Andrew Reid

Check out the GX9 prices

1 hour ago, BTM_Pix said:

I've now got a vision of the prostitute reaching for the marketing team's trousers and whispering "Lets Get Undone".

Thanks for that.

Now it's in my head as well, where's that ignore button when you need it?! 😉

I just wrote an entire Black Mirror episode based on camera marketing and it actually came out quite well as a piece of dystopian satire.

If anyone has any good ideas for it DM me.

But please no sad washed-up social media grifter with a cat characters.

It is a friendship, just a very transactional one. Only in this case the prostitute is not waiting patiently in Knightsbridge at a fancy bar.

It's me.

At the start of this Canadian video somebody says that although Panasonic paid for their hotel, travel and lunch, and that they rubbed shoulders with Panasonic people and consider them friends, that definitely in no way influences the positive opinions they have about Panasonic's products, which is nicely convenient, imagine how embarrassing it would be otherwise.

No matter which way the client YouTubers spin it, the S1 II price is too high and it is being released at least 2 years too late (and that is being kind, as the original was a 2018 launch).

My problem with it is not the extensive feature set and specs, it's that huge 7 year gap and the pricing strategy, along with the rest of the product strategy which is batshit crazy, and I put my money where my mouth is by refusing the invite by Panasonic to go and praise it along with a bunch of client social media click weasels.

There are so many similar options with better lens mounts to choose from now.

And the complexity is not always a good thing. Look at how much more fun the Sigma Bf is or the minimalist Leica approach.

Had the S1 II been 2.5k and the year was 2022... Sign me up.

But as it is, I am going to pass.

May get an S9 again though as it's now under a grand, it's a fun toy.

With regards to the 51st state of shilling, if you just ignore the impact this is having on independent media, the non-embargoed opinions and journalism as a whole, then it's a perfectly mediocre review that can fit on a single side of a4.

If you get big picture though, it's near enough fascism.

An entire media platform singing in tune under a corporate embargo.

Charlie Brooker should make a Black Mirror episode out of it. I might write one myself.

It would be far more enjoyable than making your average 2025 camera 'review'.

2 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

Maybe they went with that old fashioned notion of believing that the actual President of the United States wouldn't say that Canada is the 51st state unless it had any basis in reality whatsoever.

Schoolboy error that one.

 

The 51st state of American YouTube

Everyone is approaching this in their own way I suppose.

YouTuber's want to bring the hype in their main role as client journalists, I use the term journalist very lightly, the aim to strengthen their access to future launches and to reward the paymaster. Of course they've also got an eye on the view-counts and click-revenue, it's all going down as the camera market shrinks. They need to hype stuff, to get the numbers up. The more the numbers fall, the more repetitive embargoed hyperbolic shit you will see from these channels.

Panasonic loyal users are approaching it from the angle of, well, we waited 7 years and still love our S1H/S1, etc. and the S1 II is by no means a bad camera, new sensor and lots of nice video modes, so £3000 isn't so bad and I will agree with them and the reasons they have for making the purchase.

I meanwhile am coming at it less from the specs and image quality side at the moment (I don't have the demo units and don't plan to buy it either), so coming at it more from the big picture stuff, the market strategy and industry POV especially where it concerns Panasonic's survival, and whether they are doing enough to take market share off Canon, Nikon, Sony and Fujifilm, so that their higher-ups can justify them existing for much longer. This is very important for me, as I have a long history with Panasonic's products and we can't afford to lose a brand as important as Lumix from cameras.

Plus I just want to see some fucking creativity.

I am so tired of the same old formula of camera design and the lack of a basic exposure feature such as an ND filter is a tragic joke at this point.

Just some thoughts on the current situation.

https://www.eoshd.com/news/the-panasonic-s1-ii-pricing-is-wrong-so-is-the-entire-product-strategy/

TLDR:

You can't charge £3000+ for a 24 megapixel camera in 2025 without a flagship sensor anywhere to be seen.

Plus, they have made us wait 7 years for it.

Autofocus performance only 5th, behind Sony, Nikon, Canon, OM System.

There's still no rangefinder-style L-mount camera from Panasonic to replace the Micro Four Thirds stuff, GX80, GX9, and so on. (S9 doesn't count as it doesn't have an EVF or a proper shutter in it).

Engineering doing a great job, product planning, marketing and ergonomic design is the problem. And to add to that, sensor procurement and the too-low R&D budget since 2020.

Competition have better sensors, and lower prices, and more lenses, and more popular branding, and more popular lens mounts. Not good.

Conclusion is that Panasonic's sales may fold.

And if the price keeps increasing on the current trajectory, there will be no camera market to speak of anyway.

Look at this hyperbole.

Depressing.

This is why I quit regular camera reviews, there are far more enjoyable and creative ways to do Youtube and journalism.

Why doesn't Gerald yearn to make a film instead or shoot instead? He has no interest in it. He knows his job and his role in this industry is to sell cameras.

1 minute ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

Theoretically, this is true, but in some cases, manufacturers will raise prices across the board.  In some cases, to subsidize a lower profit margin in the US while keeping the prices reasonable.  The whole thing is a freakin' mess.

Heck, Leica raised prices in Canada and the US despite that Canada added no new tariffs on them.

True, they also want to discourage cheap grey imports into the US.

1 hour ago, ArashM said:

Are these prices reflecting Tariffs? 

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1892230-REG/panasonic_dc_s1m2body_lumix_s1ii_mirrorless_camera.html

It's very unclear!

I am a bit worried about Arri suing me 🙂

Might have to be a secret release

That's a nice job the lady in the video has, shooting scientific documentaries and wildlife.

Wouldn't mind doing that myself...

2 hours ago, Simon Young said:

No OLPF, tons of moiré and slower readout than the much cheaper Z6iii (with excellent n-raw). Thanks but no thanks.

What a mess.

And the Z6 III has been out for about a year already. A dollar short and a day late.

The marketing agency working for Panasonic in the UK by the way, emailed me the wrong prices. Indeed, they emailed EVERYONE completely the wrong prices. I had to let them know, and then got a correction a few hours later.

So then which of the 5 of the 24 megapixel bodies are you guys going to choose...

The S1 II, S1 IIe, S5X, S5 II or S9?

The price of the S1 II is $600 more than the nearest competitors from Canon and Nikon, which is just absolutely deranged.

May as well get the S1R II instead?

And the S1 IIe cannibalises both the S5X and S5 II, which may as well now be dead.

It's one of the worst examples of product planning I've ever witnessed in the camera industry.

https://m.weibo.cn/status/5165620169805297#&gid=1&pid=1

38 minutes ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

Which sites?  The stuff I see on l-rumors.com basically matches up to what's been posted here - an incredibly mediocre camera which, if the price rumors are true, will not be at an extremely competitive price.

https://www.eoshd.com/news/full-panasonic-s1-ii-and-s1-iie-specs-leak-as-usual-all-18-pages-of-it/

Mediocre is the word...

So it's just an S5 II with a faster sensor then...

A mediocre slightly unergonomic mid-range body that feels and looks like it should cost £1500.

A high-end price £3500

Also very high-end lens pricing

No eND.

No ND of any description.

I also think that the lack of proprietary raw format aka Canon Raw, N-RAW, Redcode, BRAW is holding Panasonic back. Get in there with your own codec my dear. Oh, wait, they didn't buy RED so have lost that game already.

I do have a soft spot for the overall feature-set though...

The wide-aspect ratios in both video (2.4:1) and for stills.

The dual dynamic range modes and anamorphic.

Open gate and stuff.

Real-time LUTs.

But it's in such a badly marketed uninspired package, which is a real shame as I am passionate about Panasonic and their remaining unique features.

This is exactly the camera Panasonic should be producing.

29 minutes ago, cosarth said:

I'm also not a big fan of the new design BUT I remember not long ago a trend that said "If Lumix incorporates good AF with all these great features it's game over for everyone else". Maybe people now want their camera to make some coffee or give them a nice massage.

Everyone else have not been standing still, unlike Panasonic.

So at the time, which was a long time ago (when I advised Panasonic to incorporate great AF) had they done so they would have attracted a lot of Canon users especially, and others would have been tempted too.

But unfortunately for Panasonic, too much time has passed and stuff like the Z8 and EOS R5 II exist.

29 minutes ago, cosarth said:

I don't care about the sensor origin, if it's stacked or BSI or whatever. If it does the job for me I'm good. I can't see any other manufacturer giving so many features (Open Gate, DR Boost, 32 bit audio, LUT system, ProRes, waveforms, false color etc etc) in such price point and I will have no problem jumping ship if another company offers me a better package. But it's 2025 and the glorious Sony cameras don't even have shutter angle at 4500€+ price point...

FX3 does have shutter angle, if that floats your boat.

I am still very welcoming of the Panasonic exclusives... except most of them aren't exclusive any more. Open Gate especially has been adopted by quite a few other cameras, including some that can be had for under $2k.

LUT system is on the Sony a6700, ProRes is on a Fuji, and 32 bit audio is such a niche feature barely anyone is going to prioritise that above the latest sensor design and speeds.

29 minutes ago, cosarth said:

Regarding sales, I see more and more professionals in my field switching to Lumix cameras after the S5II/Χ release, before that it was a Sony monopoly.

I would like to see the hard data, the numbers

22 minutes ago, stephen said:

Panasonic older bodies are good value. New bodies are not.
S1R II sells for exactly the same price as Nikon Z8 which has faster and fully stacked sensor.

Yep that's the rub.

And even the S1 II is a partially stacked sensor, but they want £1000 more than Nikon's partially stacked Z6 III.

There's no proper cutting edge sensor option from Panasonic. The organic sensor is vapourware and they seem to be reluctant to give any money to Sony Semiconductor for a proper stacked one.

22 minutes ago, stephen said:

If rumors are true S1 IIE with same sensor as S5 II will be 2800 Euro. Same sensor with very similar specs in the form of Nikon Z5 II sells for 1700 Euro.

Yeah this makes no sense to me at all.

What is the S1 IIe doing that the S5 II doesn't to justify an increase of over 1k?

22 minutes ago, stephen said:

S1 II supposedly will have the same semi stacked 24Mpx sensor as Nikon Z6 III and will cost  3500 Euro. Nikon Z6 III current price at a local shop is 2000 Euro. I don't think Panasonic will be able to keep these prices. Andrew is right, don't see how new cameras from Panasonic can attract or entice Nikon and Sony users to switch.

They are in a perilous position at low-end of the market share percentage wise, with Pentax.

They cannot afford to do this.

They HAVE to be attracting Nikon, Sony, Canon and Fuji users. Micro Four Thirds has also become an expensive mess. The G9 II pricing is mental. It's more than a Fuji crop sensor flagship like the X-H2.

22 minutes ago, stephen said:

Maybe with some unique features like open gate or anamorphic ?

Let's hope Panasonic have done their sums on how many people are willing to dump their Z8 for these niche features.

That's not to belittle them for doing anamorphic, I'm all for it.

But as a market strategy it's no game changer, sadly.

22 minutes ago, stephen said:

For me Nikon becomes more tempting not only  because prices are significantly lower for the same sensor and similar specs but because NRaw can be edited directly in Resolve, while ProRes RAW can't. Avoiding transcoding is  a significant time saver for me if I want to shoot  RAW internally.

There are no bad cameras and it's good Lumix cameras have their fans and users.

Not to mention the file sizes of ProRes RAW create all kinds of added expenses on the media side.

43 minutes ago, Thpriest said:

As i'm a freelancer and can discount VAT I buy most of my kit new. Each country and market is different. The Sony A7iv is going for around 1800€ and the Lumix S5ii for around 1300€ on the second hand market here in Spain. That's a decent lens price difference.

When I bought the S5ii 2 years ago I got it with the Sigma 28-70 2.8 for 2590€. Discount the VAT and that's hard to compete with in my eyes. I looked at buying Sony but to buy a similar kit (2 cameras, 24-105 f4, 28-70 2.8 and 3 1.8 primes) was double the price.

Discounting the VAT if you're a VAT registered business or sole trader is a moot point when comparing between brands.

The reduction applies across the board whether it's Panasonic, Sony, Fuji or that laser printer you use in your home office.

When the Panasonic GH2 came out it cost £1099 I seem to remember and was the flagship hybrid camera from Lumix.

Inflation hasn't gone up THAT much.

What they are charging now (at £3500) is a fuck ton of money.

It leaves the whole industry open to major disruption when DJI or a Chinese smartphone manufacturer comes up with an enthusiast level alternative with the computational chops of a phone, no need to buy lenses, no need for the weight or bulk to be anything greater than a pocket compact.

The Xiaomi 14 Ultra is a sign of the future death of the mirrorless market.

But that's another story...

The mistake I think Panasonic is making relates to charging £3500 for a camera that sits in a mid-range body design, with one of the less popular mounts on the market (less common than RF, Z, E, Fuji X)

Panasonic are supposed to be attracting customers from these mounts, not giving in and simply price gouging their loyal existing ones.

1 hour ago, Thpriest said:

I keep coming back to price and value. The Sonys are about 50% more expensive. Whilst the price of the new Lumixes seems a bit high for me at present, I'm sure that within a year the have great offers or bundles on all of the new cameras. That's when i usually pick them up. So far Lumix has offered me unbeatable value. I hope that continues.

Each to their own but for me it isn't just about the camera bodies, but the prices of the lenses.

There's more affordable lenses and better value money lenses for Sony E-mount, Fuji X and Nikon Z than for L-mount. As for the camera bodies I look only to the real street prices for mint condition used bodies, and occasionally the new price if I cannot afford to wait 5 or 6 weeks for the first used ones <2000 shutter count to come around.

Sony can justify their high pricing of the flagship stuff as they are popular and in demand, whereas Panasonic S1R II etc. is not.

But if we ignore the a1 II and a9 II for a moment and look at the other Sony bodies especially used, the value for money is actually very good in particular the a7 IV at £1400.

The a7r III used in mint condition can be had for as little as £900 or 1000 euro. That's an extremely capable stills camera with very good 4K as a bonus.

The OG Sony a9 is also a good deal around £1200, with the stacked sensor, 20fps raw, and oversampled 4K.

The ergonomic improvements from the original a7 through to the a7 III and a9 are significant as is colour science improvement.

a7 III can be had for well under £1000 today.

Looking at the newer stuff Sony a7r V mint condition is £2500 and brand new £3200.

Panasonic has a direct competitor with high megapixels and modern video features, of course that's the S1r II.

But it is only £200 less new and is in the same body as a lower-end camera, whereas the a7r V has the build quality and design of a flagship camera, if you put it side by side with the original Sony a1 for example you might even say it's higher-end.

The value for money in Panasonic's range is in the lower-end stuff. S5, S5 II, S9, and the older Micro Four Thirds stuff like GH6 which can be had for ridiculously low prices now.

If you are going to drop £3500 on an S1 II be prepared to lose £1000 immediately as you drive it off the forecourt, and another £1000 in 12 months when it drops to selling for just £1500 second hand like the a7 IV.

1 hour ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

And not to belabor the R5 II, but...  the R5 II can also do 4kp120 in some sort of line skipped or pixel binned full sensor width mode.

Yep, same as the old R5 from 2020 with the pixel binned 4K/120p, and the quality is quite decent.

The Sony a1 from 2021 has this mode too, and no crop.

The Z8 also.

A used EOS R5 is now around the 2k mark if you want 4K/120p (and quite a bit else) on a camera that used to have a "fake overheating problem" which Canon "fixed" in inverted commas with panicky face-saving firmware updates.

In 2025 uncropped binned 4K/120p at $3500-$3800 is a pretty standard feature.

1 hour ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

And for video, it can do 8kp60 raw internally with 15.5ms readout, great dynamic range, and nice colors SOOC

Yeah the R5 II is lovely but the RF mount is an issue for me, I don't have any of the native lenses, they are too big anyway, I sold a lot of my EF stuff as it's also massively heavy, with noisy AF, and in terms of adapters it doesn't have the Leica M mount autofocus adapter I use nearly all the time for stills and some video on the Sony cameras, which is a big pity and there's no way to adapt E-mount lenses to Canon RF unlike with Nikon Z mount.

The lack of Sigma full frame ART lenses in RF mount is another hammer blow.

1 hour ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

Sure, the S9 could absolutely be better!  But at least Panasonic went out for a segment that really didn't include a lot of cameras and where there's demand.  Tiny full frame 6K camera with a nice sensor for $1,400 brand new?  Fantastic.  And form factor that looks a lot like a Leica M and can use M mount glass?  Also fantastic.

Yes the S9 I have a soft spot for, but Panasonic have always been quite good at value for money cameras.

That's one of the best bang for your buck which makes the £3500 even more difficult to stomach for the S1 II.

It's just a pity how the S9 was marketed and launched, with a bottle cap for a lens in front of a load of people expecting the GH7.

It's also a shame how it is selling.

The used price is now down to just £950 which indicates very low demand and low sales... It does however mean I may pick one up used again and have some fun with it.

1 hour ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

I've been really close to buying it a few times and every time, I talk myself out of it by looking at camera size comparisons to my R5 and reminding myself that the S9 isn't so much smaller (and most of what makes the R5 bigger is the EVF which, as you've pointed out, is a really nice thing to have).

Yeah it's no GM1 size wise and build quality feels very cheapo.

When you put a lens on it the size makes no sense unless you're using Leica M mount stuff, or one of Panasonic's tiny zooms.

Unfortunately their cheap 50mm F1.8 is pretty big...

They need a 40mm F2 pancake or something no larger than Nikon's.

Somebody at Panasonic needs to explain the logic to me...

Of small camera, large lenses.

It seems like there's no point having an S9 without small fast prime lenses to go with it.

It's serious fucking money isn't it? wow.