Mark Romero 2

Yeah, in the shadows probably. The XT2 is slightly cleaner than the XT3. Its why I find tests like Cinema 5D does not that useful. In a practical over under they would probably look identical, only the XT3 codec is way more robust.

https://***URL not allowed***/the-cinema5d-camera-lab-is-back-dynamic-range-tests/

Cinema 5D says its 10.6 while the FS7 is 12 stops. They tested the GH5 at 9.7 stops and the OG BMPCC at 11.2 stops. 

I find over under tests much more useful. 

Long time ago i tested my 5D Mark II against my a6300 and a rented BMPCC
In the comparison i made all cameras was shooting ETTR with their best available (raw, slog2) settings
As you may know from the technical threads at magiclanter.fm the max available dynamic range for 5D2 raw @iso100 ettr is 11.7 stops
The BMPCC and the a6300 were both 2 stops better in the shadows which means they had around 13.7 stops. It was noisy as hell, so im not talking about usable dynamic range.
The a6300 was cleaner, the BM had more detail but also more noise / grain. 
After further testing i would say all of the cameras i was talked about has 1.5 stops less usable  (i mean noise free, or able boost up with noise reduction) dynamic range.
So: 5D: 10 stops, BM: 12 stops, a6300: 12 stops

Won't the A73 likely be very similar to the A7S2 certainly not higher. 

Good question.
Aside from all the theory, here is an actual test that SEEMS like it should be accurate testing the dynamic range of the various picture profiles. Unless there is some mistake in his methodology which I don't see.
 
His testing methodology is based on 13 stops (12 lights one stop apart and the black background counting as the the 13th stop).
Notice in the SLOG profiles - even when overexposed - there is still room at the top of the wave forms to squeeze in another stop and possibly two stops (meaning, he could have added two more lights following the sequence of being one stop brighter than the light before it).
His methodology gives some indication of noise performance in shadows, although he doesn't attempt to clearly define what is "acceptable" noise and what isn't.
I don't think he has measured other cameras this way for a comparison or not.
And yes, sheer dynamic range isn't everything.
On the other hand, Maartech's testing shows a much more conservative dynamic range (with  HLG being the notable exception, although I don't think he says WHICH flavor of HLG he is testing)
https://youtu.be/1yiX041goic?t=1437
 
 

Good question.
Aside from all the theory, here is an actual test that SEEMS like it should be accurate testing the dynamic range of the various picture profiles. Unless there is some mistake in his methodology which I don't see.
 
His testing methodology is based on 13 stops (12 lights one stop apart and the black background counting as the the 13th stop).
Notice in the SLOG profiles - even when overexposed - there is still room at the top of the wave forms to squeeze in another stop and possibly two stops (meaning, he could have added two more lights following the sequence of being one stop brighter than the light before it).
His methodology gives some indication of noise performance in shadows, although he doesn't attempt to clearly define what is "acceptable" noise and what isn't.
I don't think he has measured other cameras this way for a comparison or not.
And yes, sheer dynamic range isn't everything.
On the other hand, Maartech's testing shows a much more conservative dynamic range (with  HLG being the notable exception, although I don't think he says WHICH flavor of HLG he is testing)
https://youtu.be/1yiX041goic?t=1437
 
 

Firstly, thanks to everyone that has responded.  You've all contributed knowledge without starting a war, which makes me very happy to be a member of this forum.
Will respond individually to everyone's comments when I have a bit more time later today.
 

So in terms of hybrid cameras - and including the BMPCC4K even though it isn't a hybrid camera - is the a7 III still tops when it comes to dynamic range?
Purely dynamic range. Not colors, not ergonomics, not soul, not flame-proof-ness. Just DR.
I've read Sony a7 III with slog 2 has close to 14 stops of DR.
Is the BMPCC4K able to compete / beat it when shooting in RAW? (New BMRAW firmware was just released, BTW).
Will Z6 beat it once it gets ability to shoot in RAW via hdmi out? (I am reluctant to spend $1,000 getting a recorder, battery and SSD card for it).
What's the DR of the Panasonic S1 cameras like? Another site said that it had 12.2 stops when shooting HLG at ISO 400. I think V Log is a paid firmware update coming down the road, right? (Hopefully it won't be dependent upon the US Postal Service for delivery).
ALSO: I thought someone on this forum posted a few months back that the 8-bit codec of the a7 III actually helped increase dynamic range when compared to 10-bit codecs. Was I dreaming? Was I on drugs? Was my mind being controlled by @mercer cat???
(P.S. I know that Sony cameras - much like my wardrobe choices - have many serious flaws. No need to comment on either of those things here.)

I have a a7iii + ninja V as my main video camera setup (and a a7rii for photo )
i got the a7rii when I still had my blackmagic ursa mini 4.6k .
the a7rii in slog 2 had a bit more DR thank the ursa mini in pro res , so I sold the ursa ( mostly because of the form factor and the video autofocus)
The a7iii is a killer camera , I shoot HLG with it because I found Slog 2 to be unusable ( too much chroma noise , even externally) , but in resolve I do a color space transform back to slog3 and use the Venice rec 709 Lut , so you get great colors.
Dynamic range is really not an issue anymore on modern camera , I don t believe that the Alexa is that much better anymore , but it still have a nicer roll off in the highlights when it clip .
 
The roll off is more important than the dynamics range at that point , also realistically Film only have 11 stop , so it s hard to blame mordern cameras over analog for DR.

...and scary...
Ok, so the dynamic range is the height distance between the ground floor and the top floor, and the bit depth of the ADC is the number of steps the staircase has that goes from the ground floor to the top floor???

Courses for horses, I guess. I can't understand this obsession with 60p. It's a useful extra, but just that, extra. Color and bit depth over 60-whatever-p any time. And now we can finally have 10bit log in those tiny cameras. A bare minimum for real log. I find this the most exciting thing back from the Red One days.

OK.. seems like it's somewhat sensitive thing.. To get back into perspective, what usually matters to cinematographers is the picture they get. And in this particular case I just wanted to say that none of 8 bit cameras I tested looked good enough with their log picture. While Nikon Z6 and Fuji X-T3 look really good. But this is subjective guys, I'm looking at the picture, testing where it breaks, evaluating this for myself, and only then looking at what numbers/bits it has. Let's not start a war over it. In normal conditions with careful exposing one can make any of these 8 bit camera look just great, no questions.

Thanks for the reply.
Haven't tested it myself. Still trying to decide on which camera to buy
Have seen lots of tests online though using different methods. I will definitely check out cinematography.net which I haven't seen before.
The most optimistic online tests I have seen was just about 14 stops. I don't recall seeing one under 12 stops (there might be some, just didn't see any. Again, I will check out the site you mentioned.) But different testers use different methods, and they don't seem standardized.
Part of this assumption is based on extrapolation on testing of the D750 by @Mattias Burling where he tested against BMCC (both RAW and PRORES codecs) and he felt confident that the D750 had 13 stops of DR when using flat picture profile. As my aps-c a6500 in Slog 2 has more DR than my D750 had in Flat profile, and the a7 III reportedly has more DR than my a6500, so...
Link To D750 Test by Mattias:
 
I've seen some tests of slog 2 versus 8-bit F Log, where slog 2 came out ahead, but I haven't seen any head-to-head against 10-bit F Log. Would love to see some.

So in terms of hybrid cameras - and including the BMPCC4K even though it isn't a hybrid camera - is the a7 III still tops when it comes to dynamic range?
Purely dynamic range. Not colors, not ergonomics, not soul, not flame-proof-ness. Just DR.
I've read Sony a7 III with slog 2 has close to 14 stops of DR.
Is the BMPCC4K able to compete / beat it when shooting in RAW? (New BMRAW firmware was just released, BTW).
Will Z6 beat it once it gets ability to shoot in RAW via hdmi out? (I am reluctant to spend $1,000 getting a recorder, battery and SSD card for it).
What's the DR of the Panasonic S1 cameras like? Another site said that it had 12.2 stops when shooting HLG at ISO 400. I think V Log is a paid firmware update coming down the road, right? (Hopefully it won't be dependent upon the US Postal Service for delivery).
ALSO: I thought someone on this forum posted a few months back that the 8-bit codec of the a7 III actually helped increase dynamic range when compared to 10-bit codecs. Was I dreaming? Was I on drugs? Was my mind being controlled by @mercer cat???
(P.S. I know that Sony cameras - much like my wardrobe choices - have many serious flaws. No need to comment on either of those things here.)

Firstly, thanks to everyone that has responded.  You've all contributed knowledge without starting a war, which makes me very happy to be a member of this forum.
Will respond individually to everyone's comments when I have a bit more time later today.
 

Probably you're right, 11-12 stops limited by ADC.

I would guess 12 if your properly exposing Slog 2

The problem is there are many ways to measure DR. If you read "the Sony a7III has 14 stops of DR" and "the Arri Alexa has 14 stops of DR" both may be correct, but are utterly meaningless statements unless you also know how they were measured.
Many years ago, Cinema5D pegged the a7sII at like 14 stops. However, they later standardized their measurement to use SNR = 2, which gave the result of a7sII at 12. But whichever way you measure, it's ~2 stops less than the Alexa. Many members here will tell you that Cinema5D is untrustworthy, so take that as you will. I have yet to find another site that even pretends to do scientific, standardized tests of video DR.
Cinema5D puts the XT2 and XT3 at just over 11, so that confirms your finding. And again if you change your methods, maybe it will come out at 13, or 8, or 17--but in every case it should be a stop less than the a7sII when measured the same way.
Bit depth doesn't necessarily correlate exactly to dynamic range. You can make a 2 bit camera that has 20 stops of DR: anything below a certain value is a 0, anything 20 stops brighter is a 3, and then stick values for 1 and 2 somewhere in between. It would look terrible, obviously, because higher bit depth  reduces banding and other artifacts. There is pretty much no scenario in which an 8 bit encoding has an advantage over 10 bit encoding of the same image.

It will always be a bit subjective in the shadows range. Just look at Geoff Boyle's tests. He has a comment section where he rates each of those high end cameras, with number of stops over and under the charts. With highlight clipping it's easier, although I've seen discussions where some even question this part, seeing 1/4 of a stop more, etc. In practical applications these hardly matter. In the shadows Geoff is ruthless - he discards anything where the color changes or the noise becomes apparent. For instance Alexa @ 800ISO is 5 stops over and 2 stops under in his tests. I'd probably find acceptable another stop in the underexposure. And so on. But in 8bits... you can try cramming those stops, but there's just not enough values per stop at that depth, etc. However, many find those log curves in 8bits acceptable and use them all the time. Whatever works for you, I guess.

I don't know about the A7iii but my A7sii could not touch the DR of the 13stop BMCC, D750 or even the 12stop XC10 and 5Dmkiii raw. 
So I doubt the A7iii could match a BMPC4K. At least I haven't seen any footage that points to it being able to. Would love it if it could. Maybe then I could justify it's imo to high price.

From the cinema 5d dynamic range test the Panasonic S1 had more DR - 12.2 than the Sony FS7 - 12, and that was without V-log for the S1 so I would expect it  trumps the A7iii

Have you tested it? In my testing experience none of these small cameras come closed to 14 stops. None. Even more so with Sony A7III 8bit output. It's just impossible to have 14 stops in that. 10bit log is said to carry up to 12 stops (11.5 according to cinematography.net), so... But whatever helps people feel more confidence in their tools. It's the final outcome that matters, after all.

Welcome to the free peer-to-peer colour grading course! ???
The idea is that we all have things to learn from each other, so we all grade the same clip and then you explain what you did if someone is interested in your grade.
These are the rules:
No criticism.  NO CRITICISM!!  Seriously. If someone asks for constructive feedback then sure, give a few helpful pointers (and not an essay), but this thread is about learning from each others strengths, not pointing out each others weaknesses. We are here because we are not professional colourists, and some of us only do this for fun and aren't pros, so give us a break. If we criticise then no one will grade, and... If no-one grades, no-one learns anything. You don't have to grade to participate, but please do if you are able to. You can post multiple grades if you want.  Try different looks, see what works and what other people might like.  Grading is subjective. Anyone is free to post a clip/still to grade, BUT, You must post two grades of other clips before you post your clip for grading.  Otherwise we'll have a thread full of clips and no grades.  See rule #2. If you post a clip, please include what colour/gamma profile it was shot in.  This helps to transform the colour space. Please post the file SOOC if possible (if it's not too large a file size) or at least a completely ungraded unprocessed clip from that file.  Be sure to maintain bit-depth and resolution. Please post relatively nice clips, not ones that are impossible.  Try to remember that we're trying to learn colour grading, not show off our troubleshooting skills. Don't be an asshole.  Seriously, just play nice and get along I am serious about Rule #1.  Posting your creative work is an act of courage - criticising others is an act of cowardice.  If you are an asshole I will call you out, and I will not be polite about it.
All that said, here's clip number one.  Have at it!
https://www.sugarsync.com/pf/D8480669_08693060_6029821
Clip shot with GH5 in 150Mbps 4K HLG, shot with sharpening turned all the way down.  I have reason to believe that the HLG on the GH5 is neither rec.2100 nor rec.2020, but rec2100 is probably good enough to get a decent grade.  I shoot auto-WB so it probably needs adjusting, and there's a bit of noise too, but it's not too far gone - I shoot in way worse conditions than this.  The clip is from a tour of a traditional village temple in Nha Trang Vietnam.

Thanks to everyone who has replied. Really appreciate all the input and tips.
Here is the latest video I did over the weekend. I think overall the colors are a bit better, as I am becoming a bit more proficient with the qualifier tool. There are still some color casts, but I think that they are a bit better controlled (for the interiors, at least).
As for the backyard shots, it appears to me that some of the brightest clouds have a pinkish / magenta tinge to them. Is anyone else seeing that? Mostly in the bright part of the clouds along the horizon, starting at the 1:19 mark. Did I just grade those exterior shots too warm???
 

f0 or it's trash mate.