currensheldon

Even in image capture, I didn’t see a huge difference between 4k and HD. 

However, 8k is a huge leap forward. It really does feel like the jump from SD to HD, which I remember being a bit mind boggling. 

The license swap would be awesome. The RF Mount and L-Mount are the two most exciting mounts, and I love what Canon is doing with the RF Mount. Canon can make great glass, that's for sure. And they do make the best workhorse doc cams around (C100 and C300) if they would just lean into that a bit more. 

The C200's cinema raw lite is the nicest image I've seen that isn't created by Arri or Red (for all the haters on here, Red's image is indeed incredible). But the Canon CRM file sizes are huge compared to RedCode Raw and Black Magic Raw. For most work, the 8:1 and 12:1 raw compressions are the sweet spot for getting 95% of the raw quality and features and still having file sizes smaller than ProRes LT. 

Hopefully Canon can get by all of the Red patents and do more versions of their CRM (5:1, 8:1, 12:1) - and then we also get Red cameras with new mounts. Winners all around. 

Black Magic is doing so awesome things and I do love BM Raw. I find the EF mount disappointing and would have much preferred the RF Mount or L-Mount (if they even have access to those). Though, outside of BM Raw and a bit cheaper of price, there isn't much here that would tempt me over the S1H (which may have some form of raw).

S1H will have a flip out screen, should have IBIS, wayyy better battery life, has the dual XLR adapter, better form factor, way better stills camera, better autofocus (assuming the Pocket 6K is a single point, single shot AF), easier to use on gimbal, more lenses available via adapters, full-frame sensor, probably better low light if the S1 is anything to go by, more dynamic range, and a couple of other advantages I'm sure I'm missing.

Yes, you can save $1000+ by getting a Pocket 6K, but I think all of the above specifications are worth that and more. Black Magic should have used all of that EF-Mount real estate for an electronic ND filter - that would be game-changing. 

Still, Black Magic is doing an awesome job releasing some really cool cameras with a gorgeous image and really pushing raw - which is great. 

Oooooh external recorders that allow you to captures BM Raw on all the raw SDI and HDMI raw (Z6 and maaaaybe S1H) cameras would be awesome. 

Im going to switch to Da Vinci sometime soon anyway and I love BM Raw. 

9 minutes ago, Skip77 said:

I think the S1 will hold off with RAW external until after the S1H is introduced.  That will hurt sales of the S1H and also confuse marketing. 

Have you compared the S1 to the Z6? 

Looks like I might need to save up for the S1. Are the S1native lenses good for cine manual focus? 

And the release a camera and then wait for additional features to be added will not last long if companies keep doing this.  

The S1 lenses I’ve used (24-105 and 50mm) are both great for manual focus. The S1 has the option to change focus pulling into a linear style (rather than by wire/speed) so it works great. 

7 hours ago, Mattias Burling said:

There is one huge difference between Sony and Panasonic, lenses.

That Sigma is going to release their lenses is not enough. They need to have already done it before people will even start to care. There is a used S1 + kitzoom that's been sitting a few weeks on a shelf in a camera store in Stockholm at a very reasonable price. Every time I see it I go, "hmm maybe I should buy it". But then I remember it will mostly sit on my shelf, waiting for lenses.

If you find out that they do, please let me know so I can get some free cameras

Yes that's true. I'm heavily anticipating some more lenses. Granted, with manual focus video (which is what I mostly do), I don't mind using the Sigma adapter + EF lenses. 

The three new Sigma lenses that weren't on the roadmap was a pleasant surprise, but for photography/AF, really looking forward to the release of a 24-70mm f2.8 and some reasonably sized primes in the f1.8-f2 range for gimbal and photos. The Sigma 45mm f2.8 looks great, but really wish it was f2 - my favorite f-stop for the best combo of image quality, light gathering, and size/weight - like the Zeiss Loxia or Batis or Sony or Nikon's f1.8 line. All of these modern lenses are so good, that I really don't need that extreme pro-level sharpness that the f1.4 and f1.2 MONSTER lenses are offering.

It is pretty crazy to see Youtube and reviewers freak out when Sony releases any product (and Canon to a much smaller degree), even when Panasonic is releasing way more professional, capable tools with the most important attributes: - best image quality - best audio interface and audio quality - best ergonomics and general usability - best bit-depth, frame rates, etc - best IBIS in the business by far.

Yet, it seems everyone just keeps harping on the AF - which, with native glass, is still pretty darn good. But which I almost never use. And if I use a gimbal, I have it connected to a small focus control motor, which are very cheap with the Ronin-S or Ronin-SC or really anything else.

Hopefully people take notice soon. 

I am starting to wonder if Youtube reviewers are paid... definitely get a lot of free stuff for their "opinion" 

4 hours ago, ntblowz said:

Whoa RF mount!  Man I have to decide whether to stick with L mount or RF mount before I spend $$$ on lens. ?  Right now RF lens is more tempting until Sigma release more native mirrorless lens to make L mount more attractive.

True - I’m leaning L Mount but if Red puts out a mini cinema camera and/or Canon does the same with RF Mount, it definitely is tempting. 

Canon is crushing it with lens creation and adapters, and I’m sure a couple higher end RF cameras are right around the corner. 

We will see... 

Pretty cryptic (in Red style), but it looks like Komodo has an RF Mount and is something of a Z-Cam-like camera in the $5-8k range. Pretty interesting.

Under 2-pounds and less than 4-inches in every direction. 

https://www.newsshooter.com/2019/07/27/red-komodo-we-know-what-it-isnt-but-not-what-it-is/

Agree that camera companies have gotten pretty stale. Panasonic excites me with the S1H and what else may be in that camera.

I would say the Sigma FP is one of the more exciting cameras to be announced recently - at least it is different, interesting, super modular, and can be built out to your liking. Excited for the S1H + FP combo that I'll have soon enough. 

Weebil Lab was awesome at first because of its very portable size and being able to lock all axis. I had one around (along with my Ronin-S) for long-term travel work, but it is not nearly as strong and stable as the Ronin-S. Just tested the Ronin-SC and it seems much stronger. And it has the locking axis! Which, outside of the weight, was the main reason I loved the Weebil.

Go with the SC. 

2 hours ago, Kisaha said:

For years I am saying that the XC10/XC15 is a great form factor to build around, I am glad that more people see that and sad that noone has done it yet, not even Canon, that would be such a perfect design for a C100mkIII.

 

Exactly. A small C100 III like that would be great place for that line to go. Make it a doc/journalists workhorse that could also be an owner operator’s one man band camera. Just make sure to give it the RF Mount. 

More than anyone, I’d love to see this type of mini cinema camera from Fuji - they have the best lens lineup for Super35 sensor size by far. Or Panasonic with MFT Mount. 

- also I should say that if Panasonic could do it with the L Mount and full frame then by all means, please do. 

10 minutes ago, Skip77 said:

 

Did you say the EOS R is vastly superior?  

Nope - I meant the S1 is vastly superior compared to the other cameras it goes up against. Granted, it’s a bit more expensive so maybe it really is in a field by itself. 

We're not comparing the same thing here anymore. The Z7 and S1H are not in the same range because they are targeted to very different consumers. The S1H, as of now, has no Nikon counterpart.

S1 = A7III, Z6, EOS R (but is vastly superior to all of those IMO, so is really playing in a field by itself).

S1r = A7rIV, Nikon Z7. No Canon equivalent yet, but seemingly soon. 

S1H = A7sIII (if it is ever released). No Nikon and Canon equivalent. 

The S1H, when released, will really be one of a kind. It sits somewhere between the best mirrorless video cameras (S1, XT3) and the smaller cinema cameras (EVA-1, C200). Depending on what it has inside (things like raw or NDs), will dictate how much closer it is to a really inexpensive cinema camera or a more expensive mirrorless camera.

From the looks of it, it looks like Panasonic is going for a (relatively) inexpensive cinema camera. 

59 minutes ago, Thpriest said:

Maybe this is a stupid question, but will aps-c lenses like the sigma 18-35 1.8 work with this adaptor on the S1? I've seen people using it for video. I'd imagine it would vignette or is there some voodoo magic?

Have both and yep! They work great together. The S1 has an ASP-C crop mode and when the Sigma 18-35mm f1.8 or 50-100mm f1.8 are attached, the S1 automatically detects them and punches into the 1.5x crop. 

The nice thing about this setup is that the field of view is the same on 24fps and 60fps (since the 4K 60fps has the same crop). Plus the Sigma 18-35mm is still just one of the best lenses ever. And with the S1's stabilization, it's a very versatile lens. 

31 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

What model did you go for at that time?

After dropping the FS5 and Sony A7s combo, I had the C200 for awhile and used the GH5 as a b-cam. But jobs were asking for 10-bit 422 4K, so switched it over to the EVA-1/GH5 combo. Currently have the S1 as well and once the V-Log update arrives, will slowly move away from MFT gear.

If Canon had a 10-bit 4K RF C100 III and no-crop mirrorless, I'd strongly consider that. Same with Fuji if they had a mini cinema camera. 

But Panasonic seems to be my go-to for now. Going to lock down on something soon to just have for 3-4 years (until people start asking for more than 10-bit 4K) - but with all the new mounts and directions, might be a bit more before everything shakes out. Hoping EVA-2 with L-Mount arrives soon to go along with the S1H.

I bought into the numbers and spec game that Sony played for a couple of years (2015-2017). Used the A7s, A7rII, and FS5. 4K! 40+ megapixels! 240fps!

I call these the dead years. 

Yes, I got some good stuff with them and thanks to a great colorist, was able to grade some films so that it looked great. But the day to day shoots, the general travel photos, the one-man band work, the portfolio of work that doesn't have professional colorist attached to it just isn't even in the same ballpark image quality wise as something from a Canon or Panasonic. 

While you use a Sony, you don't really realize that there is something off - you just get used to it. My wake up call is when I looked at old, 8-bit HD footage from my Canon 60D that I shot in 2012/2013. It just looked so much nicer, natural, and beautiful. Quickly tested out some new systems, felt the same about the footage I was capturing on those, and dropped Sony as quick as I could.

Still love Canon and think they have the best CS and best image right out of the box, but Panasonic is very close and also give you the specs that Sony does. So, it's Panasonic for me right now. Maybe if Canon give us a 10-bit C100III with RF mount and a pro-body EOS R with 2020 video specs, they could come out ahead. But feels like Panasonic is the company that will give us what we want spec-wise while also giving us high image quality and color. 

10 minutes ago, Lars Steenhoff said:

Here's some S1 Vlog test footage I just shot on the ninja v, pro res hq, 

Shot with Zeiss 50mm zf.1

Sharpening at 0 

noise reduction at 0

Stills graded with FilmConvert fuji eterna

https://www.dropbox.com/s/can0ot1k98ogd7a/NINJAV_S001_S001_T066.MOV?dl=0

Awesome! How did you get a hold of the update already? 

31 minutes ago, Skip77 said:

That camera you describe does not exist even at $6k in a smaller form factor like the Z6 or S1, S1H.  

I like the Atomos / Nikon combination if the team up helps us get RAW 4K. 

That is correct. That's my point - it does not yet exist, but I think it would be popular. 

I think manufacturers leave out specifications from their mirrorless line in order to protect their higher-end cinema line, which are all larger cameras. Even the smaller cinema cameras, like the C100 or FS5, have either not updated into 4K (C100) or haven't really been updated in 4 years (FS5).

This leaves consumers who want/need 10-bit, 4K, 60fps, slow motion, etc with either a mirrorless camera in the $2k range (S1, S1H, GH5, XT3) but missing tons of features OR a large cinema camera (the smallest being the EVA-1) in the $6-7k range that is too big for what they want or make. 

--

With that said, why not just take the specifications of something like an EVA-1 and stick it in an S1H body? Including internal NDs and 10-bit codecs. Yes, that would take sales away from the EVA-1 (maybe?), so just charge more. 

The connection between size  and price seems like a total moot point. 

At this point, any camera that can do internal/external raw and have variable NDs inside will be worth the money. 

Yes, a lot of people use mirrorless cameras because they are cheaper and more affordable (and there are a ton of options for those users). But I also think there are plenty of people who would buy an S1H-sized camera for $6k+ if it included internal raw, internal NDs, timecode out, and all the nice EVA-1 codecs.

No need to cannibalize other cameras - just charge more and they both make money no matter which one people buy. I'm guessing you would see a lot of independent doc filmmakers, journalists, traveling cinematographers, etc picking up the mirrorless-sized version. I know I would personally love this. 

1 minute ago, androidlad said:

Tis sensor:

So where is the 9K, 24p 12-bit raw in the A7rIV!?

Despite Sony having a near monopoly on sensor-tech power, they obviously don't yet know how to harness it. Panasonic and Fuji seem to know how to do it with their processing know-how and camera bodies. Panasonic can take a Sony sensor and give us 10-bit 422 in 4K and soon to be 6K. Meanwhile, inside Sony's test-centers, the A7sIII is just exploding over and over again while they try to get it to do 8-bit 422.

Come to Panasonic! See the bright side! Leave the character-less dark side that is Sony and all of their terrible colors! Leave their 7th generation of 8-bit 420 crappy codec!

The S1 is here now! The S1H cometh! Even the lenses are coming! Leave Sony and come to the bright side! (and bring Zeiss with you...)

Speaking of MIA, where are the CF Express-capable slots? Both Nikon and Panasonic mentioned their mirrorless cameras will be able to accept CF Express, giving them plenty of speed for internal raw, but still nothing. Tired of Sony XQD being the only (expensive) game in town. 

I have to imagine the Sony A7sIII and Panasonic S1H are going to have some big codecs up their sleeve. For Panasonic, maybe it is just the 6K and that's what they'll use their CFExpress slot for (not that an SD Card couldn't do it). But with Nikon announcing ProRes Raw and with plenty of manufacturers waiting to release their CFExpress cards (ProGrade, EgoDisk, Delkin, Sony...), I have a feeling Sony and Panasonic will soon announce mirrorless cameras that can do some form of internal raw or high-end codec. 

Just really hope it isn't ProRes Raw unless they start playing nice with Da Vinci and offer some lower levels of compression (8:1, 12:1, etc) for actually manageable file sizes. 

Thanks for the footage Andrew. The V-Log, 10-bit update definitely looks awesome. Seeing different shots both under and overexposed is very helpful as well - seems that the V-Log and the S1 in general has plenty of space to grade and bring down highlights or bring up shadows. 

Love this shot which I took down more than full stop (-1.2 in Lumetri), added the Eterna LUT and some contrast and tons of details in the highlights. Held up beautifully and looks great. 

This thread makes me very excited for my update to arrive and even more excited for the S1H - if they can pull this off with their “hybrid” model, the video centric model should be pretty amazing.