MdB

Hahaha sounds like a bunch of excuses. Sooooo 1 stop difference is lens is unimportant, but going from crop to full frame is a world away. Do people have an actual clue? 

Three native lenses champ. A slow zoom and two expensive f/1.8 primes. Astonishing. Talking adapted? What a joke. Get a clue. 
Bahahaha yeah except Nikon are locking down the mount and protocols. 
Got a bit more of a clue then some mindless fanboy spouting his mouth off. 
Great and still only useful for F mount fanboys... which is what I said to begin with. Not going to build up a base of F mount lenses just to mount on a camera that is flavour of the month with some small ‘spec’ advantage. The ‘system’ has ZERO enticing about it (again unless you’re already a die-hard Nikon fanboy, in which case it will be the ‘best’ anyway). 
As for all that for $2k. I wouldn’t care if it was $500 I still have no use for it. If you gave me one for free I’d sell it to fund something useful. 
I’m pretty sure there has never been a more pointless turd of a camera...

The problem is that the biggest critics were never going to buy one anyway. And if you look at the video specs, other than the 4K crop and no IBIS, the camera is pretty damn good and beats a lot of other camera’s offerings. 

I knew all hell was gonna break lose today and everybody is entitled their opinions but calling people morons for being interested in purchasing this camera, or calling it a rip-off is just wrong & uncalled for. People have the right to be interested in this camera and nobody is forcing them to buy it. We all have different needs & backgrounds. So let's just all settlle down shall we?
Canon hinted at 2 other bodies coming. My guess is they're IBIS & next-gen sensor tech is still in R&D but they wanted to respond quickly to Nikon and this is what came out of it. This is their first effort, not the end all be all. I was expecting far worst actually, and at a higher price. Not trying to make excuses either, the severe 4k crop blows as is the HFR & lack of IBIS. They did make up for it in other parts (Eye AF, DPAF + Focus guide MF, 10-bit out, Control ring, VariND adapter etc) and the lens line-up is pretty  impressive. 
Nikon have I feel a much better rounded product with no major flaws, but it kinda lacks in flavor / fun-factor, especially the lenses. Feels like a more rugged industrial Sony clone. Can't say i find myself terribly excited about it even though i know it's the superior tool. As always I'll reserve final judgement until I try these out in person but the jury is still out as far as i'm concerned, the lens system being the real tipping point for me.

Good lord... when did I say people shouldn’t debate or discuss cameras? Obviously, I have a shit ton of posts and that’s why I’m here. But I don’t waste my precious time, going into camera threads that I have no intention of ever buying just to bash it. These are the people I’m talking about. I also am not going to cry over a camera not having features I want/need like a little baby. It’s an effin camera. I’ve seen your work, you are a talented guy. I’m sure you could go out with a t2i or an a6000 and make great videos, so I wasn’t even talking about you.
Methinks you doth a dork. “Let down...” it’s a goddamned camera for Christ’s sake. I was let down as soon as they introduced a new mount... I think it was a moronic move on Canon’s part. But as I just wrote to Wolf whatever... I wasn’t talking about you anyway. I’m not talking about disappointed people, I’m referring to the trolls that only appear during Canon releases, or the fanboys that have nothing better to do than poke around here. I know you’ve shot with a bunch of cameras and are brand agnostic, and I believe that this doesn’t suit your needs. It doesn’t suit mine 100% either but it doesn’t mean it is entire crap and that the camera doesn’t have a bunch of interesting features.

Three native lenses champ. A slow zoom and two expensive f/1.8 primes. Astonishing. Talking adapted? What a joke. Get a clue. 
Bahahaha yeah except Nikon are locking down the mount and protocols. 
Got a bit more of a clue then some mindless fanboy spouting his mouth off. 
Great and still only useful for F mount fanboys... which is what I said to begin with. Not going to build up a base of F mount lenses just to mount on a camera that is flavour of the month with some small ‘spec’ advantage. The ‘system’ has ZERO enticing about it (again unless you’re already a die-hard Nikon fanboy, in which case it will be the ‘best’ anyway). 
As for all that for $2k. I wouldn’t care if it was $500 I still have no use for it. If you gave me one for free I’d sell it to fund something useful. 
I’m pretty sure there has never been a more pointless turd of a camera...

That is curious logic. They reference a crop mode for 1080p - What makes you make the assumption that it has anything at all to do with a 1.6x crop in 4K? 
Just seems like an odd leap. The crop they have (on all the previous 4K cameras) is a 1:1 crop of pixels. That's what dictates the crop size. Obviously we don't know about a pixel binning or full sensor read option. 
Again a kind of ridiculous comment. "what if they could only take one photo before they explode?!"
Sorry where is the moaning about the 'crop' on the more expensive GH5S? Or the Leica SL having only S35 4K? You seemed to like that camera well enough. How much did people bang on about the GH4 and pretty much every Panasonic (including new ones just released) other than the GH5? 
Indeed.
Here's a list of cameras (that I know of) that you have bought with 4K 'crops':
GH4
Leica SL
A99 II (same as A7R II)
A7R II (full frame was unusably bad, supersampled S35 was way better)
A7 III (crops in 30p)
X-T2
X-H1
GX85
1DC
NX500
Need I go on? It has literally been the latest round of camera powered by Sony sensors that haven't needed it. 
And? Isn't that the same bitrates as Panasonic are 'famously' providing in their superior video abilities? 
Not even remotely a problem. The last thing of any real expense is memory cards on a long professional shoot. I seriously doubt I would use ANY of these toys on a long professional shoot. 
Ok now you're making digs, don't like having people disagree with you huh? Funny last week I was named a Sony fanboy. What's the reality? 
Why? Because you're so angry at the 'fanboy' that you'll just lash out at BS for the sake of it? 
Defend what? 
100Mbps 8bit 4:2:0... You're in dream land. S35 the only way to get decent video quality... Yeah sounds like it's thumping the Canon already
Oh please do tell me what the 'and so on' is? Nikon only has Log on HDMI out and same with 10bit. Are you going to shoot everything to an external monitor? Or are you going to stick with the dreadful internal 8bit with no Log? Worse AF. Pathetic line up of lenses. Sounds super! At least use a Sony...
Still didn't answer the question. The M5 has no 4K, so how does that sensor 'still' have a 4K crop. It is the first time it was used. So is it a new sensor? Or the same? 
"M50 has a wild 4K crop"
Brillant, well done. 
This is definitely true. Sony provides all those other brands that would be up the creek without them...
No DFD with Olympus (or anyone else's) lenses, even half of Panasonic's range. Weird mix of what does and does not work with the mixed IS. Clutched MF / AF works differently. Digital corrections. Sensor reflections due to different filter stacks. How do they suit? Then there is the huge difference in IS strategies between brands, that one's always fun. 
Context? 

Who is to say it won’t take ef-s lenses? Supposedly there is an ef-s crop mode. Which is why I keep saying there may not be a 4K crop. Why would they have an ef-s crop mode? Would the ef-s crop be on top of the supposed 4K crop? Or will the ef-s crop mode be smaller than the regular 4K crop?

Let’s just say the lenses are it’s strong point lol
Same video specs as the M50, except offer IPB and All-I. So maxes at 480Mbps. Which is nice compared to Sony / Nikon. But no clue on crop or EVF specs. 5fps with AF is pretty basic. 

To be fair, anyone who mentions anything remotely favourable about a Sony is hung, drawn and quartered as a Sony zealot / fanboy regardless of how much they actually care (or don’t) about Sony. As the technological leader (and the one that plays in the most spaces in the recent past) they tend to get mentioned a lot. 
$1900 was part of a totally bunk rumour that also said it was 28MP... 
i wouldn’t be clinging to that. They also said no RF lenses at one point. 

Yeah all those clowns shooting 1.5x S35 hey? 

I suspect it is a programmable control ring, like what is in G7X and RX100. A bit like the aperture ring on the Fuji’s, except can have different functions. It’s also available on the EF adapter too. 
I guess they have forgone the joystick in favour of touch screen? It still has the D-pad. It’s more 6D than 5D by the looks overall (which I’m perfectly fine with). 
Will be buying with 28-70, 50/1.2 and 35/1.8 Macro. 

You mean like the 30MP sensor already does in the 5D IV? 
Me too. Nearly bought one this week already. Needs lenses from third parties though. Panasonic using the same mount would be amazing. 

I'd say that's part of it, probably. MJPEG is basically the JPEG engine from Canon DSLRs as video @ 24/25/30fps. So it has that look, but adds C-Log to compress the DR in. 
I'd say though, that the 1DC is also one of the last of the Canon 'old colour' that they are most known for. SOOC colour is better on the 1DC than the 5D IV IMO. The 1DC therefore represents the best video they do with that old Canon colour and in that way it's rather special / unique. 5D IV has a much more green colour tint to it. 
I think the 1DC will go down as one of those very special and collectable cameras. I've been enjoying the features (PDAF) of the 5D IV and M50, but going back to the 1DC is just something else. 
 
 

I think people have a very skewed idea of what 'dominating' means. 
28-75mm is amazing (but imperfect). It is light and not intended to be 'rugged', but is built to a very good standard. 50mm f/1.8 is way better than the Canon 50mm STM and somewhat better than the Nikon 50mm AF-S. 85mm f/1.8 is the best of it's ilk by anyone as far as I can tell. I'm not sure how the bokeh really plays into your argument. 
Canon don't make lenses in that range because by the time you are bolting on a massive 200mm f/2 IS lens, you might as well use the one they already make, with adapter. This is something Canon actively promote as a benefit of the EF-M system. So in effect they are already making those lenses (and many more expensive ones too). 
That's because that is where the money is. Nobody but fanboys cares one iota about volume when there is no profit in it. Lower tiers are being relentlessly dumped because those markets are moving to smartphones. Canon also had a bewildering array of Powershots when that market was disappearing. Doesn't mean they are doing well out of it. 
Incorrect. People who are buying these cameras are much more likely to buy lenses and yes at those prices and (much) higher. This is called attachment rate and this is what manufacturers are aiming for. People who buy a base model DSLR and kit lens don't ever buy lenses. When they buy a new one, they buy again with kit lens (so could buy any brand). High end mirrorless is where all the attachment rate happens. Nobody is (completely) ignoring the lower end (except Nikon), Sony release new RX100's every year (really popular with the DSLR + kit lens crowd) and they have plenty of APS-C models to choose from and the kinds of lenses entry level users buy (if any). They don't need to release a new camera every week to have something comparable in this segment. Heck the A6000 is still getting compared to the M50. What Sony don't bother with is an array of expensive APS-C specific lenses, but for entry level there are plentiful options. 
Fujifilm are the same. So are Panasonic. So are Olympus. 
Canon have only played in that area to date, because yes there is volume and because they weren't wanting to cannibalise sales of 6Ds and 5Ds etc. 
Sony had 'affordable' lenses from day dot for the market they were aiming. 
Those lenses might be getting headlines, because they are new. They won't be volume movers, but are halo products that help move lower tier products, including the ones you think make up the majority of the market. People buy Canons because the person they know who is a 'camera person' said they can't go wrong with one. Or the spotty store clerk sold them one because that's the one they heard of. But in the top end of town things are very different. Thus Sony selling more FF cameras than anyone in the 1st 6 months this year. Canon are selling lots of 1500Ds (in volume), but in the markets we are interested in thats not the case. 
Considering they have these uninspiring models in the FF sector at the moment (one of which I own over the 'inspiring' models) and can't beat Sony in FF sales, what makes you think they are suddenly going to with a FF mirrorless? They haven't been able to do that with mirrorless APS-C and I don't see that changing if they keep being 'uninspiring'. 
And now FF. Canon ran away from the US mirrorless market with their tails between their legs with the joke that was the EOS M1 (I owned like 6 over the years). People overestimate Canon's abilities and market power by a factor of about 10 I reckon. 
Yep. That lens is phenomenal! Too bad it isn't coming to the Nikon Z any time soon, that lens alone would sell me on a Z6. 

I'd say that's part of it, probably. MJPEG is basically the JPEG engine from Canon DSLRs as video @ 24/25/30fps. So it has that look, but adds C-Log to compress the DR in. 
I'd say though, that the 1DC is also one of the last of the Canon 'old colour' that they are most known for. SOOC colour is better on the 1DC than the 5D IV IMO. The 1DC therefore represents the best video they do with that old Canon colour and in that way it's rather special / unique. 5D IV has a much more green colour tint to it. 
I think the 1DC will go down as one of those very special and collectable cameras. I've been enjoying the features (PDAF) of the 5D IV and M50, but going back to the 1DC is just something else. 
 
 

Crop may remain a problem for Canon. Sony have fixed this issue for everyone else (Panasonic, Nikon, Sony, Olympus, Fuji) but Canon go it alone with their sensors. Bitrate and codec are for the most part fixed with Digic 8 as shown on the M50 with the 150Mbps 4K (which is quite nice). It would be nice to finally have a product with both the compressed MPEG4 AND the MJPEG. 
Disappointing. Still nothing in the Canon camp for that. Plus that 1.5kg is really only APS-H for 4K60. 
Sony A7S III maybe? 
Doesn't seem a world away from the Z6. 
That's what I thought the other day, but not at $1900. I also don't think we'll see IBIS on the M5 II. 
Yep, seriously doubt it. Bet you I still prefer the Canon images though. 
I don't think Canon could care less what Nikon is doing. 
True. They have publicly stated though that video is much more important to them now. 
Uhm, well if this product launches in two weeks I would say Sony are exactly why they are doing it. You can't seriously believe the Z6/Z7 announced days ago had anything at all to do with it? Nikon AND Canon are developing these products because they are threatened by Sony (although all the fanboy sites will try and tell you that Sony was never a threat at all, so I wonder why they are cloning their 'losing' product strategy). 
C-log is not a given. Decent codec will be 100%. C-log is something they have reserved heavily in their DSLR market, with only the 1DC and 5D IV (begrudgingly, later) getting the C-log treatment. 
Yep, yep and yep. 
No Canon users are thinking of switching. 
 
And no, before anyone rants at me, I don't think this will be significantly improved 'ergonomics' over the Sony mirrorless cameras. Just as I don't think Nikon extracted any miracles out of a unicorn anus. That is unless it is a Canon DSLR body with an EVF and no mirror, which is possibly a thing... a very weird and pointless thing. 

Being that Nikon are keeping specs under wraps and this is a very modern mount, it seems like we may be waiting for some time. I won't be getting my hopes up any time soon. 
I think people are confused about the N-Log compatibility - The BMVA4K should have no issues. It's at most a build in LUT on the Atomos. You will surely be able to add a LUT to the BM. 
I have a Shogun and both the 5" and 7" BM. The Shogun has the advantage of using cheaper and faster media. The BMVA4K has dual slots, which makes up for the Nikon's lack of dual slots (for video). The BM uses the smaller Canon batteries while the Shogun uses the larger Sony L series. Overall I prefer the build and balance of the BM once set up (with batteries etc attached. The screen is brighter for sure on the newer Atomos models, but I am not convinced it makes enough of a difference for me. I had the Ninja Flame, but it wasn't bright enough in many conditions. Obviously the Ninja V is a lot smaller and I definitely prefer the smaller form factor of my 5" BMVA, it then loses XLRs, dual media and dual batteries and no options for SDI etc. 
Ninja V does have that accessory port, which may add SDI or XLR in the future which could be really interesting. 
A 4K BMVA 5" with dual card slots would be the perfect setup, if only they made such a thing. 
Reasonable for bread and butter work. Not good enough to replace a dedicated sound person when you should really have one. 
Almost certain to be more 'reasonable' than the built in audio. Much better than the complete lack of Audio my 1DC does over HDMI. 

Your posts are a waste of everyone's time here.

Absolutely. I routinely got 1500+ shots off my A7S back in the day (while also using LAEA adapter) off that FW50 battery. This occurred when shooting continuously over a period of a couple hours. Turning on and off shooting bits and pieces though and the battery life was pretty average. Still people would always point at the CIPA figures for Sony (around 300 shots) and say that was the most they could muster, while also providing their own anecdotes on how long their DSLR would shoot for (not considering during live view, because that would ruin their already very strong and valid argument). 
I think people need to get a clue. CIPA figures are not gospel. They are how a camera performs under one set of usage. Different usage, different figures. BUT it does give us a benchmark on which to judge (but every case must come from the CIPA figures, not their own experience). Given that, the Zs will get around the same battery as the original series A7s. 
Blackmagic are an Australian company. So are Atomos. 
I've been trying so hard ? But seriously, I think the hype machine is working on overdrive on these cameras. There have been a few voices saying 'hey, maybe not so much'. 
It's also practically impossible for the cameras to be BAD. I just find the hype very frustrating indeed. Fanboyism is even worse! 
Not surprised by any of these things. 
All cameras suffer in low light. Really good mirrorless are no worse than really good DSLRs, maybe even better. 
I thought that Nikon don't copy... Oh wait no you meant they don't copy Sony (because you don't like Sony and therefore find it offensive to even consider that Nikon would copy them, despite the fact that that whole product line is a direct copy and is being launch because of Sony). Legit. 
Bahahahaha! So long as that isn't Sony amiright?! ?
Why would you have to enable low light AF? This sounds ridiculous. There must be some major downside to having it enabled? Perhaps this camera's slow burst rate and buffer are affected even further? 
It isn't. But he doesn't want to say they copied Sony, or borrowed Sony's tech, because he can't stomach the idea. 

I ended up getting the 5D IV. I can confirm that it does lovely 1080p out of the HDMI using the 4K mode much like the 1DC does. It is actually a really fantastic camera and the crop 'feels' just like normal S35. The AF is fantastic. The image is lovely. There are lots of improvements all round (and some not so great rolling shutter). Also love that I can record the massive internal 4K files to SD card, unlike the 1DC. Will mean I'm more likely to also use the 4K internal. 
Need to get real C-Log on there ASAP though to really get the most out of it though, which is annoyingly a trip to Canon. 
Loving the DPAF and 1080p on this and the M50. Actually the latter is growing on me. 

Couldn't agree more. Just needs a reality check. I also really loathe throw away comments of assumption. What do they say about assumptions? 
The cameras look pretty ok. Good to see there is another product on the market. Let's hope Nikon don't ditch it because it's not going so well like so many of their other products. It might end up being really exciting. But to me personally it's pretty useless without an EF adapter or AF adapter for M-Mount lenses. I have zero interest in the 3 native lenses. 

Ah yes, the ultimate comeback. Fanboys with panties in a bunch. How about fanboys where the penny hasn't dropped that this is at best a Sony clone. I thought Nikon was a great innovator? Where is it? I though Nikon were so much better for pros? Where are the dual slots? I thought they had so much better ergonomics because they don't make 'toys', yet no one can actually point to them? Shouldn't they have a CLEAR physical advantage that users can point to? Not some ineffable 'oh but Nikon...'
These cameras look fine, nothing more. There is nothing new, at all, about them. Other than it's a mirrorless Nikon that doesn't have a piddly 1" sensor in it. That's not innovation. 
Sorry what are you selling here? Some marketing fluff. Goodo. Now I know that Nikon wants you think the EVF is their own. Excellent. How is magnification sharp? That doesn't even make sense. Feel of an optical viewfinder? So when Sony had the exact same viewfinder on the A9 nearly 2 years ago and all the Nikon fanboys claimed that EVFs were rubbish and nothing like their (relatively speaking: poor) OVFs are going to now claim they are so magical? 
I find it ironic that Nikon talked about their innovation and 100 years of experience in their teaser videos and started with a shot of their S series (abandoned mount, but Nikon don't do that kind of thing which was a clone of the Contax rangefinders. Now their experience and innovation and they're launching a Sony clone. I guess that's just their way...

More gaskets I guess most people usually think is better, so give them that one. 
The EVF is a Sony EVF, made by Sony, used in the Sonys. Don't see how that makes the Nikon better? What's the magnification of the Nikon?
 I'm sure Nikon fanboys will write a love letter about how Nikon are really the design masterminds behind them, but realistically they are Sony, just like the sensor. 
Sony has two top custom buttons which I would argue are more useful. I almost never use the front buttons on any camera I've owned with them. 
Sony has dedicated ISO wheel. Sony wins. 
They look the same. Unless you're talking about the bell end bit, which is bigger but hardly constitutes a bigger / better grip (considering you don't actually hold onto that bit). 
My Canons have these and are almost exclusively useless. 
Pretty sure any button can be a menus button on the Sony. Is a right-hand menu button more ergonomically correct than a right-hand play button? Not so sure. Seems like a swap the is more or less for the sake of it. 
I still don't see the main difference ergonomically. Or even any meaningful advantage. Build wise maybe, haven't held it in my hand. I've never felt the Nikons in general to be anything to write home about build wise, I actually think they feel quite cheap. Chunky. Many people seem to like that and equate it to 'good'. Again I am sure a bunch of fanboys will explain how non-toy like the Nikon automatically is... because Nikon. 
Ugh! Another throw away phrase that is overused and misunderstood. Nikon have ZERO experience Log or even REC.709 etc. Pleasing (to some) Nikon colours is what it should be credited for at best. 
I bought a 5D IV knowing full well this was coming. It's release has had zero impact. 
According to DPR: 
"Up to 100Mbps H.264 8-bit internal video capture"

I really fail to see where the drastically improved ergonomics are in these cameras. Someone care to actually point them out rather than just repeat the mantra 'and much better ergonomics' as an assumed throw away comment?