Lars Steenhoff

Agreed, slimRAW is a great workaround even if it does add a step to the ingest process. But it's a shame the Sigma probably won't see a lossless or lossy DNG variant that may have allowed 12 bit internal recording. Still, external SSDs are cheap and it allows for fast offloads. I do hope Apple ultimately prevails here though.

It's a zero issue, trust me, you can mark my words and the usual suspects save their hate against RED... LOL : P
I speak by myself attached to my T5 1TB ; )
 
And FYI or all of those who may eventually have no notice yet of his presence here, Mihail @cpc the developer himself is among us in this community : -)

It's worse, applying jpeg2000 to Bayer is obvious and at video rates rediculously obvious.  Plus we discuss using jpeg2000 for Bayer at video rates looking to the higher than 2k resolution era publicly before Red patent or even existence I think, so that in itself would make it unpatentable, as prior public knowledge.  Stuff, I'm the one that suggested to them 4k, do I get to patent everything 4k, of course not!
They only get to patent one particular type of new Bayer compression algorithm and the unique, new unobvious differences in it.  That's how it is suppose to work.

https://www.stopfakes.gov/article?id=Is-My-US-Patent-Good-in-Other-Countries
 
Its only for the USA right?
So if a company makes a compressed raw video camera and does not sell it in the US it will be fine?
 
 

I'm personally hoping we can get MLV in through the back door. I think it would be great if MLV could see some more widespread use, it is a very versatile format that should be compatible with any camera, open source too, which makes it the best option in my opinion.
I am finding ways to convert all the main raw formats to MLV. I'm also writing a library that video editing software can use to support MLV.
I downloaded someone's Sigma FP footage on this forum, and it converts to MLV easily. Opened up in MLV App:
Also does anyone know where I can download more FP dng samples?

I'm happy to go with the sigma fp
And compress later on the computer with slimraw.
In a way it a good thing compressed raw is not coming so we have even beter quality with uncompressed.
The only thing I wish for was lossless compressed raw, and I don't think thats covered by the red patent.
I think the patent was about lossy compressed only.
 

And by they way. if recording to an external ssd via usb-c it is technically not recording internally right?
so any camera manufacturer can implement compressed raw over usb-c

I'm happy to go with the sigma fp
And compress later on the computer with slimraw.
In a way it a good thing compressed raw is not coming so we have even beter quality with uncompressed.
The only thing I wish for was lossless compressed raw, and I don't think thats covered by the red patent.
I think the patent was about lossy compressed only.
 

A firmware update is out that fixes the CinemaDNG problems:
https://www.sigma-global.com/en/news/2019/11/08/2329/

Thanks so much, others have dived into this earlier and i'm still looking.
@rawdigger The 8 bit file is not linear, each DNG has a linearisation table which is the correct thing to do. I wanted to find out whether the 10 bit did the same and it seems that it might not. This means ironically that the 8 bit files in day to day use are probably going to to better quality (make better use of a limited format) than the 10 bit. As we know in linear the very last stop of light uses half the available values and the first 3 stops are represented by just 7 different values...
If there is one thing we should do - it is to petition sigma to encode the 10 bit files with a table like the 8. That way we can achieve the same sort of quality as the 12bit files.
Of course this is assuming they are not reading the sensor at this point in 10 bit mode which is one of the sensor modes possible.
IMHO this is a show stopper for me getting one as a B cam. 12 bit is only 24p and i need 25 at least.
I am waiting for clarification from sigma themselves but if others can chime in then maybe we can get them to consider doing this, i can't imagine it is *that* much work.
As for downsampling i am guessing they are scaling the RGGB layers before bayering it. I think by doing this they are making up for a lack of OLPF which is why the detail is lower.
I am so close to getting one as it's really what i am looking for, a sensor in a box that gives me pretty much what it sees. But there are a few caveats to sort through!
cheers
Paul

The thread is sleeping, so I thought about sharing updates after having used the S1 for a month (and the newly announced firmware updates are a good occasion for that !).
So I used the S1 during a 1 month arctic journey across northern Swedish mountains and Norway in last September/October. I only took the S1, for photo and video, and brought with me the 24-105 f4 kit lens and the Sigma 14-24 2.8 dg dn (the new one, designed for mirrorless) which I brought 3 weeks before I left home.
I wanted to film (not doing time lapse) the northern lights, but we were not very lucky with the intensity of lady aurora, despite one or two explosions in the sky, and the f2.8 aperture of the sigma was not enough. I will soon sell the Sigma and buy a 20 1.4 Sigma art, and maybe wait for the newly announced pana 16-35 f4... (or a used canon 16-35 f4).
I was a bit frustrated with longer reach need, because, when I bought the S1, I thought the ex.tele converter worked the same as on Sony (clear zoom if I remember) and on the GH5 and G9. So I did not bring any tele for this trip (despite still having at home a Canon 200 f2.8 L ii prime at that time), hoping to film with the 24-105 at 105mm in apsc mode + exteleconv. Some days before leaving home, I discovered that it does not work in 4k… So on 1 or 2 occasions, to film wildlife or distant landscape, I used 1080, and pixel/pixel mode. I checked the results at home on my computer, and the results are really really awful eheh ! APSC mode is, on the other hand, really good ; so, in the end, I had a little reach on some occasions.
I really love the range of the 24-105, and find it very useful. Fot this kind of trip, it is perfect ; maybe the newly announced (yeah, so much "newly announced" today !) Sigma art 24-70 f2.8 dg dn will be better, I'll keep a close eye on it. The Sigma 14-24 f28 dg dn is a wonderful lens for photos, sharp enough for me in the corner, light etc. But the inability to put a vari nd on it was useless for video. I bought it for nighttime auroras filming, but a 20 1.4 + a wide zoom that takes filters will serve me better.
I encountered minor bugs  : occasionally, when I pressed the review button to check my images, it said "no valid pictures on card". Had to turn off the camera and I could access again my images. I had 1 or 2 freezes (really less than my fujis that used to freeze very very often) too. Ah, and the camera is slooooooooow to operate. Drives me crazy when in a rush !
All in all, it worked very well, even during snow storms and -10°C temperatures, and was covered with ice and used under rain with no problems. The handling and controls are phenomenal, especially in shitty conditions.
So far, I only reviewed my footage on my computer since I came back home, and I barely touched the camera again (little time) but I managed to play with some clips. The Vlog shots are gorgeous... really ! I tried to play with them with filmconvert nitrate and varicam profile (I need to try the """newly announced""" ? S1 profiles), and with the varicam luts supplied by panasonic, and I love everything about it : colors, look... I think i prefer the result I obtain by applying Resolve's color space transform to the vlog clip, and then tweaking it to taste. I am still learning and, thus, is a horrible color corrector, but with minor stuff applied, I obtain a really pleasing result.  I also filmed a lot with Cine-d and HLG. The former seems to be very good, and the latter... I still did not figure out how to treat it in Resolve eheh. I wish I had more time to learn the camera prior to departure, because I played with the flat profile last week-end, and I really like it too. One thing I instantly noticed is the iso capabilities : amazing !
I sadly found some missed focus shots while reviewing my clips. More than I wanted... I mainly used MF, but with a lot of "AF first then switch to MF", and maybe the struggling AF in low contrast scene + not always easy to check the focus peaking in bad weather conditions + my poor fillmmaking skills are to blame.
On the still side, not a lot of things to say : wonderful high iso performance, very flexible files... everything you want from a modern 24mp sensor. A great machine for my use : landscape, documentary, astro photo...

Sorry for the very unprofessional review ahah, hope some of you will find something useful. I attach just for the fun an image I took inside the tent, after a short night (I still have to post process my photos). Don't pay attention to the "clean" appearance of the camera... I was always wiping it, as it was often covered with snow and rain ? 

I will sell my Sigma 14-24 2.8 and, in the future, I will slowly build  a kit with a wide angle prime, lenses like the samyang 135 f2, takumar 50 1.4, and maybe the coming panasonic S lenses...
But for now, I will add the smallrig cage for the S1 + a cheap 5.5" monitor, and I think about buying a Panasonic G9 + pana leica 200 f2.8 + tc (unbelievable sales + cashback right now) . It will allow me to "deport" the long reach video and photo use to this setup.

@omega1978 sorry, I promised you to take sample images with the sigma 14-24, but I did not find time to do it before leaving. Did you put your hands on it ??

Ok here are two shots, both CINE mode, one uncropped, one APS-C cropped.
aps_crop_A001_005_20191106_000012.DNG non_crop_A001_006_20191106_000001.DNG
OK, here you go, 8bit , 10bit, 12bit all from CINE mode and a 14bit still- sorry it wasn't on a tripod so the camera moved slightly
still-SDIM0189.DNG 12bit-A001_007_20191106_000006.DNG 10bit-A001_006_20191106_000005.DNG 8bit-A001_005_20191106_000004.DNG
 
We really need that firmware update for shooting to SSD- I exchanged my 500GB T5 for the 1GB version in hopes it might fix the issue, but no, a handful of CDNG clips are still coming in with frames misplaced in the sequence, and I don't have the patience anymore to go through them and try to correct the order.

Ok I’ll do that in a bit.

bit of moire on the bridge:
 
 

This isn't going to sell the camera to anyone, but I will say, having completely written off the 8-bit raw before I even got the camera, I was intrigued by the article here to give it a go, and while you can't push the grade like you can with the 12-bit, having the benefit of being able to adjust the white balance after the fact is really great, and I'm totally sold on using the 8-bit. Just sucks that a fast UHS-II card with a fraction of the capacity is more expensive than a 500gb T5. (Or half-glass full, awesome that a T5 is cheaper than a fast UHS-II card with a fraction of the capacity!)
Shot with the Sigma MC-21and the Canon thrifty fifty (which is a horrible combination btw, the slowest focusing I've ever seen, they're both going back). Works great in manual. Looking forward to some stabilized L-Mounts.

Andrew could you upload a short video sequence of Sigma FP DNGs?
I want to test it with a new tool I'm working on that converts any raw format to MLV raw video (MLV, from magic lantern as you know).
It's called raw2mlv and source code can be found here: https://github.com/ilia3101/LibMLV

Ah gotcha.

I'm not really directing this at you but just to anyone in general who isn't aware or wants to learn more, and I'm probably being a 'stickler for accuracy' here but obviously a sensor/camera has no inherent highlight rolloff as the sensor is linear (as close as practically possible with calibration) so highlight rolloff is mostly down to the dynamic range of the sensor, how the image is exposed and how the colourist chooses to roll off the highlights. All typical CMOS sensors will have "hard clipping" though, being linear capture devices.
I only say this because I see a few people mention 'highlight rolloff' as part of a log curve or colour science or something when in that respect it is just a by-product of the log curve optimising the dynamic range of the sensor in the container its being stored in. It's still assumed the user will create their own highlight rolloff in grading (I'm speaking just of RAW and log captures, not "profiles" or looks applied in camera intended for display on Rec.709 devices).

ARRI for example have a lot of stops above where they recommend middle grey be exposed for - due partly to their very large pixels and the large dynamic range they have - and when a log curve is calculated for mapping that dynamic range from middle grey to 940 (video white in 10bit where they map sensor saturation to in their log curves) you get a very flat curve at the top as it maps that range. When you flatten contrast that much it also appears to desaturate. I've seen some mention they believe ARRI purposely desaturate their highlights, but if they did that in processing before creating RAW files or LogC ProRes clips you wouldn't be able to inverse it correctly into linear for ACES workflows etc because processing like that is non-linear. They possibly do something like that for their LogC to Rec709 LUTs etc but people seem to attribute it to their LogC/RAW files too.

For our cameras we map sensor saturation at our "native ISO" to 940 also, but for ISO curve's above we go into "super whites" to make better use of the bit depth available especially since we deal so much with SDI output (10bit) and ProRes 422HQ is common for our customers (10bit also). ARRI says ProRes 444 (12bit) is the minimum for LogC because they don't use the full range available. We may change that in the future but the caveat would also be you would need to use 12bit for best results.
In theory you could expose a 10 stop camera/sensor so that you place middle grey at the second bottom stop, giving you 8 stops to create a very gentle highlight rolloff. You would just have VERY little range for the shadows. ?

So long story short, the question I would suggest people ask is 'what is the dynamic range like compared to other cameras' as that will really tell you what kind of highlight roll off YOU (the user) can create for your preference with how you like to expose given the amount of shadow information you like to retain, tolerance for noise, etc.

I think using right angle HDMI and USB-C connectors and channeling them upwards would alleviate any concerns I'd have about it but its early days yet anyway so no doubt cages with clamps will be along before long.
Also, if you are only recording internally, then as the live streaming video above shows, the FP is a UVC compliant device so you will be able to plug it into your phone and use that as a monitor with any number of UVC apps.
 

Thats a lazy way to attach the ssd ! 

Pretty cool, livesteam over usb
 

Pretty cool, livesteam over usb
 

No need for an Atomos.
Just a usb 3 ssd like a samsung t5

I'd like to see it against the Sigma FP and Nikon with 12 bit RAW.