Andrew Reid

That's the problem with LOG. It always has a look baked in and it takes serious effort to get the best out of it and tailoring to a particularly scene. Whereas with RAW it is so much easier to get it looking cinematic. Magic Lantern RAW on the 5D Mark III in 3.5K still ranks above 95% of the camera market in terms of just image quality.

Will do a test later in low light and see if the Fp-L holds up at high ISOs because it is a 9.5K sensor. The most data at 24fps it can do is 7K crop at 30ms rolling shutter, but the pixel binned 4K from full frame 9.5K has held up really well so far, it doesn't really have any moire or aliasing and dynamic range is fully intact.

Native LOG gamut, I can get it looking a lot better but wanted to a quick and dirty look at the files with minimum of corrections. The DNG RAW just comes out lovely with no effort.

Also I feel it has that "digs deep in the shadows" look that cinema cameras have whereas F-LOG and OM-LOG look like animated GIFs in the shadows, and too much in way of crushed blacks.

12 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Bet the OG Pocket Cinema Camera could have given us 2K raw (rather than maxing out at 1080) if not for RED.

They did 2.5K before that on the Cinema Camera.

It was when they introduced 3:1 compression in Cinema DNG that RED sued.

Nothing to stop them doing 2K Cinema DNG uncompressed.

It is quite a nice format and file sizes not too bad at that res.

Sigma Fp does cinema DNG today.

Blackmagic's response was to rip it out entirely, because they had the ulterior motive to sell us BRAW.

12 hours ago, IronFilm said:

"oh noes, someone else is already doing 5:1, guess we'll just have to make our patent be for everything 6:1 and greater!"

Where are all the 5:1 compressed RAW codecs then if the patent doesn't apply to those?

12 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Not really, is there a massive difference between 24fps or 23fps?? Or 22fps and 21fps? Or 18fps and 17fps? Or 9fps and 8fps?

Yes

12 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Sony already had on offer 12bit 444

It's not RAW though. It is debayered with white balance baked in.

12 hours ago, IronFilm said:

And there were already numerous cameras shooting raw such as SI-2K & Viper 

I don't think one or two cameras count as numerous?

Not even Sony F35 had RAW and that was a huge oversight by Japan.

12 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Where might Blackmagic be today if not for the landmines they've had to step around which RED has placed? 

I don't think it has hurt Blackmagic.

It spurred them into doing their own RAW codec for a start.

Plus Blackmagic cameras sell just fine and Resolve is really flying.

Blackmagic make a lot of their money from broadcast as well, where RAW recording isn't really sought after.

12 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Might AJA or Digital Bolex had a second chance of success with another follow up camera if they first camera didn't have to worry about strife from RED lawyers?

Neither of them ever had to worry about RED!

Digital Bolex was always against any compression of any kind.

They weren't even interested in doing 4K.

AJA Cion was a lovely idea but ultimately didn't sell. Not because of the lack of REDCODE but because of other reasons.

12 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Even worse, what is the unseen? How many companies don't even exist and never tried because of RED? 

My camera company doesn't exist and I squarely blame a rich sunglasses salesman for that.

18 hours ago, Eric Calabros said:

They should have patented the algorithm of compression, not the compression itself, because 1- compressing raw data is obvious 2- done before on still raw up to 5-6 fps in DSLRs, like Nikon D2x.

They did didn't they? They patented the whole thing. The entire video camera system with RAW recording.

Let's shoot some quick a dirty dynamic range tests

Here's mine, on the balcony

First is Sigma Fp-L in 8bit Cinema DNG RAW

Second is OM System OM-1 in 10bit LOG 4K:

A clear win for the Sigma Fp-L

You will need a bigger effort to get the best out of the OM-LOG

The Fp-L RAW seems to have that creamy RED EPIC / ALEXA look to me straight out of the can

And it doesn't sacrifice a boat load of colour to achieve such a wide DR.

This was in full frame mode to SD card.

I am sure the external 10bit and 12bit is even better in the highlights.

It could be used at 1/50 with NDs for stills.

That makes it pretty bullet proof as far as banding goes in 50hz PAL countries.

They haven't got a flicker reduction mode in the menus though.

It is a bit of an oversight.

Camera always seems to select 1/60 indoors for me, even though I set the minimum Auto ISO shutter speed at 1/50!

1 hour ago, Ryan Earl said:

Nikon patent's relating to image compression that was cited:

https://patents.google.com/patent/US6958774B2/en

I'm not saying it helps.

Thanks. Probably doesn't help them much as this compression is designed for still images, rather than 24fps cinema.

Yet it remains their best hope, that RED have infringed a Nikon patent, and then they can do a swap.

Anyone know what date the trial is set for?

So RED patent was 2 days earlier than Silicon Imaging's and the work on REDCODE started in December 2005.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US9245314B2

Covered on EOSHD previously during the Apple vs RED suit.

https://www.eoshd.com/news/red-respond-to-apple-in-patent-raw-wars/

Apple tried to argue it was not novel and an obvious to combine the Presler patent with other work.

The court decided otherwise.

We are not patent lawyers so I can't say the court got it wrong. That bit is outside my understanding.

From Graeme Nattress during the Apple trial:

“I first met Mr Jim Jannard in December 2005. At that meeting, we discussed his desire to create the first ever digital motion picture camera that could record compressed digital motion video at cinema quality levels, including 4K. I was intrigued by the possibilities, because combining the ease and flexibility of post-production of digital video while maintaining cinema-quality frame rate and resolution would be a game-changer in the world of movie making. But I also knew that digital compression was highly disfavored in the movie camera industry…

“To solve this problem, one key area I researched was the use of an image sensor with a Bayer-pattern filter. This was one of several unconventional avenues we explored at RED. At the time, such sensors were associated with lower-quality consumer-grade video cameras and derided as incapable of providing cinema-quality video due to artefact and resolution issues. In contrast, the industry consensus held that cinema quality cameras would need to utilize three sensors, with a prism to split red, green and blue light to each sensor. However, we believed that the benefits of a Bayer-pattern image sensor could be optimized if the image data remained in raw, mosaiced format for compression. We believed that such a data workflow could allow the raw digital files to operate as a digital negative, and world provide all of the post-production flexibility of being able to manipulate the original raw data.”

“Immediately following my December 2005 meeting with Mr. Jannard, I began working on the design of RED’s first commercial digital motion picture camera that would become known as the RED ONE. This work would last all throughout 2006 and into 2007 when we commercially launched the RED ONE video camera. My title on the RED ONE project was Problem Solver, and it remains my title to this day.”

“Paragraphs 22-28 of my 2014 declaration explain how we rejected…conventional thinking by implementing known compression techniques, such as JPEG 2000, in such a way as to operate on non-demosaiced Bayer-pattern image data, a type of image data these techniques were not designed to work on.”

“Accordingly, my work on the RED ONE camera was based on a video image processing pipeline that did not include a conventional demosaicing step prior to compression.”

“… The raw Bayer-pattern image data was then sent to a Xilinx processing FPGA chip for pixel correction and processing of the raw Bayer-pattern image data.”

“… The pixel- corrected and processed raw Bayer-pattern video image data was then sent to Analog Devices compression chips, which utilized a mathematically lossy wavelet compression codec known as JPEG 2000, to compress the processed raw Bayer- pattern video image data.”

“… The compressed raw Bayer-pattern image video data was sent to a memory device, by way of a SATA port, for storage as a raw data file that at one point in development was given a .JIM file extension in homage to Mr. Jannard and the new file type that RED had created.”

“We referred to the above programing for the RED ONE cameras, and the resulting raw compressed data files that it generated, as REDCODE.”

1 hour ago, Ryan Earl said:

It's interesting to me that Nikon has a patent for image compression in a camera that RED cited in their patent application.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US9565419B2/en

That link is to the Presler patent I think?

1 hour ago, Ryan Earl said:

The other thing I found interesting about all this is that the 'Presler' patent that Apple had tried to use to show that RED wasn't novel was filed only a few days after RED's application.  Apple tried to get RED's date moved forward to give Presler priority.  

https://patents.google.com/patent/US20100111489A1/en

Yeah I remember this now. Was very interesting and a lot of controversy over the timing of RED's patent and the public reveal of the tech at trade shows.

1 hour ago, Ryan Earl said:

With the timing of the two patents being so close anyway I don't see how RED is justified to pursue others so vehemently.  BUT the Presler Patent is certainly not as well written as RED's patent since it sounds so much more specific to cinema cameras, 24 frames a second, at least 2K, visually lossless compressed RAW and a 'novel' method for doing it.  

I'm presuming that patent for Presler would have been the one to use for the SI-2K which recorded Cineform RAW and was advertised as compressed RAW, but the 'visually lossless' part was not emphasized I don't think as well.  But wasn't Cineform RAW introduced in 2005?

Did the SI-2K record Cineform RAW internally or was it a camera head, with separate recorder?

5 hours ago, IronFilm said:

I disagree, there is nothing novel at all to say "hey what gets done to one image, we could to twenty four of them!"

Of course there's a HUGE difference between doing it to 1 frame and 24 per second motion.

In terms of a concept that is the difference between an SLR and a cinema camera.

Patents are very specific so even slight differences in concepts and it is considered novel.

I don't hear you criticising Sony for ignoring the need for compressed RAW codecs back in the early 2000s when they had a chance to do something about it.

5 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Many many many bad patents are given out, and many bad patents are upheld and left standing when they shouldn't be. 

https://web.archive.org/web/20220306171619/https://falkvinge.net/2011/06/21/ten-myths-about-patents/ 

And when the RED ONE was released, the same was still true! Most were still shot on film, not the RED ONE. 

How many compressed RAW shooting digital cinema cameras were out before the RED ONE?

Come on, got to stay alive for the Panasonic GH7 with RED RAW but still no phase detect autofocus.

3 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

Talking of defending patents and remote islands where there may or may not be an underground lair, has anyone heard from Jinnitech recently ?

Apparently RED Motion Mount was from a small company that could have revolutionised the industry.

https://tessive.com/mechanical-shutter-comparison

RED gobbled them up along with the patents.

Which is probably why there is not a Tessive Time Filter and variable ND for the Panasonic GH6!

Really nice technology once again being locked up on Jim's island away from commoners like us.

Good job he was too distracted with sun glasses when the CMOS sensor was invented otherwise we'd still be shooting film!

But again I have to ask... Where the fuck was Canon, Sony, Panasonic, Fuji etc. when Jim was all over the Tessive Time Filter?

For price of a months worth of sandwiches at Sony HQ they could have bought the tech.

If there was a long line of compressed RAW cinema cameras before 2005 from Sony and Canon, then the RED patent wouldn't be novel.

But there wasn't.

I am not angry at RED any more.

I am more annoyed at corporate Japan for failing us.

25 minutes ago, cpc said:

This isn't novelty though. This is a basic example of inevitable evolution.

Well we'll see what the Z9 case brings. I can't see Nikon getting anywhere with it to be honest.

2 hours ago, IronFilm said:

It just rips off JPEG 2000

The novelty is they applied it to 24fps RAW video in a solid state recorder/camera.

2 hours ago, IronFilm said:

RED wasn't doing anything radically new that nobody else could imagine happening.

Yes they were.

Otherwise the patent wouldn't still be standing.

2 hours ago, IronFilm said:

They were very broad with that, as broad as they felt they could get away with? There was no other basis to it I feel. 

It wasn't broad at the time.

Sony, Canon, Panasonic, etc. were all asleep and most top films were shot on film.

Canon had MiniDV cameras at the time when RED were patenting a very niche raw codec.

It's a pathetic showing by the corporations.

4 hours ago, MrSMW said:

I’d like to see the FP-L with the Panny 24-105 f4. That would cover the lack of IBIS for one thing.

Rear tilt mounted Ninja V would open up options AND compensate (improve upon even) the lack of a tilt screen.

Stabilisation seems to work pretty well at first try. The camera feels pretty unbalanced with large lenses though.

Also there is one major annoyance I am having...

In stills mode mainly.

To avoid banding with the electronic shutter in stills mode under artificial light I really have to use one shutter speed... 1/50 for 50hz PAL countries.

So it really limits your exposure options for stills.

Out come the NDs pretty much all the time.

Not too bad for video as ND with 180 degree shutter is kinda default for most people.

But I've had a lot of stills shots ruined because I used Aperture priority mode and something like 1/60 shutter or 1/250. Probably the worst possible camera for sports and event photography!

For photography the Sigma Fp line will get a lot better if they progress to having a global shutter or stacked sensor in there.

1 hour ago, Django said:

And yeah a 5" display changes everything. The BM6K Pro does address that, and has NDs, and has compressed RAW.

It sort of gives with one hand and takes with the other though!

It is a tempting piece of kit.

It does show it is possible to keep the size of the camera right down, while still having a filter wheel behind the mount.

Blackmagic probably kept it EF as it is an open mount whereas the newer mirrorless mounts are a closed and recently patented system. Maybe also they couldn't fit the filter into a mirrorless mount but FS5 manages it doesn't it?

27 minutes ago, Django said:

I've posted the trailer & BTS here earlier, here is the official page: Short film "AION" Trailer by Giulio Meliani

Shot in ProRes HQ F-Log2 with the MK 18-55mm & Fujinon 19-90mm Cabrio Cinema Zoom.

 

A7S3/FX3 are solid all-rounders but the shooting experience still lacks. 

R5C has it all except IBIS with internal RAW, 8K and full video assist tools, shutter angle, LUT import etc.

XH2S is interesting as for $2500 you get 6K/4K120p, ProRes, Open Gate. Great DR & minimal RS.

I do wish the video mode would have proper exposure tools, shutter angle, LUT support.

That's still what a lot of these hybrids are missing. Only Panasonic & R5C seem to get it.

They need to make the next step:

They can keep the same small hybrid bodies, but just make the LCD larger. Why is it still only 3 inch, for example.

Would be great to have total confidence in focus.

The issue of 180 deg. look to motion and fine tuning exposure has to be brought into 2022. No more dicking about with ND filter glass. If they can't add an ND filter due to physical size constraints, patents or cost, then they need to find a way to get the look of 1/50 in bright light without NDs.

A lot of good progress with things like codecs, but compressed RAW is obviously still a big thing missing. Stills photographers wouldn't accept only shooting JPEG! So perhaps they need to get more serious about getting round the table with RED and sorting something out for the future?

IBIS is a nice-to-have but they can make it work more creatively and make the look more natural. OM-1 is the benchmark in this regard!

Also let's see manual focus take the next step. A ring on the lens barrel is hopeless for video. It should be a smooth dial on the camera all under one hand driving the lens elements semi-intelligently with subject snap on.

1 hour ago, BTM_Pix said:

That would just encourage this type of thumbnail.

 

Scene... nothing

Take... nothing

Roll... nada

Director nobody

Sound blank

Cameraman missing.

Just about sums up modern filmmaking world!!

It makes a Canon EOS R5C look like a biscuit tin.

The transition ARRI made from film cameras to digital has been masterful. Some of the best engineering ever in any industry ever.

Must be such a huge challenge to keep the electronics cool when they are so densely packed and sealed in.

And that they are made to last a decade without going obsolete, is also a huge difference between ARRI and the rest.

10 minutes ago, Eric Calabros said:

What's up with this dance trend in promotional videos? It should give me information, not entertainment. I can evaluate the noise and DR in a single frame from a simple shot.. just show me a dark room with a bright window.

The male model dancing was clearly an attempt to break the usual mould of attractive woman and shallow DOF. However given that maybe 80-90% of the customers for this camera are men, it has probably backfired as a marketing tool failing to be attractive eye candy and failing to demonstrate the capabilities of the camera. So a double win there by Fuji. I have an idea for their marketing work-from-home chinless wonders. Why not shoot a SHORT FILM WITH ACTORS if you want to demo a new filmmaking tool!

7 hours ago, Brian Williams said:

I was really tempted when I saw this announcement the other day, but after reading a handful of reviews, I realized I was experiencing the X-T4 all over again, just with 6K ProRes this time. Same iffy AF, same sticky IBIS, basically all the things Andrew mentioned. I think I’ll stick with my GH6, if I have to rely on manual focus, I might as well go with the camera that offers better stabilization.

Compared to X-T4 although it is certainly the better camera, it's also much more expensive. When it comes out, inevitably in short stock at £2500 or so in the UK, you will be able to pick up a mint X-T4 on eBay for about £1000.

Main differences are 4K/120p (cropped), anamorphic modes and the ProRes. For me ProRes LT should be in there as it stands up really well. ProRes 422 and HQ have enormous file sizes so are less practical. LT is just as fluid to edit and grade.  If I want 700Mbit/s file sizes I'd probably just shoot BRAW instead. On the other hand, if main selling point is the 4k/120p and one has £2500 to spend then for not a huge amount more you could get a full frame 4K/120 camera or even an EPIC-X (5K 120fps). If you need an anamorphic mode, 4K/120p (given the 4K/120p is similar crop on both) and ProRes all in same camera then GH6 is cheaper at £1999 and has the lovely HDR sensor readout too.

The 6K open gate and anamorphic mode is probably what I am interested in most, really glad Fuji put that in.

But iffy AF, sticky IBIS and still no real progress with things that matter (exposure, NDs, larger screens) mean there are compelling alternatives.

OM-1 I am really impressed with. The image is SUPERB. The IBIS is really natural. AF is Sony/Canon level bullet proof. It is currently one of the best all-round shooting experiences for the money!

Put an ARRI sky panel S360 in there 🙂

Wide angle is always pretty bad for IBIS. Better off switching to a lens with OIS at 24mm or wider or just turning it off.

Wide angle shots don't need a ton of stabilisation.

AF is probably better at 16mm than 28mm. Less work for the camera to do as there's a much deeper DOF going on.

33 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

I think the color science was better on the GH2 with Hacks than is on the GH5. I see it seems better on the GH6 than GH5, so progress. 

GH2 certainly had character. Distinctive colour science.

With the GH3 they switched to a Sony sensor for first time.

GH4 they modernised the image processor quite a bit for 4K.

GH5 I think has really nice colour science especially in 10bit but it is way more modern and clean.

GH6 is more of the same I think, whereas the OM-1 has more character. It's not just the sensor or colour profiles, or LOG and which LUT, but how the white balance is baked in as well.

Sometimes a bit of weirdness is good for character.

I tell myself that when looking in a mirror too!

LOL!

RED's overall group of patents is:

Compression of RAW video in-camera, recorded to solid state media at 24fps or more, and it is lossless

So it wouldn't apply to a 2005 XDCAM, which shoots MPEG to memory cards or DV to tape.

In those cameras Sony takes the RAW sensor data and compresses the hell out of it in-camera, but at no point does any of that RAW data go down on the tape or media as RAW values. It is MPEG. Similar to today's codecs or MP4.

So whilst Sony was dicking about with Mini DV and MP4, RED was doing RAW video for Peter Jackson.

So it is worth remembering that Graeme Nattress invented the first patented compressed cinema RAW codec.

Whether we like RED as a company or not, or think that they should relinquish control so we as filmmakers can benefit from more competition in compressed RAW cameras, is unfortunately irrelevant as far as patent laws go.