New L-Mount Lumix (cinema?) Camera

[John Matthews]

4 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

I see so much negativity towards Lumix right now, but the S5ii X is my favorite camera I've ever used despite my criticisms of it, I was very impressed with the S1Rii when I used it for a day, and I think the S9 is a very compelling option especially if Lumix creates smaller lenses like they've said. 

I've even seen more YouTubers switching to Lumix cameras; while that isn't important to me, it's a sign that they are making some headway.

I'm not saying people's criticisms aren't valid. If they aren't the right tool for you then they aren't the right tool, but people are writing off cameras based on specs instead of actually using them. 

Maybe these S1 successors will suck. It's very possible. But as of now, no one who has actually used them has said anything, nor have they made their way into the paying public's hands who can give an unbiased review. 

You're very right. Read what people say and Lumix anything is DOA. Nevertheless, people will buy them, actually use them and give their opinions. Also, all the cameras are so good and I'm struggling to find meaningful things that would really improve something. Sure, internal ND's would be great, but I'm sure there are all kinds of technical issues with that. Now, we've got HQ magnetic ones that aren't that bad at all. Rolling shutter performance is the biggest hoax for the vast majority of people buying the cameras. All of the nth degree stuff- just go out and shoot what you have. Better yet, downgrade and make it a challenge.

[MrSMW]

4 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

I see so much negativity towards Lumix right now, but the S5ii X is my favorite camera I've ever used despite my criticisms of it, I was very impressed with the S1Rii when I used it for a day, and I think the S9 is a very compelling option especially if Lumix creates smaller lenses like they've said. 

Agree. Mostly... It's that they 'appear' to be going backwards creatively as in terms of features compared with others (or others are catching up) and especially in design.

I have never really cared for the Lumix f1.8 primes but have always respected them...and now own and use 3 of them!

I'm one of those who is not bothered whether they make anything smaller or not because on an S9, realistically, unless they make them slower, how much smaller could they be and they are hardly big or heavy in the first place.

Mostly the el cheapo 50mm f1.8 for 90% of the time.

[Andrew Reid]

2 hours ago, John Matthews said:

You're very right. Read what people say and Lumix anything is DOA. Nevertheless, people will buy them, actually use them and give their opinions. Also, all the cameras are so good and I'm struggling to find meaningful things that would really improve something. Sure, internal ND's would be great, but I'm sure there are all kinds of technical issues with that. Now, we've got HQ magnetic ones that aren't that bad at all. Rolling shutter performance is the biggest hoax for the vast majority of people buying the cameras. All of the nth degree stuff- just go out and shoot what you have. Better yet, downgrade and make it a challenge.

Maybe try and understand the negativity, after all we're just doing as you just described... buying and using the cameras and giving our opinion.

I have bought every major Panasonic release for 15 years.

I stopped at the S1R II and gave my opinion.

There's no creative or practical and financial reason to buy another L-mount camera from Panasonic.

My next will be the Sigma BF and I'll probably get the Sony a1 again at some point, as I regret selling it.

There's no room in the bag for a £2500 Sony a7 replica with L-mount.

Had Panasonic used the same strategy in the M43 days, they'd have been bringing out 2x crop DSLRs with moire.

[John Matthews]

17 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Had Panasonic used the same strategy in the M43 days, they'd have been bringing out 2x crop DSLRs with moire.

The GH2 and the hacking community seemingly launched the GH3 before Panasonic knew which end was up. Times have definitely changed. There's no reason to hack anything on current cameras as they're all great. The urgency has become story, composition, lighting and the edit.

[newfoundmass]

2 hours ago, John Matthews said:

You're very right. Read what people say and Lumix anything is DOA. Nevertheless, people will buy them, actually use them and give their opinions. Also, all the cameras are so good and I'm struggling to find meaningful things that would really improve something. Sure, internal ND's would be great, but I'm sure there are all kinds of technical issues with that. Now, we've got HQ magnetic ones that aren't that bad at all. Rolling shutter performance is the biggest hoax for the vast majority of people buying the cameras. All of the nth degree stuff- just go out and shoot what you have. Better yet, downgrade and make it a challenge.

Agreed. I don't know the overall health of the Lumix line. Maybe it's even as bad as people are saying. There have been some big whiffs for sure, like the LX100, the G100, and the G95, but I feel like a big part of people's criticism is that Lumix is "late to the party" on certain things and when they finally do release a camera that matches the competition, it's "too late" even though they enter a market at an extremely competitive price. I get that it is an adjustment, given that Lumix for so long lead the way when it came to progressing what mirrorless cameras are capable of, so it can be a disappointment in that regard, but I think overall we've hit a wall when it comes to advances. No one is really progressing much, outside of higher resolution. But Lumix is adding little quality of life improvements that the larger companies still haven't added, but they don't really get credit for them.

I don't think it's unfair to say that 7 years is a long time to release a successor, but at the same time, would people be giving them the same grief if they were releasing a new model every two years for what is essentially a big firmware update like Sony does? Should they do that instead of supporting their cameras for years with new features via free firmware updates like they have? Would they have been better off if they flooded the market with so many different models? There needs to be some middle ground, and it'd be nice if Lumix found it.

 

2 hours ago, MrSMW said:

Agree. Mostly... It's that they 'appear' to be going backwards creatively as in terms of features compared with others (or others are catching up) and especially in design.

I agree with this, but also think it was inevitable. I don't know that they are regressing backwards creatively, as much as they hit the same wall most everyone else has. I do think the design criticism is the most valid, but I also think that too was inevitable. It makes sense that they'd try to unify the camera body designs like Sony has, as I'm sure it's much more profitable for them, especially as they try to enter the market at a more competitive price point. I've never had a problem with the S5ii X's body; I don't necessarily love it it, but I'm pretty indifferent. Where it matters most to me I find it to be pretty good; the buttons are where I'd naturally want them, and I have quick access to pretty much every setting I'd want to have quick access to. It really boils down to personal preference, so if you don't like it then I can see why it'd bother you that they are using it for most of their cameras now. That was a big reason why I didn't like Sony cameras, so I understand it.

 

[Andrew Reid]

43 minutes ago, John Matthews said:

The GH2 and the hacking community seemingly launched the GH3 before Panasonic knew which end was up. Times have definitely changed. There's no reason to hack anything on current cameras as they're all great. The urgency has become story, composition, lighting and the edit.

You have completely misinterpreted what I said and brought up hacks for some reason

[Andrew Reid]

So the rumoured pricing:

S1 II: 3500 euros. Similar or same sensor as Z6 III (partially stacked) and similar spec?

S1 IIe: 2800 euros for the OLD sensor, same spec as S5 II but updated processor

2800 euros for a 2017 sensor that debuted in the a7 III.

The kit lens is 1000 euros. 24-60 F2.8

Panasonic have taken leave of their senses.

[Andrew Reid]

31 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

I don't know that they are regressing backwards creatively, as much as they hit the same wall most everyone else has.

There's no wall to good design, or making a body that feels premium and looks like a flagship, Sony for example are not the most creative of the camera companies (that would be Fuji and Sigma), but they managed to produce high-end cameras that are actually high-end with new ergonomics, the a7r V for example and now a1 II. The first a1 is smaller and higher quality than the entry level S5 II body Panasonic thinks is worthy of £3500 flagships.

Sony have not just set out to copy Canon, whereas the worrying thing about all of this is that Panasonic seems perfectly happy to be a Temu Sony now.

Their product strategy is batshit and they are refusing to put proper cutting edge sensors in the flagships.

Then again they are not charging $6000 so bonus points for that.

31 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

I do think the design criticism is the most valid, but I also think that too was inevitable. It makes sense that they'd try to unify the camera body designs like Sony has, as I'm sure it's much more profitable for them

I have no problem with unifying the camera body design around a flagship like Sony did starting with the a7 III adopting the same body as the a9, or at least very similar.

Panasonic have done it the wrong way round, they are putting their flagship expensive stuff in a mid-range / entry level body design.

31 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

I've never had a problem with the S5ii X's body; I don't necessarily love it it, but I'm pretty indifferent.

I can't tolerate feeling indifferent towards a camera I've just spent 3500 on, I don't know why I should think "meh" every time I pick it up, versus something like a Z8 or a1.

31 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

Where it matters most to me I find it to be pretty good; the buttons are where I'd naturally want them, and I have quick access to pretty much every setting I'd want to have quick access to. It really boils down to personal preference, so if you don't like it then I can see why it'd bother you that they are using it for most of their cameras now. That was a big reason why I didn't like Sony cameras, so I understand it.

Talking about personal preferences, it's not just me - I'd say most people think it's wrong to be releasing the s1r II and s1 II in a mid-range body design that wasn't even very charming at £1300 second hand, let alone £3500.

Just a quick TLDR then...

- No cutting edge sensors in the flagship cameras

- Mid-range at best body designs with no flare or interesting ergonomic features

- Terrible marketing and pricing

- Autofocus still lagging behind (probably)

- Still no internal ND

- Not enough compelling unique aspects to make people switch

- Marginalised lens mount

[Andrew Reid]

What if Sony followed The Great Panasonic Strategy handbook?

https://www.eoshd.com/opinion/s1-ii-leaks-what-if-sony-followed-the-panasonic-strategy/

[eatstoomuchjam]

At $3,800, I can't really figure out who is the target market.

If I have $3,800 in my pocket and want a hybrid camera, I'm not buying the S1 II.  If in the Panasonic ecosystem, it'd be the S1R II.  And if not, the R5 II or the Z8.

If I don't want a hybrid camera, now they're competing against a Komodo (plus accessories).  Komodo isn't full frame, but it's closer to APS-H than APS-C and has global shutter and records in a raw format that I can import to my editor without converting to cDNG.

So... what would be the selling point for a camera that will be apparently in an S5-like body, but cost just about the same as a different higher-resolution camera also in an S5-like body?  I guess it'll have less rolling shutter if it's the Z6 III sensor.  Is "come get a little less rolling shutter" a big selling point in 2025?

I get the S9 - cheap full frame with great image quality.  I get the S1R II - high resolution full frame with 8k video to compete with the other major players.

I could even somewhat get the S1 IIe - if they add "professional" I/O ports like SDI and dedicated timecode, then it's an S5 II that fits better into mid-range shoots.

But the S1 II, if described as above?  I'm boggled.

[Thpriest]

Specs etc only tell us so much. Let’s see them at work. The thing I don’t really understand is whether they’ll have FF 4k 50p. If they don’t that would be a fatal mistake.

[Andrew Reid]

8 hours ago, John Matthews said:

The GH2 and the hacking community seemingly launched the GH3 before Panasonic knew which end was up. Times have definitely changed. There's no reason to hack anything on current cameras as they're all great. The urgency has become story, composition, lighting and the edit.

Is this your hot take. LOL.

The GH2 hacking community has nought to do with this topic and the latest cameras, and as far as I know Mr Kiselev the Bolshevik Leninist did not launch the GH3.

I wish you'd go off and do some editing

 

[Andrew Reid]

6 hours ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

At $3,800, I can't really figure out who is the target market.

$5000 if you want the kit lens don't forget 🙂

6 hours ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

If I have $3,800 in my pocket and want a hybrid camera, I'm not buying the S1 II.  If in the Panasonic ecosystem, it'd be the S1R II.  And if not, the R5 II or the Z8.

$3800 and they are not even including ARRI-LOG, it's a separate purchase AFAIK

6 hours ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

So... what would be the selling point for a camera that will be apparently in an S5-like body, but cost just about the same as a different higher-resolution camera also in an S5-like body?  I guess it'll have less rolling shutter if it's the Z6 III sensor.  Is "come get a little less rolling shutter" a big selling point in 2025?

One of the rumours said 4K/120p without a crop, but pixel binned.

That would be a neat feature but not a deal-saver.

The S5 II body is just such a pudding.

You put one next to an a7r V and it feels like a child's camera.

6 hours ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

I get the S9 - cheap full frame with great image quality.

I get the S9 too but they still missed a trick there by not making it better.

I.e. The one with the EVF and mechanical shutter and new sensor, like everyone else has.

6 hours ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

I get the S1R II - high resolution full frame with 8k video to compete with the other major players.

I could even somewhat get the S1 IIe - if they add "professional" I/O ports like SDI and dedicated timecode, then it's an S5 II that fits better into mid-range shoots.

But the S1 II, if described as above?  I'm boggled.

The cherry on top of all this failing I bet will be an S1H that costs 5 grand and has no EVF.

They'll reposition it as an FX3 competitor, in a new boxy form factor with all the stills features cripple-hammered.

So as far as a hybrid camera goes the S1 II might be a better deal.

Even though it is really just an S5 III and not a flagship in any way.

[Andrew Reid]

It's serious fucking money isn't it? wow.

[ArashM]

8 hours ago, Thpriest said:

Specs etc only tell us so much. Let’s see them at work. The thing I don’t really understand is whether they’ll have FF 4k 50p. If they don’t that would be a fatal mistake.

The single most anything thing with the S5iiX is the 60p Crop, if the new S1ii fixes that, then sign me up for 2 bodies!

(32 bit float will be the cherry on top)

 

[eatstoomuchjam]

3 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

One of the rumours said 4K/120p without a crop, but pixel binned.

That would be a neat feature but not a deal-saver.

And not to belabor the R5 II, but...  the R5 II can also do 4kp120 in some sort of line skipped or pixel binned full sensor width mode.  And for video, it can do 8kp60 raw internally with 15.5ms readout, great dynamic range, and nice colors SOOC.  It's not a perfect camera and specs aren't everything, but outside of people who are already invested in L mount, it's still hard to know which users are going to run out and buy the S1 II, just based on what specs I've seen so far.

3 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

I get the S9 too but they still missed a trick there by not making it better.

I.e. The one with the EVF and mechanical shutter and new sensor, like everyone else has.

Sure, the S9 could absolutely be better!  But at least Panasonic went out for a segment that really didn't include a lot of cameras and where there's demand.  Tiny full frame 6K camera with a nice sensor for $1,400 brand new?  Fantastic.  And form factor that looks a lot like a Leica M and can use M mount glass?  Also fantastic.

I've been really close to buying it a few times and every time, I talk myself out of it by looking at camera size comparisons to my R5 and reminding myself that the S9 isn't so much smaller (and most of what makes the R5 bigger is the EVF which, as you've pointed out, is a really nice thing to have).

3 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

The cherry on top of all this failing I bet will be an S1H that costs 5 grand and has no EVF.

They'll reposition it as an FX3 competitor, in a new boxy form factor with all the stills features cripple-hammered.

That'd be even weirder - a brand new $5,000 camera to "compete" with a $3,900 camera that's already 4 years old.  Meanwhile, there's a Pyxis 12K out there for about the same price and also available with L mount - which shoots super high quality 8K footage or 4K footage with no crop and without binning.  Or a C80 available for only $500 more shooting 6K with triple native ISO, fantastic DR, professional I/O, and internal ND's.  That'd be another "who's this camera for?" release.

[Andrew Reid]

1 hour ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

And not to belabor the R5 II, but...  the R5 II can also do 4kp120 in some sort of line skipped or pixel binned full sensor width mode.

Yep, same as the old R5 from 2020 with the pixel binned 4K/120p, and the quality is quite decent.

The Sony a1 from 2021 has this mode too, and no crop.

The Z8 also.

A used EOS R5 is now around the 2k mark if you want 4K/120p (and quite a bit else) on a camera that used to have a "fake overheating problem" which Canon "fixed" in inverted commas with panicky face-saving firmware updates.

In 2025 uncropped binned 4K/120p at $3500-$3800 is a pretty standard feature.

1 hour ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

And for video, it can do 8kp60 raw internally with 15.5ms readout, great dynamic range, and nice colors SOOC

Yeah the R5 II is lovely but the RF mount is an issue for me, I don't have any of the native lenses, they are too big anyway, I sold a lot of my EF stuff as it's also massively heavy, with noisy AF, and in terms of adapters it doesn't have the Leica M mount autofocus adapter I use nearly all the time for stills and some video on the Sony cameras, which is a big pity and there's no way to adapt E-mount lenses to Canon RF unlike with Nikon Z mount.

The lack of Sigma full frame ART lenses in RF mount is another hammer blow.

1 hour ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

Sure, the S9 could absolutely be better!  But at least Panasonic went out for a segment that really didn't include a lot of cameras and where there's demand.  Tiny full frame 6K camera with a nice sensor for $1,400 brand new?  Fantastic.  And form factor that looks a lot like a Leica M and can use M mount glass?  Also fantastic.

Yes the S9 I have a soft spot for, but Panasonic have always been quite good at value for money cameras.

That's one of the best bang for your buck which makes the £3500 even more difficult to stomach for the S1 II.

It's just a pity how the S9 was marketed and launched, with a bottle cap for a lens in front of a load of people expecting the GH7.

It's also a shame how it is selling.

The used price is now down to just £950 which indicates very low demand and low sales... It does however mean I may pick one up used again and have some fun with it.

1 hour ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

I've been really close to buying it a few times and every time, I talk myself out of it by looking at camera size comparisons to my R5 and reminding myself that the S9 isn't so much smaller (and most of what makes the R5 bigger is the EVF which, as you've pointed out, is a really nice thing to have).

Yeah it's no GM1 size wise and build quality feels very cheapo.

When you put a lens on it the size makes no sense unless you're using Leica M mount stuff, or one of Panasonic's tiny zooms.

Unfortunately their cheap 50mm F1.8 is pretty big...

They need a 40mm F2 pancake or something no larger than Nikon's.

Somebody at Panasonic needs to explain the logic to me...

Of small camera, large lenses.

It seems like there's no point having an S9 without small fast prime lenses to go with it.

[eatstoomuchjam]

55 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Yeah the R5 II is lovely but the RF mount is an issue for me, I don't have any of the native lenses, they are too big anyway, I sold a lot of my EF stuff as it's also massively heavy, with noisy AF, and in terms of adapters it doesn't have the Leica M mount autofocus adapter I use nearly all the time for stills and some video on the Sony cameras, which is a big pity and there's no way to adapt E-mount lenses to Canon RF unlike with Nikon Z mount.

The lack of Sigma full frame ART lenses in RF mount is another hammer blow.

All fair points.  And the Z8 also supports 8kp60, I think, and probably with similar DR/RS/etc to the R5 or R5 II.  My default is to think in terms of RF mount because I have some cameras with it.

There are some small native autofocus lenses, FWIW, but everybody ignores them... and not without reason.  They're about as interesting as a loaf of bread.  I don't hate the 35/1.8 or the 50/1.8, though.

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

It's just a pity how the S9 was marketed and launched, with a bottle cap for a lens in front of a load of people expecting the GH7.

It's also a shame how it is selling.

The used price is now down to just £950 which indicates very low demand and low sales... It does however mean I may pick one up used again and have some fun with it.

The used prices are what's tempted me on multiple occasions.

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

When you put a lens on it the size makes no sense unless you're using Leica M mount stuff, or one of Panasonic's tiny zooms.

Yes, and using it with my M mount lenses is the specific thing that I find tempting.  The body size and shape is very Leica-like and I don't have much desire to spend $6,000 on a Leica body which has specs identical to a Lumix that is half the price which, in turn, has specs identical to a camera I already own (or could buy for $1,800 on the used market).  😅

 

[MrSMW]

2 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

The used price is now down to just £950 which indicates very low demand and low sales... It does however mean I may pick one up used again and have some fun with it.

Once I got myself past the lack of pro features including; the build, the lack of any proper weather sealing, the single card slot (couldn't care less personally about the lack of an EVF as I never use one), as a super-light and compact full frame 6k 30p Open Gate camera, it made great sense.

Especially on my super-lightweight freestanding monopod. If only I had not left that at a venue 700km away last weekend...

I can't remember the exact weight but it's under 1.5kg total, - that is: body, half cage, lens, Rode Micro, super stable freestanding monopod. 

I can use it statically within seconds, walk away from it quite confidently (unless in a crowd) and use it in gimbal mode at a turn of a pre-programmed dial.

For fast paced run & gun work, it's superb and has multiple frame markers for my 'films' and for my socials.

The 'pro' features aside, I can't really fault it.

And if they are now under 1k, like so much Lumix stuff, I think that is where and when they make most sense.

Used S1H's are now ridiculously cheap and I WOULD still shoot with that as my main if they'd just update the firmware to allow me to burn in a LUT.

[ac6000cw]

4 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Yes the S9 I have a soft spot for, but Panasonic have always been quite good at value for money cameras.

That's one of the best bang for your buck which makes the £3500 even more difficult to stomach for the S1 II.

It's just a pity how the S9 was marketed and launched, with a bottle cap for a lens in front of a load of people expecting the GH7.

It's also a shame how it is selling.

The used price is now down to just £950 which indicates very low demand and low sales... It does however mean I may pick one up used again and have some fun with it.

Yeah it's no GM1 size wise and build quality feels very cheapo.

When you put a lens on it the size makes no sense unless you're using Leica M mount stuff, or one of Panasonic's tiny zooms.

Unfortunately their cheap 50mm F1.8 is pretty big...

They need a 40mm F2 pancake or something no larger than Nikon's.

Somebody at Panasonic needs to explain the logic to me...

Of small camera, large lenses.

It seems like there's no point having an S9 without small fast prime lenses to go with it.

In the UK the new S9 body price dropped to £999 at the end of March, and used prices are heading towards £800 (MPB have a couple at £829 at the moment). 

Just after the recent price drop, I found a red 'used like new' S9 + 18-40mm kit from Amazon for about £1100 and took the plunge (I fancied a non-black camera body for a change).

I quite like it overall - feels nice and solid in the hand, and the lack of a grip isn't as much of a problem as I thought it might be. 

I agree it urgently needs more small lenses - the 18-40 zoom is OK as far as it goes, but everything else Panasonic offers is large and/or expensive in comparison with the body. As a travel zoom the 28-200 makes sense, but new it costs almost as much as the body and used prices are almost as high as there's not many around. Weirdly Panasonic don't offer that as a kit with the S9 - surely it's an obvious kit for the full-frame 'travel cam' market?