mercer

@TomTheDP I assume you mean an external monitor? If so, then I'm not sure, I've never used one with it. I know you need to use a different firmware for it... I think Canon 1.23 and then the coinciding ML Firmware. The LCD works fine for me. I use the Raw Histogram with Over Exposure Warning to judge exposure... it works good enough for my needs. 

On 3/16/2023 at 9:57 PM, TomTheDP said:

mercerowns both the FP and 5D MK3 and I believe he has said the lower bit depth on the Sigma is noticeable. I have heard that from others too.

Not only can I notice the lower bit depth, I'm fairly certain there is some type of noise reduction occurring behind the scenes with the FP. The extra resolution from the FP is nice but I feel like it resembles a lot of other camera's images from compressed codecs with just more leeway in post to make some changes.

The 5D3, on the other hand, has a higher end look in my opinion and the image is more malleable especially in the highlights, but the shadow detail is much cleaner with the FP.

They also share a similar post workflow for me... bring the footage into Resolve, correct/grade, export as ProRes and import into FCPX for the final edit/grade.

At first glance, the bump in resolution may make you feel like the FP has a superior image, but once you get into the files... let's just say that if I had to choose one, I'd sell the FP and keep the 5D3.

With that said, I think people underestimate the benefits of 14bit color. In some ways, it gives a perceived bump in DR because it is capturing the minute differences in hues. I notice it in skies and in tree bark.

I'm also a fan of shooting with DSLRs... especially chunky, full frame ones. If I could afford a 1DX iii, I'm sure I would love it.

6 hours ago, FHDcrew said:

If I had no money I would be shooting with a Canon 50D. People keep saying the EOS M is the budget king (valid) but this camera literally costs $109.98 with shipping! That is freaking cheap for 14-bit RAW video!

Other than a quick test of an early eos-m ml build, the 50D was my first real foray into Magic Lantern Raw and the image was amazing. It was the first time I was getting an image I was pleased with after putzing around with cameras for a couple years.

That said, the 50D has a ton of limitations which include overheating, the LiveView freezing at will. Usually the fix was as simple as shutting down the camera and ejecting the battery, but it became a major pain. Also the lack of audio made the camera kinda unusable for any real production because you kinda need a scratch track, at least, to synch audio from an external recorder.

So, if you just want to mess around with ML Raw, then yes for the price, it's a great camera and an amazing feat since Canon's original firmware didn't even offer video.

But if you want to shoot with ML Raw and have zero issues, the 5D3 is king. The 5D2 is also nice with a slightly different color science than the Mark III and also not too expensive.

Beware though, if you're anything like me, and you get a 50D, you'll be selling everything else and saving up for a 5D3 very soon. 

On 2/10/2023 at 6:17 AM, Andrew Reid said:

500Mbit in HEVC is like having 1000Mbit in H.264, so that A6500 (which I still have btw) was 100Mbit and still stood up well, so the a1 truly has some thick files going on.

X-H2 ProRes would be an interesting comparison.

I love the idea of RAW but it never seems to compel me to use it that much.

Sigma Fp-L 12bit needs a test though...as does the 5D3 Magic Lantern as that truly was proper RAW!

High bitrate h.265 combined with the high dynamic range of sLog3 does sound like a winning combo.

I took the FP out for another spin yesterday, and I really do like the footage. It handles very similarly to ML Raw while also losing a step in my post process. Even a few years after its release, with the help of Sigma's continued devotion to FW updates, I think it's one of the best buys out there right now, regardless of its limitations.

But again, it is very similar to working with 5D3 files, minus some detail that the 14bit ML files offer and the pure, unencumbered joy of shooting with the 5D3... so I'm still on the fence.

I still prefer RAW to any other compressed codec. It really helps to fix both my mistakes and the inherent obstacles of perfect shooting conditions with run & gun/guerilla filmmaking. I've submitted to the idea that it's going to take a lot of storage space and a longer post-workflow getting the footage into FCPX.

I'd love to see 5D3 ML Raw mixed into your test, pleas do that.

If you do get a chance, I'd love to see some footage from the XH2 ProRes. There really isn't much online. Originally, I preferred the idea of the "s" model, but after more thinking, the XH2 offers a very unique feature set... plus I didn't realize that the XH2 also shoots internal ProRes... which is huge for me and would really delineate the purpose of a second camera.

@Andrew Reid Interesting test. A few moons ago, I briefly owned the a6500 shortly after I sold my first BMMCC, and I was surprised at how juicy the sLog3 files were. I felt they were the closest to raw video that I had seen. And when shot with the monochrome setting, in sLog3, the banding that plagued those 8bit sLog cameras seemed to disappear. So I'm not too surprised how well the A1 holds up against the competition.

I recently bit the bullet and bought an FP. I've been having some fun shooting with it, but I also find it to be a miserable camera in some ways. Due to its size, I want the camera to stay small and stealthy, but I think that was the design flaw with the camera. If Sigma had just made the camera a bit bigger and allowed for internal 12bit, 4K raw, I never would have missed the smaller size and the overall experience would have been better. Like your disdain for external monitors, I despise external SSDs just as much, especially when only a select few have proven to work with the FP. That said, it's a really nice image and I am enjoying using my Minolta lenses with it.

But at the end of the day, I don't know if it's much better than my 5D3. Sure it has higher resolution and doesn't need specific lenses to get a really sharp detailed look, but I believe the overall IQ from my 5D3 beats the FP and the cameras are a bit too similar in a lot of ways to keep both.

With all of that said, I've noticed you mention the XH2 recently and am very intrigued. I'd be curious to see how the ProRes holds up in this test if you have the time or inclination.

I've only recently gotten my FP rigged up to where I feel comfortable using it, so I want to test it a bit more... maybe with a short film or something, but unless something really clicks, I may have to look elsewhere for an upgrade. The XH2 is interesting, but so are some of the Canon offerings... R5, R5C and of course the R3 which I doubt I'll ever be able to afford.

Thanks again for the test and I hope all is well with you and your family!!!

29 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

For video, other than (reliable) tracking, I always found it quite decent.

For stills, as long as it isn’t anything like motor sports or anything fast paced, it’s arguably better than phase because contrast is generally more reliable than phase.

Where it pissed me off though was the occasional pulsing. You can dial in certain settings that dial out most of it, but not completely in all situations. Mainly outdoors. With trees in the background. Which is a scenario I shoot a lot.

It was this that sent me down the route of using AF to get an initial lock, because despite being slower than PDAF, it is accurate, then immediately flipping to manual.

And that is where/why I love my Sigma lenses because they all have an AF/MF switch in them so the process is fluid.

Maybe it’s just me, but I prefer to switch the focus type on the lens rather than the body.

You know you can set the ae/lock button to one touch af on Panasonic bodies while in MF.

To be fair, I read this recently...

"Panasonic cameras have cooties, but Canon cameras are anti-vax..."

3 hours ago, Kisaha said:

Ofcourse it is..most ( if not all..) jobs are still delivered in 1080p..

You mean 8K 120p isn't industry standard? Don't tell the forum this, there could be a mutiny. 

I saw a videographer shooting a trade show with a C100 yesterday. I didn't get close enough to see if it was a Mark 1 or Mark 2 but I assume it was the latter. It's still a moneymaker.

@Anaconda_ thanks for all of the tests! If you have the time and feel inclined, could you try taking a bunch of 30 second to 2 minute shots consecutively for about 20-30 minutes and see how it goes? I just don't understand why some people are having zero issues with these "custom" drives and I can't get one to work consistently. 

On 1/20/2023 at 7:12 AM, Anaconda_ said:

3 in a row... 

With the setting I mention above turned to Custom, and shooting for 5 minutes at a time, I filled up the 1tb SSD without any fuss.

So I think, if you keep your shots under 10 minutes each, there's no issue with this setup.

Thanks for the info. I've used the custom setting and still had issues with NVME drives. I never shoot a shot longer than 2-3 minutes and most are less than a minute. But they are consecutive, with little time in between. As I said, some drives will work normally for a while, but then after 10-20 minutes of running and gunning a bunch of shots, the recording will just stop and then that will continue from that point on.

Which internal drive are you using with the DPL? It seems the guy who shot the video you posted tested all of the DPL recommended drives and had the same issues I am having with these alternate drives. I figure I'll test a couple more and then maybe I'll try reflashing the newest firmware.... if that's possible.

14 hours ago, Anaconda_ said:

I just recieved by DPL setup and it's changed how I look at the camera. With my previous setups, I either had a monitor on the back, or the loupe with an SSD on top. Both made the camera much bigger. But now I can shoot 4k 12bit for just under an hour on a 1tb SSD. 

Cool, I'm thinking of doing the same thing. I really like the 12bit 4K and shooting at 3200 ISO with my small collection of Minolta lenses. But a lot of its appeal is that it's a tiny camera that shoots FF Raw. These external drives are the antithesis of that.

What internal SSD are you using with the DPL? And have you tried any kind of stress test with it? The issues I'm having with unofficial drives is that they're fine for about 10 minutes, then all of a sudden the recording stops... I assume due to buffering. If I switch over to a Sigma recommended drive, the camera works fine, so I don't think it's an overheating issue.

15 hours ago, Anaconda_ said:

Of course, with the price it's only worth buying / testing if you're going to keep the camera, so keep using the t5 until you're sure you're happy with it. And I could very much recomend using Canon FDs.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to keep the camera, it's just finding the right setup for it. FD lenses are great on almost any camera. It helps that the adapters are also a little smaller as well.

15 hours ago, Anaconda_ said:

(not my video, but it's stunning and a 'simple' grade by the sounds of it) 

Very nice sample from the FP, but YouTube compression torments it. Which really gets you thinking...

Sadly, in the comments, he mentions similar SSD issues with the DPL rack that I'm experiencing with unofficial drives.

It seems these NVME drives work if you're casually using the camera during a trip, on a walk, or at a family event. But if you're firing off a lot of shots successively, or planning dialogue scenes... I don't know if they're a great solution.

Damn.

On 12/31/2022 at 10:44 AM, BTM_Pix said:

Yes, if you keep it at the constant f5.6 at both ends you can zoom in at the long end and it will be in focus at the short end.

Not sure if it is genuinely parfocal (though with native Lumix cameras it will likely be corrected to be so) but more an accidental by-product of the narrow aperture giving it enough depth of field to get away with it.

 

Whose to say, that technique always worked with cheap mini-dv camcorders too. They were marketed as having a parfocal lens... or it was just a side effect of the tiny sensor... either way, it was a cool feature to nail focus.

On 12/13/2022 at 6:48 AM, Anaconda_ said:

How do you find 4k 8bit raw vs 1080 12bit raw?

If shooting to SD cards, I generally go 1080 12bit, but only because I haven't properly tested 4k 8bit yet. Would love to hear your thoughts.

Sorry for the late reply...

Honestly, I haven't tested either enough to say with certainty, but I wasn't impressed at all with the 1080p raw. Without question ML Raw from my 5D3 is vastly superior. The only positive being is the higher frame rates from the FP, but I VERY rarely need slow motion.

The 4K 8bit raw wasn't bad. It seemed like a really good compressed codec that you can bend a bit more with the raw settings.

I'm having so many issues finding an SSD solution that I really wish I could just shoot internal 4K 8bit raw but the SD cards are just too damn expensive... 10 minutes of footage on a 128gb card is just too limiting and at $150 a pop... too expensive.

With that said, I think the 4K 8bit could be useful for very specific projects... micro-short films where you may have a low shooting ratio... projects or sequences that may be finished in B&W or have a very basic analogue look... vintage S8/16mm type of thing. With the MC-21 adapter and a Canon IS lens, it could be a really interesting set-up.

On 12/14/2022 at 8:58 PM, eatstoomuchjam said:

Back to the original topic, I'm a huge fan of the Dark Power Labs stuff.  I've been using the Sabrents that PC recommends in mine.  One thing that he doesn't mention (should you go that route) is that you need to peel off the heatsink sticker on it - the enclosure uses a thermal pad to attach to the SSD so it isn't needed anyway.  With the sticker attached, the enclosure is too tight.

Do they get hot?  YES.  When recording, it hasn't been too bad for me.  When dumping a full disk?  The enclosure gets uncomfortably hot.  That's going to happen with just about any extremely small/fast SSD during heavy I/O.

Anyway, I use the smaller enclosure attached to the EVF on my FP-L (no cage) and I use the DPL cage with the longer SSD enclosure attached on the bottom with my FP.  Either way, it's a pretty slick setup.  One of the things I like is that when I'm just shooting photos or don't need 12-bit, I can just unscrew the holder and throw it in my pocket.

Thanks for this! I've been testing numerous drives from the recommended list and unofficial drives and I have yet to find an unofficial drive that works for any extended period of time with run and gun shooting. A few I've tested (Kingston) work for about 10-20 minutes of extensive shooting, but then will start acting up and stop recording after 5-10 seconds. I assume it's a buffering issue. The two recommended drives I have (Sandisk Extreme Pro & Samsung T5) seem to work without issue, but to be honest, I don't think I pushed them as hard as the unofficial drives because I just assumed they work.

The internal Kingston NVME drive I have installed inside a SmallRig enclosure is actually an okay set-up...

That said, the DPL seems damn near perfect, except for the price.

I was regularly checking for a great price on an FP, but I needed a deal to make it worth it. For what I do, my 5D3 is more than enough for my needs. But I found an FP that was too good to pass up and I really like the IQ (and finally having a camera where I can use my Minolta lenses) but I still want/need to keep this camera set-up as stealthy and CHEAP as possible.

I guess I try one of those Sabrent drives. I tested the Rocket Nano drive and it didn't work at all. Thank God for liberal return policies. Do you know which version of the Sabrent NVME you are using? Is it the Blue or Brown Rocket?

6 hours ago, FHDcrew said:

I keep getting tempted to get a Canon C200 for that Canon RAW, DPAF and Internal ND

The C200B is on sale at B&H right now. I think it's $2400. 

Since I'm here... I may as well post a couple shots from my newest copy of the Nikkor 35mm 1.4 lens on the FP. I've owned a few of these over the years and always make the mistake of selling it. With the uptick in prices, I thought it would be out of reach... well patience pays off and I was able to find one for a reasonable price.

On 12/16/2022 at 2:23 PM, BTM_Pix said:

Another potential contender for all round compact lens for the OG Pocket is this Lumix G X Vario PZ 14-42mm f/3.5-5.6.

It has two levers (one for zoom and one for focus) but in terms of smoothness I think the focus works better than the zoom but its still easy to overshoot. Like a manual version of DFD really.

The OIS is reasonable and is obviously a big advantage with the OG Pocket.

I only got this lens under sufferance to check remote zoom functionality for my controllers as it is a powered zoom and thankfully I got it really cheap because after using it in semi-anger for the first time a few days ago I am not particularly fond of it at all.

In use, I found it tricky to get focus with but the combination of it having lowish contrast so not firing the less than ideal focus peaking of the OG Pocket and monitoring on the the less than ideal OG Pocket screen and the failing eyesight of the less than ideal OG Me might well explain that so I'll have to give it another go under different circumstances.

Anyway, here are some rough, soft, low res grabs from the ProRes 422 video file and I suppose I could maybe recommend this combo if you are after less a Super 16 and more a Super 8 feel 🙂

I've been meaning to comment on this... I think these look great. I've always read that this sensor needs a ton of light, but I've always liked the look of slower native lenses on the OG cams.

As you may remember, this is a lens I've wanted for the BMMCC for awhile. Stick it to f/5.6 and it seems to be a nice little set up with OIS. Since this is a power zoom, does it work like a camcorder lens... can you zoom all the way in, grab your focus and then zoom out?

5 hours ago, Alexis Fontana said:

That’s kind of a big compromise - don’t you think? Mitigating a colour fidelity issue by removing colours is hardly optimal. 

I think you may have read too much into my suggestion... I was merely stating that a simple turn to B&W could eliminate chroma values as a possible reason for the OP's issues. I never intended to suggest for him to deliver all of his footage from the S1 as B&W.

If it's a 4:20 vs. 4:22 issue, then you could desaturate the footage you already shot and the artifacts should disappear.

On 11/29/2022 at 11:33 AM, TomTheDP said:

Yeah the 1080p is hit or miss. It can look very good but sometimes it is just noticeably soft. If it had 4k 60p then it would be a perfect camera for me. It's too bad they can't have like 2:1 compression or 3:1 that would probably open up the possibility of higher frame rates in 4k. 

The 1080p wasn't necessarily bad, it's just nowhere near as good as on the 5D3. I really want the 8bit 4K to be better than my first test. I'd like to shoot as bare bones as possible and although the DPL is a solution, it still adds unnecessary bulk to the camera. But the storage for the 8bit 4K CDNG is pretty hefty and the SD cards are astronomical. We'll see. Like I said I want to do another test before I completely give up on it. I also want to test the 48p option.

On 11/29/2022 at 9:31 AM, Anaconda_ said:

I read this is because the T7 uses a buffer for very fast writes, but also it can get full if used for longer than it was made for. Since cameras are constantly sending a lot of data, that buffer fills up very quickly.

Okay, thanks that makes sense. That may be the problem with the drive I was using. It wasn't really full at all, but I guess after a bunch of quick recordings, it was too taxing on the buffer.

On 11/29/2022 at 9:31 AM, Anaconda_ said:

I've also never had that problem with a T5 and the FP, although I mostly shoot to Braw with the FP, so it's possible I've simply not tested it enough to find any issues.

It's a shame the T5 drives aren't as readily available, or as cheap as they once were. SmallRig makes a side handle where the T5 can be inserted into the handle. It's a pretty nifty solution.

Can you confirm this... I just watched a YouTube video and the guy said the the picture profile was baked into Braw footage. Well, he specifically said that the OFF profile was baked in, but I assume that all are? If so, that's kinda weird.

On 11/29/2022 at 9:31 AM, Anaconda_ said:

I've not heard of the Sandisk Pro Blade before, but it doesn't look much smaller than the Lacie Rugged disks. I think the DPL option is the most compact way to record externally, but it's also one of the more expensive routes.  

I suppose it seems like I am contradicting myself... I probably am. My goal is to make the rig as compact as humanly possible, for most shooting, but I can see some benefits to rigging it out with a V-mount and using it on sticks and/or a dana dolly for more controlled shoots. In those instances, is my curiosity about the Sandisk Blade system.

MPB seems pretty reasonable when you're looking to trade. After answering a few simple questions, they give you a quote and how much it will save you toward whatever you're looking to buy. They'll even hold the camera/lens for you until they get your gear and assess it.

To be clear though... I've only gotten a quote from them and never went through the entire process. The offer seemed reasonable but definitely on the lower end. For the ease of the process, it may be worth it.

I've never really had an issue with eBay, but I have heard horror stories. I make sure I am extremely honest in my listing, but also make it clear that I'm not an expert and that this is used gear so it is being sold AS IS. The last I checked eBay takes 12%. If you're a new seller, there may be a grace period for you to receive the funds until there is proof of tracking.

That said, I'm always wary because I'll get offers from people with very few feedback scores. I usually only sell at a Buy it Now price with a Best Offer option. I usually list on the higher end to weed out the riff-raff but I still get a lot of lowball offers I'll either ignore or decline. Sometimes you get some sob stories... "it's Christmas and I really want to surprise my pregnant wife, whose about to give birth in a manger, a camera, can you accept 10% of the asking price... blah... blah-blah... blah"

Honestly, I don't quite understand why Panasonic shooters are still complaining about their AF? This isn't 2014, if you need AF go buy a Canon or Sony. It's not like Panasonic is leaps and bounds ahead of Canon and Sony with video features any more. In fact, they're probably lacking.

10 minutes ago, TomTheDP said:

I think the cable does matter. I have had no issues with my T5 setup, which I used on the last feature I did. I just did a little vacation and used the Dark Power option as it is just more compact. Internal recording was part of the reason I went with the FP, but using a cable kind of kills that. I do have the cable clamped on both ends when I use it.

The drive I have in the Dark Power setup is an NVMe PM991a 512gb ssd. No issues so far with it in 4k 12bit. I might get more drives for it if I hold onto it long enough. 

 

Okay thanks. Do you remember what brand you're using? Also were you doing a lot of starting/stopping when using your Dark Power Labs set up?

I abbe to test the internal recording a bit more... I was hoping I'd like the footage more than I do. Like I said, other than the higher ISO capabilities of the FP, my 5D3 seems to look much nicer than the internal 1080p on the FP. Granted it adds some slow motion options. I think I need to go out and just test the 8bit cDNG. I hate the amount of data it burns through with the cost of SD cards, but it's definitely the most option of the camera.

1 hour ago, TomTheDP said:

I know its off topic but are you saying the internal CDNG 3200 iso isn't useful in HD or both HD and 4K? I have personally found 3200 iso to be incredibly useful, really one of the highlights of the camera for me. I just expose for the subject and it handles highlights really well, even though they appear to be blown in the camera monitor. 

So, I wasn't too clear there, but I saw on the B&H specs page, for the FP, that the native dual-iso, in internal cDNG (8bit 4K & 12bit 1080p) is 100 on the low-end, and 640 for the high. B&H specs aren't always correct, but they usually are. I need to do more research to see if that's the case. I'd imagine the image is still fairly clean regardless, but I am planning on only shooting on the two native ISOs on the FP. YMMV.

I totally agree about ISO 3200... it's one of the best features of the camera... in the woods, even in mid-day, bumping up to 3200 and using ND filtration makes a drastic improvement in overall IQ without the need for extra lighting, and/or reflectors. I love the way the highlights are handled as well. Even a bright sky that's basically blown out has a nice softness to it. 

I love the clean, modern image I'm getting from the FP, and it's small size, but if not for the 3200 ISO feature, I may not even keep the camera. I find my 5D to be an overall nicer shooting experience with only a minimal bump in IQ for the FP. The workflows are actually very similar so it seems like a great in-betweener camera for me when I need higher ISO or where a little extra resolution can be beneficial.

1 hour ago, TomTheDP said:

I haven't heard of the Sandisk Pro Blade but it looks like a good solution. I have been using a 3rd Party SSD solution from Dark Power Lab, which I really like due to it being cordless. 

In their marketing Sandisk try and sell that this product is already part of established professional productions and workflows... I think it may be a little hype. But it seems like a cool option.

I'm also looking at the Dark Power Lab option. I almost purchased their basic set up last week, but after looking at the cost and availability of the internal nVME drives, I was a little discouraged. It seems like the size could be outdated soon enough. I also saw on YouTube that they tend to get kinda hot. What brand nVME are you using? It seems Sabrent, Samsung and WD are the only options. I'm very run and gun, so overheating frightens me a little and compatibility is a concern. I may shoot a dozen short shots in as many minutes, and then jump right into a dialogue scene that I'm getting coverage for. I need it to be reliable. Shooting with the Kingston SSD the other day, which is not on Sigma's recommended list, basically made the camera unusable. I haven't had ANY hiccups shooting with my 5D and the ML Raw hack for over 5 years... so having my camera recording stop in the middle of a take was pretty disheartening. This isn't a hacked camera.

Perhaps the supplied cable has something to do with it... I read somewhere that 3.1 generation is important to how the FP operates with the USB-C. I believe the Kingston and others like the T7 are using 3.2 so even with the faster speeds, I guess there may be some kind of compatibility issue. I may buy a new cable and test it out because the size of those Kingston drives is pretty tiny. Sabrent also makes one called the Rocket Mini, so if you, and others, are using Sabrent nVME drives with your DPL, then that might be an alternative option as well. I think I need a little more testing and some research before I drop the money into DPl... even though that seems like the best option if it works and the drives aren't too expensive.