kinda making it work though. 

But one of the best things about the 5D3 and ML Raw... you pretty much have to be color blind (or use a MacBook Air like I do) to mess it up... it really is the Dummies Camera for Cinematic Images...

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26 minutes ago, kaylee said:

😂 it so is

80% of the time you just point it at stuff and everything looks amazing

Yup, I often refer to it as a point and shoot cinema camera and if you have a Canon IS lens, it’s even easier for certain projects... or mindsets.

BTW, what lens did you use for those shots?

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22 minutes ago, kaylee said:

you guessed it

im using a 24-105 IS L for the entire short~! tempted to have less light and wider apertures, but "movies are shot at f/4" and all

Yeah, unfortunately due to family health issues I was forced to sell my 24-70mm f/4. I’ve been using the 28mm 1.8 and 50mm 1.4 in its place and I am pretty amazed with the results but needless to say, I am saving up to buy another 24-70mm.

I can go handheld with the 28mm pretty steadily but I really miss the IS from the 24-70mm and 35mm f/2. I may just end up getting the 35mm f/2 and hold off on the zoom... idk.

However, this recent financial issue made me realize I really don’t need as many lenses as I used to think I needed. Basically a modern Canon zoom and a prime and then a small set of vintage lenses and I should be golden.

4 hours ago, kaylee said:

i am finally shooting my little ml raw film omg wish me luck guyzzz

tumblr_pa9dvuaOjL1u0cxmro1_1280.png

tumblr_pa9dvuaOjL1u0cxmro2_1280.png

I took a look at these on my computer and I enlarged them and they still look pretty clean... I don't even notice any JPEG schmegma... 

Do you think dropping the shadows and the desaturation eliminated the noise that well? In my shots, I would totally have a bunch of chroma noise in that shot... hmm... I'll have to do some tests because maybe the chroma noise is a byproduct of ETTR?

Interesting...

I will say that the top shot may need to be brightened a touch... he is really lost in the darkness... or is it just my screen?

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