newfoundmass

8 minutes ago, SRV1981 said:

Any media I can see to notice the difference? I can’t find much difference between 10-but 422 and 420

If you don't notice a difference then why are you asking? 😉

6 hours ago, SRV1981 said:

Is there an appreciably noticeable difference in 4:22 and 4:20

 There are a lot of variables. 4:2:0 is good enough for a lot of stuff but it's certainly nice to have that extra information when you need it.

Yeah, I really can't think of a lot of reasons to film with the A7s over the A7iii. You might do a little better in low light, but it'll be lacking in pretty much every other way. Better rolling shutter, battery life, auto focus, IBIS (vs. None at all), color, less prone to overheating, etc. 

You used to have to really rig the A7s (and the A7sii) up to get the most out of them,  especially when it came to battery life. One of the reason the production company I was working with at the time ended up selling theirs and going with the GH4 was because that, the rolling shutter, and overheating. That low light though, it blew our minds at the time. Low light across the board has improved so much, but 10 years ago it was voodoo magic! 

I think there probably is something to sensor size being a contributing factor to overheating, but I don't think it's THE factor. I think it's the processing and overall body design. I mean, up until the S1H, GH6 and the S5II/X, Panasonic have been able to do it in both M43 and full frame without a fan. It really might boil down to Panasonic having superior processing (not just power, but more efficient coding) and body design. Once that wasn't enough to handle heating issues they added a recording limit, like in the original S5, or added the fans. 

Sony would get crap for putting in a recording limit, which is why I imagine they don't do it, but at least it'd be honest. At least then people would know how long they could record consistently. 

10 hours ago, Marcio Kabke Pinheiro said:

In fact, all environmental data is important when comparing overheating issues, for all brands.

I mean not all brands have overheating issues, so... 😉

Real pros film with laser precision anyway. If you need more than 3.5 seconds of footage the problem ain't the camera, bro, it's you! 

Imagine the reaction if Canon was releasing these cameras. You'd have your Canon apologists, of course, but man, Canon would be getting torn to shreds in Facebook groups, forums, and on YouTube (and rightfully so!). Sony though... not much of a peep from the usual crowd.

If only they were required to include that information in their marketing material. Instead we get "Powered-up by its combo of the latest 26.0MP back-illuminated Exmor R CMOS sensor and the BIONZ XR processor, the camera nevertheless weighs less than its predecessor, resulting in a mobile workhorse capable of an unstrained 11 fps continuous stills capture or stress-free UHD 4K video oversampled from a 6K resolution, making it a formidable multi-tool for the multi-hyphenate creative."

Imagine if these companies were required to add recording limits to any camera that overheats AND were required to clearly advertise those limits in the specs, on the box, and in the marketing material like they used to have to with the 30 minute limit! See how quick they'd figure out and fix the overheating then!

Heck, imagine how quick they'd figure it all out if they had to clearly advertise that the camera overheats at all instead of burying it in the manual!

44 minutes ago, ntblowz said:

Well said! I see this type of comment pop all the time, I guess only us "old" people shoot event, speeches under the sun, while new ppl just shoot 5s of b roll and call it a day lol.

When did shooting under the sun become extreme scenario?

I guess by current projection of temperature rise it will be standing under the sun is the extreme condition 😂

All of it is ridiculous, from comments like that to people claiming only us event shooters need to record for long takes. I will never, ever understand consumers making excuses for why it's okay for companies to give you less. THAT'S what I've really come to despise the most about the video/photo community, honestly. 

It's one thing to ask for something that they're simply not capable of doing in a camera at this price point, but overheating absolutely isn't one of those things, and reliability should be everyone's top priority. We're literally asking for the bare minimum, while people act like we're the crazy ones! Lol! It's not even an expensive or difficult fix! 

17 hours ago, SRV1981 said:

Seems odd to assume buying a fan stops companies from making built in fans. Panasonic did it.  And also interesting that you care so deeply about others decisions. 

Panasonic (and Sony) both put fans into mirrorless cameras before external fans started to become more and more of a thing. You see, until recently, it seemed as though overheating was becoming a thing of the past. See: why I keep saying it feels like we're going backwards. 

People's purchasing decisions impact all of us. So yeah, I do care that people keep supporting this nonsense. You give these camera companies an inch and they'll take a mile. Only when you hold them accountable and force their hand do they start to improve. You need only look at Canon trying harder after the R5 debacle to see evidence of that.

What we've seen from Sony is that their overheating issues have gotten worse despite showing that they are more than capable of doing what is necessary to prevent it, given they did it before. What we're also seeing is an army of influencers and paid shills doing everything they can to downplay it, to the point that now people not only accept overheating but applaud third party manufacturers for creating a solution for a problem that shouldn't fucking exist in the first place!

Maybe you weren't around back then, but there was a time when everyone loathed the 30 minute record limit imposed on these cameras. EVERYONE celebrated when those limits were removed. It was one of the things EVERYONE could agree on, a rarity! Just a few years later and now people defend cameras that can't even record for 30 minutes before shutting down! "Who records that long anyway?!" It's ridiculous and disheartening. 

8 hours ago, ntblowz said:

SSD do need fan, I get overheating from editing which it disconnect itself from the computer halfway

You must do some hardcore editing, haha! I've never had this happen thankfully! 

6 hours ago, SRV1981 said:

Learn what? 

That there's no incentive for companies to treat their customers better when people think having to buy an external fan is a reasonable thing to do for a brand new camera. 

I'm not trying to be hard on you, it's just incredibly frustrating. 

5 hours ago, ntblowz said:

Yeah who the hell films outside sun 🌞  I guess everyone should only film indoors from now on, filming under sun is forbidden 🚫 

S5ii and FX30 with build in fan is probably the only camera that can film under full sun without overheating at this price range.

 

It's such a bummer how little these folks care about being honest with their viewers. They don't care as long as they can make a couple bucks off affiliate links. Whether it works or not doesn't matter to them. 

I feel bad when I recommend something to someone and it doesn't work out for them. Meanwhile these people do it to b hundreds, possibly thousands and laugh about it.

People will never learn. It truly bums me out.

22 hours ago, SRV1981 said:

I’m not an engineer and I take it nobody else here is so this is just resentment and speculation. On my part as well. Trust me - I’d pay a little more for active heat dissipation/cooling. 

I mean, it doesn't take an engineer to come to the conclusion that Sony has made a calculated choice in releasing cameras that overheat. I think it's a very reasonable conclusion.

22 hours ago, SRV1981 said:

Still, I’m not convinced that non-pros are recording for 30 minutes at a clip. I’ve never seen it, I don’t see it on YT, I don’t do it, and anyone I know with a cam doesn’t either. The only folks I’ve seen film weddings, movies, or YT video podcasts. 

They do. But it also isn't really the point: they SHOULD be able to do it, whether they ever do or not. They're spending considerable money for a camera, it should function.

22 hours ago, SRV1981 said:

Curious, if a professional why not use a cinema camera? Are we using the word professional differently?

A professional is someone that, in my opinion, makes money from their craft and is knowledgeable of said craft.

Why would I use a cinema camera when my Lumix S5 setup gives me professional features and the reliability that I need for a fraction of the price? Mirrorless cameras (well, good ones anyway) are such versatile tools and are a much better investment. I will have spent less on my three S5 bodies than it would cost to buy one FX3, and that FX3 won't even have all the features that the S5 has packed into it despite it being a "cinema camera".

15 hours ago, Eric Calabros said:

The main problem with overheating is not the max time for recording. Its inconsistency and unpredictability. 

That's the other issue. Whether it's the overheating, or the recovery time, not having consistency or predictability is unacceptable, whether it's for professional or personal use. Have some respect and appreciation for your consumer.

18 hours ago, SRV1981 said:

Just another thought for a hobbyist here - I can’t imagine why I’d be filming for 20-60m straight in 98 degree humidity continuously. And if I was using it for work/professionally I’d probably be using a cinema camera. 
 

id love to have a c70 but I can’t afford it and don’t need it.  So maybe an a6700 does make sense. 

I don't think hobbyists are less likely to film longer takes, but regardless, their new $1200 camera should probably be more capable than their cell phone and not overheat in the event that they DO decide to film for longer periods. We really do need to stop making excuses for this stuff.

Most professional videographers I know don't use cinema cameras. I don't, and I'd like to consider myself a professional. 

16 hours ago, Eric Calabros said:

This phone has active cooling fan.

Thickness and bulk is no longer an issue.

Yea, not using this tech looks intentional.

100%. Even the argument that it'd prevent them from hitting their intended price point doesn't hold water. How much, realistically, would adding a fan to these cameras cost per unit? Maybe $10 in parts?

6 hours ago, SRV1981 said:

That’s fair. Could also just be profit motive in another direction: “we have all these parts let’s just throw these extra parts in a smaller body and call it a day”

It's probably a combination of both, but I just don't think Sony is interested in releasing a camera in that price range that is capable of doing it all. I think Sony has become the new Canon. They realize that they can get away with it, that most people will look the other way or make excuses. Ultimately the goal is to funnel people towards spending more money, because the reality is if you want to get a camera that takes good photos and has more reliable video, you need to look towards their more expensive full frame options (though even the A7IV can overheat.)

58 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

Cost cutting and I suspect 99% of users won’t experience overheating etc.

I think somewhere like here with a mix of pros and keen enthusiasts, we consider these things more.

I was ready to rubbish a stick on fan, but having looked at it, and the preorder price, thought it was quite decent actually and if it works and can make something like that new Sony better, then great.

The Fuji option looks good also.

But yes, part of me would like to see everything included but then every bit of kit would probably cost too much and could not exist in the marketplace?

The thing is, is it really unlikely that an enthusiast or amateur ISN'T going to experience overheating if a camera can't even get 20 minutes at 24p (and presumably, 30p)?

Ultimately he consumer, whether it's a professional or an enthusiast, shouldn't have to worry at all that their brand new camera might shut down because a company refused to spend a little extra putting a fan in the body to prevent it from overheating.

We should be expecting more from these companies, not less.

31 minutes ago, Marcio Kabke Pinheiro said:

S5 II have internal fan and is one of the cheapest FF video cameras - and Panasonic have the best heat management, the GX9 that I had never even get warmer recording 4k (probably best chipset design).

That's the other thing. We can say the difference is the size of the sensor or the resolution, but Panasonic figured out how to get unlimited 4K recording nearly a decade ago. I've never, ever experienced overheating dating back to my GH3 days. Two weeks ago I was outside in 90+ degree weather with high humidity with my three Lumix S5s and the idea of them overheating didn't even cross my mind. They recorded two 90+ minute takes, with only a brief 10 minute intermission in between the first and second half of the event. 

It really does feel like we're going backwards when these accessories are necessary. 

2 hours ago, SRV1981 said:

Starting to agree this is absurd.  They are in a bind to keep up With spec races versus waiting til engineers develop better thermal dissipation for high powered tech.  
 

I was really ready to buy this setup. It’s got everything I need on paper.  Would the Fuji attachable fan work with this? 
 

otherwise I’d consider a used a6600 for photo portraits and sports and an fx30 for video documentary work. 

I'm starting to think it's intentional. I don't think they want to release a hybrid camera that is capable of doing both, at least not at this price point. There really was nothing stopping them from adding a fan, even if it added to the price. Releasing a camera that overheats is a choice.

2 hours ago, kye said:

In "88-90 degrees"....  hahahahaha....  that's not even that hot!

I mean it's pretty hot, haha, but not hot enough that it should cause a camera to overheat in under 20 minutes! When I am filming events it can get even warmer (mid 90s and up) in venues May through September and I work in Vermont!

But companies will keep releasing cameras like this until people stop buying them and making excuses for why it's acceptable. 

My phone does 8K and outside of my initial test I've never used it. I suppose 8K could be of benefit for even better stabilization?

Having bought action cameras in the past I never end up using them. I'm surprised that there's a market for yearly upgrades for them, honestly. 

I MIGHT end up picking up a feiyu pocket 3 in the future, probably used, because I can think of some real uses for that kind of set up (you can remove the gimbal from the handle and stick it places with magnets while controlling it wirelessly.) 

shocker. overheats in 24p. 🙄

Definitely render it out to 1080p. It will get a significant bit rate boost.