Andrew Reid

15 hours ago, Walter H said:

I would be very interested to read your experiences on this front specifically. Where it not for reading in various internet spaces about poor H.265 implimentation resulting in compression artifacts, I'd likely be swayed (and might overlook the lack of a mechanical shutter). I think everything else about the camera is stellar. 

But I'm consistently unclear if H.265 10-bit is 422 or 420. The manual says the latter but 422 is referenced online repeatedly (perhaps due to people making assumptions about 10-bit?). 

This is obviously mute if your intensions are to live in NRAW and ProRes-land. If so, I think this would be an incredible camera and a good if not the direction to go given your Lumix misgivings. It would be my next pick.

There is a 700Mbit/s mode in NRAW at 4K 24p which could be good half-way house between too much compression and the huge file sizes of the 8K NRAW and Prores modes.

This is among the smallest file size for RAW shooting on any camera, alongside C-RAW Lite 6K on the EOS R3.

I have seen this test which shows the compression in the red channel with H.265.

What's a bit frustrating is the lack of info about what bitrate was selected and so on...

I assume it was graded from LOG.

According to Slashcam the H.265 bitrates in MP4 are tiny.

https://www.slashcam.de/artikel/Test/Nikon-Z8-in-der-Praxis--Die-bessere-Z9-fuer-Video--8K-RAW-50p-Bolide-mit-Feinschliffbedarf--alles-.html#

Will certainly see some compression in MP4.

But what about the H.265 MOV mode?

Haha. Nice.

Must be confident in the autofocus performance then!

Although perhaps I am reading too much into it and it tells us more about the state of BBC News than anything camera related!!

5 hours ago, MrSMW said:

The new S1Rii has better locking dials and positioning.

I'm against the new stills/movie/S&Q dial being on the left. You can't operate it quickly under your main gripping hand with the rest of the controls. Nobody quite seems to have been able to grasp yet that Canon got it right in the DSLR days with the 70D stills/movie mode switch near the AF-On button!

5 hours ago, MrSMW said:

Compared to OG S5 = much better and that didn’t have the cooling.

Compared to the S5ii = better.

Compared to the S9 = blows it out of the water, but I did not buy the S9 for it’s build but for it’s size & weight.

Compared to the S1R = hmmm equal. The build quality of the OG S1R was/is better as is the shutter mechanism, but a bit too much whiff of old school DSLR about the S1R for me.

Compared to the S1H = a downgrade. The S1H still remains my favourite camera ever.

Aside from S9 I agree, S9 is designed to be something different and fun. I'd prefer to pick that up for certain things over the S1R II.

Better than OG S5 but that was pretty terrible, one of the least inspiring designs and EVFs ever, even for 5 years ago.

S5 II was an improvement but not by enough. It's a bit like the difference between a7 II and III.

Because Panasonic entered the full frame market so late they have not been able to go through 5 generations of iterative kaizen like Sony. The GH2 and in a different way GH5 remains for me one of the best Panasonic cameras looks and ergonomics wise but they have tossed those older designs out completely now rather than evolving from them.

S1H with the mechanical shutter and top panel is wonderful isn't it? Just a bit clunky and dated now.

5 hours ago, MrSMW said:

The A7RV is just better built, better to hold, better to use, has a better rear LCD, better AF, smaller and lighter lenses at the same apertures, twin Type A card slots, also shoots 8k though I think it’s video specs are not quite as good so as a pure video machine, the S1Rii probably beats it for video spec.

I would take the S1R II's image and video capabilities over the A7R V but 100% agree with everything else!

5 hours ago, MrSMW said:

Well as a former S1H, S1R and OG S5 owner plus currently an S9 + S5ii + A7RV + Zf user…

I don’t ‘mind’ them essentially reusing the S5ii chassis now that they have implemented the S1H style rear screen.

The S5ii body though to me is simply adequate. 

I don’t like; the shutter mechanism sound or feel. It’s not the worst, but compared with the S1H it’s pretty poor. That is only really an issue for the photographer side of me.

The rear LCD isn’t great. Anything under 2000 wotsits isn’t great so the S1Rii despite having a better mech, is still a bit  low res for me.

The rest of the body is just OK. 

It’s OK to hold, the build is generally OK, the design/visual appeal is OK but dull.

The size & weight is good. In fact, I would not object to it being slightly heavier, but not by much.

The new S1Rii has better locking dials and positioning.

It’s not a brand new body and I do not think ‘flagship’ worthy, but I think it is a reasonably decent upgrade and overall on a rating of 1-5 is now a 3.5/4.

Compared to OG S5 = much better and that didn’t have the cooling.

Compared to the S5ii = better.

Compared to the S9 = blows it out of the water, but I did not buy the S9 for it’s build but for it’s size & weight.

Compared to the S1R = hmmm equal. The build quality of the OG S1R was/is better as is the shutter mechanism, but a bit too much whiff of old school DSLR about the S1R for me.

Compared to the S1H = a downgrade. The S1H still remains my favourite camera ever.

(I would still be using it today as my principal unit except for one single factor and that is I can’t burn a LUT into Vlog like I can with my S5ii’s, so swapped it for an S9. It makes a MASSIVE difference to my workflow and I think stuff such as digital sharpness and moire).

Compared to Zf = totally different bodies so no comparison really. The Zf is more a ‘fun but pro’ camera to me but the S5ii/S1Rii is significantly better ergonomically.

Compared to the A7RV = this is where it falls apart a bit…

The A7RV is just better built, better to hold, better to use, has a better rear LCD, better AF, smaller and lighter lenses at the same apertures, twin Type A card slots, also shoots 8k though I think it’s video specs are not quite as good so as a pure video machine, the S1Rii probably beats it for video spec.

I am no Sony fanboi and would like to hate on it if I could, but for me, right now, it is the top dog.

Would I swap it for a Leica SL-3?

Yes if I had the funds.

Would I swap it for an S1Rii?

Possibly if I was not already invested.

Would I swap it for a Z8?

Maybe… I think the Z8 body is best in class, but doesn’t quite have the lenses and that AF is slightly suspect. My Zf is certainly not as good as my A7RV.

I just think they had a chance to do something really nice, and after 7 years did something very middle of the road.

Given this is a 3600 euro camera, they could have at least kept the fancy S1H top LCD which was the finest on the market at the same time as just shrinking the body down and trimming some fat.

It would have been nice to rub some of the sharp edges off, it has no graceful curves at all.

The S9 also looks very basic and unimaginative, yet with a few tweaks and a viewfinder could have looked lovely. It doesn't need to be X100 level, just better than boring and mediocre.

S5 II is not the type of body that screams to pick it up for fun.

And I really dislike the rear jog dial, it's so spongey.

If they had kept the basic S1H body concept to the tee, just added some nice curved edges and shrunk it in size without removing key features or shrinking the screens... that would have been the Pana flagship for the ages.

Instead we got pure dullness!

The question is, if they are coming out with an S1H II later this year will they also do an S5 II replica, or push out something more exciting?

12 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

I understand the cost saving/standardisation perspective but I think Panasonic are definitely taking the piss a bit now by re-using the S5ii body for all their products.

Funnily enough that massive microwave screen bezel doesn't look out of place.

Only at second glance did I see it 🙂

Very cool, thanks.

It's a thing of beauty.

Control scheme is groundbreaking. No more main menu diving.

32 minutes ago, PannySVHS said:

It has the awesome screen mechanism of the S1H and GH7.

I find it over-engineered and fiddly with the catch, and too thick.

Have you tried the a7r V? Screen mechanism is in a different league.

32 minutes ago, PannySVHS said:

S1H is a beauty to hold and to look at on the other hand. Makes it hard for me to sell it.:) Top panel is beautiful as well.

I think you'll find S5 II and S1R II a big step down from that.

17 minutes ago, ArashM said:

The Z8 was a bit of a no go for me, never quite got the AF to work consistantly and while on paper it ticks all the boxes, in use it just was a bit of a let down for me and how I use it.

Do tell us more!

It's nearly time for a spring clean where 4 or 5 cameras turn into 1!

I have decided to divest in L-mount. The Sigma Fp-L is staying but I'm moving on from Panasonic and the L-mount lenses with no plans to get more. When the Sigma BF comes out I'll certainly consider swapping the Fp-L for it but want to see if it retains Cinema DNG raw video.

Nikon Z8 used prices are now under $3000/3000 euro.

So it's a cheaper option than the Panasonic S1R II, with a much more flagship design of body and very nice chonky EVF. Of course the autofocus is in a different league and the sensor is a lot faster.

I thought about returning to a Sony a1 and selling my a7 IV along with some Fuji stuff. But the a1 prices are still as high as 12 months ago and well above what I'll find a Z8 for.

Nikon Zf mount has the nifty Leica M autofocus adapter (latest version) from Techart, and the MegaDap Sony E mount adapter which serves all my autofocus needs without requiring a $15,000 investment in Nikon Zf lenses. Thank the lord.

Whereas with the S1R II and L-mount, options are very limited for adapters.

Sigma 35mm F2 ART for Sony E-mount on a Nikon Z8 is a tempting duo.

Build quality tip top and not too big.

Ergonomically fantastic.

8K RAW video and super fast.

One of the best range of H.265 codec options and some very good crop modes.

4K/120p full frame mode.

So I think it's time to get into Z mount in a big way and commit to it.

Would you go for the Z8, or something else for $3000?

They will leave 8K 60p and faster sensor performance for an S1H Mark II presumably.

It will probably be able to match the Nikon Z8.

The question is, do we need another Z8?

So the 6K 60p is a crop with vertical binning according to Slashcam, but still very good detail:

https://www.slashcam.de/artikel/Test/Panasonic-LUMIX-S1R-II-Sensor-Bildqualitaet---Debayering--Rolling-Shutter-und-Dynamik--Rolling-Shutter---Panaso.html#4KDebayeringPanasonic

Nice long (2 hour!) review from Richard Wong.

I've been thinking about the standardisation of body designs at Panasonic.

Taking inspiration from Sony they seem to want to design a one-body fits all standardised ergonomics.

But the lack of the top panel LCD and the angular body of the S5 Mark II does nothing for me.

And I'm wondering when Panasonic will start adding a bit of flair and soul to their designs.

If they came up with the S5 Mark II body design as a way of creating a Sony a7 IV mould to then go and do a whole set of other cameras with only minor ergonomic changes, they have done a really bad job.

The S5 Mark II body is not flagship material.

Sony a7 IV is.

The Sony a1 has an almost identical design and ergonomics to the a7 IV, but still feels like a flagship.

It's been the same since the Sony a9 being based on the a7 III.

The Nikon Z8 is probably the nicest of the bunch I think? Not too small, not too big, top panel LCD, very nice viewfinder hump, feels premium.

So in general just the design... what do people think of the direction Panasonic have taken since the S5 Mark II to standardise their bodies? The G9 II of course shares the same basic layout and looks too.

Maybe they will break the mould a bit with the S1H Mark II if we ever see it? They could certainly use some imagination at this point.

He uploaded the originals which is good...

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1obqp8z2FJCVnLswPCDq4MYPdat6va-AQ?usp=sharing

S1H I thought didn't really have a moire issue in 5.9K.

So perhaps he has found a way to break it.

4 hours ago, John Matthews said:

No. He was testing other modes too. Look at the bottom of the screen where it says the mode he's testing (29 seconds in) which was full-sensor readout mode, then he talks about the crop modes.

Is the full frame 4K 60fps on the S1R II actually oversampled from 8K/60p?

The sensor is too slow for that.

So when he labels it 4K/60fps full frame, I can't help but question it.

It's either a crop or binned, it can't be a full frame oversampled mode.

15 hours ago, ArashM said:

This must be a regional thing, DHL is solid and I've had a great track record with them

In Berlin at the moment they have had a number of damaging strikes as they don't treat their workers properly.

The thing with MPB is that they should not make this the customer's problem, but intervene on their side and promptly refund if DHL loses a package.

They have basically just tossed me to the wolves and said wait 1 month, maybe you'll get something, maybe you won't.

It's fucking terrible customer service.

22 hours ago, Snowfun said:

My experience is that every time I’ve sold stuff they end up paying me more than their initial estimate. I’ve never purchased from them however. Living in a semi-remote region of Scotland without DPD etc., (real “man with a van” territory) I’m always amazed when my parcel does, indeed, reach them. I doubt I’ve had the sheer volume of transactions to have experienced one of the bad ones.

Ah Scotland! Have you any experience with https://www.ffordes.com?

They have been pretty good from a buying perspective.

4 hours ago, John Matthews said:

For video, this is the most important feature of this high MP camera: 

 

Nice idea for a test but he's only testing the APS-C modes.

On a 24 megapixel sensor we are talking rather low resolutions in 1.5x crop mode - something between 12-15 megapixel.

So he is comparing 12 megapixel with no oversampling to 44 megapixel with oversampling.

What happens when he does the same in full frame.

S1H with AA filter at 6K full pixel readout, versus S1R II at 8K - the result would be much closer.

S1R II in full frame at 60fps is pixel binning, which is the worst thing possible as far as moire on fine textures is concerned.

So it would be nice to see him extend the test beyond APS-C mode, but then that would complicate the conclusion which isn't as attractive for YouTube videos.

15 hours ago, IronFilm said:

It's definitely within the spectrum of low / mid range when it comes to professional shoots. It's a common enough camera choice for reality tv / docos / corporate videography / etc 

I see, so low end compared to ARRI.

The big difference on a forum is the discussion is led by the customer.

On YouTube the discussions are led by sales people.

That's because the medium lends itself better to glossy marketing.

It's TV.

Of course you also have a mix of content, not all of it is marketing in disguise as editorial.

But I always ask myself, what is the main purpose of the big-name reviewers and what they do...

Is the main purpose client journalism, which pays their wages, gets them access, maintaining relations with the PR people at major corporations, going on the junkets and trips, getting your hotel paid for and so on, this is text book client journalism and it allows the camera companies to orchestrate all the good vibes you see in videos like this, by the usual slick operators.

Or is it real journalism from filmmakers, like on Vimeo in the early days when we had actual pros and enthusiasts, customers of the camera companies not clients of the camera companies, putting their own independent field tests and shoots up.

We have clearly had a bit of a pivot towards corporate propaganda since then unfortunately.

And that's not to say the info in these kinds of videos isn't informative or useful in some way or another.

But the purpose of it is to sell.

I prefer to get my information from other filmmakers and people who can shoot.

Chris is an actual real-life store salesmen.

There's a layer of gloss over everything he does because he's a good salesman.

That's his job, was before, is now.

He understands the product, that's also part of a salesman's job.

But he doesn't understand filmmaking or photography and that is a huge thing missing from a review of what's supposed to be an artistic tool.

There's no Art in it.

No cinematic language.

Missing are any kind of outspoken views or provocations.

There's a craft and grift but not so much any creativity or creative looking shots at a high level (not mediocrity or just eye candy)

And it's also quite dry like reading advertorial, not very much humour or insight.

Exhibit B: "Better than Sony & Canon"

Northrup likes to employ a strategy of playing the different camera marketing teams off against one-another.

Which makes them put more effort into satisfying his need to be happy, and his need for access.

The troll headlines also have another purpose, to excite the masses in the comments section - most of whom are Sony and Canon users.

It's not a one off.

He tried it with the S5 II review as well "Better than Sony"

If Northrup genuinely thinks Panasonic are a better option than Canon or Sony now you wouldn't know it from his Sony and Canon hype pieces!

I know I am at risk of repeating myself here but I really do think all of this should be looked at by the FCC.

YouTube is supposed to be part of the open web, not a haven of client journalism under the thumb of a small cartel of suppliers and their PR people.

And the camera companies should realise that their modern marketing strategy is going to fall off a cliff pretty soon.

People are getting a bit sick of it.

People want honesty, journalism and independence, not a circus of shilling.

Yes entertainment as well.

And it is rare these days I am entertained enough to sit through their social media influencer marketing pieces.

5 hours ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

About as low end as the Ursa Cine 12K, yes.  😉

Just about all of the cameras that he mentioned are likely to have some representation at the local short film contest/festival I just wrapped up.

(Also add Komodo/Komodo-X and Ronin 4D which I can say from personal experience are also represented)

Different planet these fucking filmmakers 😉

FX9 is low end?

1 hour ago, MrSMW said:

Possibly the UK division is better than the EU brigade.

Brits living in the UK like to complain about all kinds of things, but as a Brit living in France, I can state for the record that the UK is MILES (miles not km) ahead of certain parts of the EU for customer service.

I can vouch for that!

15 hours ago, Fairkid said:

It was for being a 'good customer' might give you an indicator of how much of a tart I am when it comes to camera gear!

I didn't get a box of choc after spending £20k with them over the years.

I should ask for one.

Some good shops in the UK but it is a pity West Yorkshire Camera closed down recently. Loved them.

1 hour ago, BTM_Pix said:

I've spotted an opportunity for you to be able to drop stuff off and stay within their DHL only policy ..

LOL!!

An ingenious solution isn't it?

The thing with narcissists is they will voluntarily add themselves to any hitlist like Jordan did, it's all about them, it reveals how they see themselves as pretend-artists in an industry that prefers to reward the grifter over the creative at every opportunity.

I think he has an insecurity complex because there's no visual talent to justify him being anything but cosplay.... no artistic substance, stubbornness, or interest behind the eyes... these people lack the self-sabotage ability to speak out like an artist would about various topics and issues.

That's because any sane person would put their career first, well a career psychopath would anyway.

It takes a certain amount of eccentricity and weirdness to buck the trend doesn't it?

What's good about the current forum here... all this talk we do it because we consider it relevant and worth talking about or debating... We are not thinking about our careers and attention economy. Whereas the masses don't push back, they don't debate, they're mainly just are fed things for popular consumption, and there's a lack of appreciation that it's the art of cinema and photography that's the whole point of it all... no point in such powerful cameras and tools existing for any other reason, who the fuck needs 8K to shoot advertorial content for the web?

And maybe the insecurity of people like Chris and Jordan or the Northrups comes from the fact that it isn't important what some fucking ex-camera store salesman thinks... not important enough to justify their celebrity status anyway.

Eventually they will get tired of pretending to themselves.

They're not important enough to justify earning more than a teacher, nurse or psychologist.

Not important enough to make them a gatekeeper of public opinion and online content.

Certainly not important in the grand scheme of things where art is remembered, cinema is remembered, camera reviews filled with mediocre shots of frozen landscapes, very quickly forgotten.

I just think we can do better and here on this forum we sometimes prove it.

We are not uncritical.

We are not being spoon fed.

We don't particularly look up to prominent and famous influencers on Tik Trump, or hang off every word Fro Knows Shit All says, and we are capable of judging the ex-stock photography models. No talent behind the lens... you can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

This is why I wish the camera companies would wake the fuck up, it is not selling cameras.

If anything it is an unappetizing circus of shit.

Off-putting.

These fucking marketeers have been to some of the most beautiful and cinematic places in the world only to come back with nothing but mediocrity.

I think it's really bad for sales, really uninspiring marketing.

It has come along as a new thing, had some success and now it's time to move on.

At the moment it seems to be all the camera companies want. The rise of tame client journalism, and creative mediocrity.

They look down on us. They think mediocrity as a gold standard is what makes the normal guy on the street think he can be an artist too!

I just think we need a much tougher push back against the camera companies and their marketing idiots.

I am going to start myself. A message will go off to key Panasonic contacts soon, and point out that they're doing it all wrong.

I don't care if I am ever invited or given access again, I think the push back has to start with me.

It's not going to be Northrup doing it is it?

They have completely undermined, rejected and neglected what really sells cameras... art, artists, people who can actually shoot, like you guys.