24p is outdated

[ghostwind]

Do you know what else is outdated? Manual focus. It's so slow, man, it drives me nuts! This is 2023, not 1923! My iPhone can focus faster than any ALEXA, so what's up with that? Autofocus is true cinema and anyone telling you otherwise is just trying to keep their job as a focus puller or living in the past. Engineers are with me, let's go!

 

[kye]

20 minutes ago, ghostwind said:

This is 2023, not 1923

Are you sure?  I'm going to have to think about that for a couple of weeks and I'll get back to you then.

[zlfan]

For the last ten years, I watch TV no more than 10 hours per year. The so called 30p for news thing just fades away from my viewing experience. I watch streaming services or social network platforms 99% of my viewing time. 

When I watch recent documentaries, I never have feelings that these are larger than life, although I bet most of these documentaries, if not all, are shot with 24p. I doubt any DP is willing to choose 30p or 29.97p for his/her documentaries, when 24p is at hands, easily accessible. 

If a documentary DP gives me the feeling that his work is larger than life, I think this is a failure, instead of a success. I watch documentaries to learn real stories, in depth news analysis and reports, not some drama. The former is journalism, the latter is creative writing, very very different. 

I seriously doubt 24p gives a larger than life feeling, at least, I don't see such a thing in documentaries. 

[Emanuel]

4 hours ago, zlfan said:

When I watch recent documentaries, I never have feelings that these are larger than life, although I bet most of these documentaries, if not all, are shot with 24p. I doubt any DP is willing to choose 30p or 29.97p for his/her documentaries, when 24p is at hands, easily accessible. 

If a documentary DP gives me the feeling that his work is larger than life, I think this is a failure, instead of a success. I watch documentaries to learn real stories, in depth news analysis and reports, not some drama. The former is journalism, the latter is creative writing, very very different. 

I seriously doubt 24p gives a larger than life feeling, at least, I don't see such a thing in documentaries. 

(When you watch documentaries... Right. I get your point but)

are you sure of the remainder part? ; )

I was there the first time I watched this piece, a year later, same screening room, with the filmmaker himself, talking to him (in English : D) through a physical human translator : P... perhaps *cough cough* the greatest name of the documentary cinema since Dziga Vertov:

https://www.bfi.org.uk/sight-and-sound/features/artavazd-pelechian-nature-seasons-poetic-montage

https://www.artforum.com/columns/artavazd-peleshian-193439/

https://www.sensesofcinema.com/2012/great-directors/artavazd-pelechian/

https://artreview.com/artavazd-pelechian-visionary-cinema-nature-seasons/

 

About his work and contribution, experts are used to produce content of more than 1-hour only to talk about his bigger than life "visions" of real ; )

 

[kye]

4 hours ago, zlfan said:

For the last ten years, I watch TV no more than 10 hours per year. The so called 30p for news thing just fades away from my viewing experience. I watch streaming services or social network platforms 99% of my viewing time. 

When I watch recent documentaries, I never have feelings that these are larger than life, although I bet most of these documentaries, if not all, are shot with 24p. I doubt any DP is willing to choose 30p or 29.97p for his/her documentaries, when 24p is at hands, easily accessible. 

If a documentary DP gives me the feeling that his work is larger than life, I think this is a failure, instead of a success. I watch documentaries to learn real stories, in depth news analysis and reports, not some drama. The former is journalism, the latter is creative writing, very very different. 

I seriously doubt 24p gives a larger than life feeling, at least, I don't see such a thing in documentaries. 

It's a subtle thing - shooting 24p won't make something instantly cinematic or larger than life.  The 'recipe' for making something look cinematic or larger than life (or any of the other dozens of ways to describe it) is that you need to do everything in a way to emphasise that experience.

Everything from the writing to the acting to the lighting to the framing to the production design to the editing to the colour grading to the sound design to the mastering to the way that the finished product is viewed.  They all matter, otherwise the studios would simply not pay for them.

The cinematic look is a feeling you create inside the viewer by making 1000 small decisions about every aspect of the whole process.

[Emanuel]

Indeed, it's a 'proof is in the pudding' thing... ;- )

[Jedi Master]

16 hours ago, kye said:

You can think what you like about rationality and realism, but it's not how the vast majority of humans work

Indeed. That’s why the political situation in this country is in the state it’s in now.

[Jedi Master]

13 hours ago, ghostwind said:

Do you know what else is outdated? Manual focus. It's so slow, man, it drives me nuts! This is 2023, not 1923! My iPhone can focus faster than any ALEXA, so what's up with that? Autofocus is true cinema and anyone telling you otherwise is just trying to keep their job as a focus puller or living in the past. Engineers are with me, let's go!

 

Nice one!

Autofocus capabilities are increasing with every new generation of cameras. It’s getting faster and more accurate, and camera manufacturers are using AI to detect faces and eyes and to track motion. It’s come a long way since the earliest efforts back in the 1980s. What will it be like in a decade or two? Who knows, but it will be faster and more capable than what we have now, that’s for sure. Will Hollywood use it then? Probably not, but it is, and will increasingly be, helpful for people who don’t have a full crew of operators, 1st ACs, and 2nd ACs—in other words, about 90% of the users of video cameras.

[zlfan]

8 hours ago, kye said:

It's a subtle thing - shooting 24p won't make something instantly cinematic or larger than life.  The 'recipe' for making something look cinematic or larger than life (or any of the other dozens of ways to describe it) is that you need to do everything in a way to emphasise that experience.

Everything from the writing to the acting to the lighting to the framing to the production design to the editing to the colour grading to the sound design to the mastering to the way that the finished product is viewed.  They all matter, otherwise the studios would simply not pay for them.

The cinematic look is a feeling you create inside the viewer by making 1000 small decisions about every aspect of the whole process.

I agree with you on your points. Cinematic is about everything in the workflow. 

24p is not bad, I use ML raw so 24p all the time for the last ten years due to the fact that 24p presets generate best results in ml raw. 

Let's deduct a little bit more here. The recent 24p documentaries actually pose a dilemma for 24p. If 24p is larger than life, even subtly, then recent 24p documentaries dps are cheating viewers, because documentaries are supposed to be strictly journalism oriented. If 24p is not larger than life, 24p documentaries are real stories, which follow the journalism principles, but 24p is larger than life cannot hold. 

[zlfan]

as long as cooke and arri and primo prime lenses and french zooms are mf, high end cinema is still mf based. especially the recent hype of going film, arri sr2 does not have ibis af etc.

[zlfan]

9 hours ago, Emanuel said:

(When you watch documentaries... Right. I get your point but)

are you sure of the remainder part? ; )

I was there the first time I watched this piece, a year later, same screening room, with the filmmaker himself, talking to him (in English : D) through a physical human translator : P... perhaps *cough cough* the greatest name of the documentary cinema since Dziga Vertov:

https://www.bfi.org.uk/sight-and-sound/features/artavazd-pelechian-nature-seasons-poetic-montage

https://www.artforum.com/columns/artavazd-peleshian-193439/

https://www.sensesofcinema.com/2012/great-directors/artavazd-pelechian/

https://artreview.com/artavazd-pelechian-visionary-cinema-nature-seasons/

 

About his work and contribution, experts are used to produce content of more than 1-hour only to talk about his bigger than life "visions" of real ; )

 

this goes behind strict journalism. there is some category called true story trying to blend journalism and creative writing, but it is not widely accepted. 

[zlfan]

this goes "beyond" strict journalism. sorry for the typo.

[Emanuel]

10 minutes ago, zlfan said:

(...)

Let's deduct a little bit more here. The recent 24p documentaries actually pose a dilemma for 24p. If 24p is larger than life, even subtly, then recent 24p documentaries dps are cheating viewers, because documentaries are supposed to be strictly journalism oriented. If 24p is not larger than life, 24p documentaries are real stories, which follow the journalism principles, but 24p is larger than life cannot hold. 

Just now, zlfan said:

this goes behind strict journalism. there is some category called true story trying to blend journalism and creative writing, but it is not widely accepted. 

1 minute ago, zlfan said:

this goes "beyond" strict journalism. sorry for the typo.

Widely accepted?! Oh God, where are you coming from?

Are docs supposed to be "strictly journalism"??!

I love these forums but I can hate them with the same intensity too for that perversion of democracy when we can see posters to write about something like they are an authority on some field when they have no clue about it, as far as they can show from their entries...

I'm sorry but it is what it is : )

And if no one says anything, at a certain point becomes old school or science made when not mainstream! LOL ;- )

 

Nothing personal though, you look like a nice guy, just misinformed, that's it :- )

[Emanuel]

Communication is a bitch.

The average of visual literacy of the audiences wordwide is usually lower than it should.

So, mainstream standards have only to follow, unfortunately.

[zlfan]

anyone is willing to explain why eu uses 25p, states for 24p? why 23p is not chosen, not cinematic?not larger than life? 23p is further away from 60p than 24p, so it is more larger than life?

[zlfan]

15 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

Widely accepted?! Oh God, where are you coming from?

Are docs supposed to be "strictly journalism"??!

I love these forums but I can hate them with the same intensity too for that perversion of democracy when we can see posters to write about something like they are an authority on some field when they have no clue about it, as far as they can show from their entries...

I'm sorry but it is what it is : )

And if no one says anything, at a certain point becomes old school or science made when not mainstream! LOL ;- )

 

Nothing personal though, you look like a nice guy, just misinformed, that's it :- )

if docs are not for journalism principles, then why name it as doc, maybe larger than life drama is a better name. 

so that viewers will not take it for granted that these are true stories? 

[PannySVHS]

I suggest to stop replying in this toxic thread so it can fuck off into oblivion. All good reasons not to engage with troll behaviour. To put it with the words of Mattias Burling: "Fly off" to the shores of other forums to be a pain in the tush there. We have had enough of this. Yikes. Good thing that Roger Deakins does not witness this nasty conduct and brutal rudeness and hostility. Actually Mattias didnt exactely say "fly" off.

[Jedi Master]

8 minutes ago, PannySVHS said:

I suggest to stop replying in this toxic thread so it can fuck off into oblivion.

If you don't like the content of this thread, no one is forcing you to read it. Just avoid opening it and let the rest of us likewise make up our own minds.

I've been participating in Internet discussions since the earliest days of Usenet back in 1980 and one thing I detest more than anything else is when someone tries to shut down a discussion because they personally don't like where a thread is going, or its contents. As I said in the paragraph above, if you don't like this thread, don't read it.

[zlfan]

40 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

Communication is a bitch.

The average of visual literacy of the audiences wordwide is usually lower than it should.

So, mainstream standards have only to follow, unfortunately.

Interesting discussion, actually. 

I guess your point is more about elitism vs populism.

One hundred years ago, 16p and 24p were determined by Hollywood powerful producers and dps single handed. The world followed. At the time, the technology is exclusive. Elitism in cinematography is true. 

Now, the technological barrier is almost none. It is just internet, democratize information. Nowadays, you can have a crop mood ml raw cam lower than $500, and have true lossless 14 bit raw, on par with arriraw. 

In the still photography world, such trend already happens. Anyone with an iphone or u43 cam, can snap at the right moment in the right place, some decisive moments. Some of these photos are no less than a pro's master piece, in all of the ways. 

In 10 to 20 years, such trend will come to the cinema world. Plus the AI, most of the time, you even don't need a pretty model anymore. Exciting time, but many old rules may not hold anymore, including the 24p thing. 

 

 

[zlfan]

About the populism and elitism, only because of the internet, Trump was elected the US president 2016-2020. This never happened before in US history. So with the new technologies, populism may win. Not in every field, but in the fields that democratize the knowledge and skills. (un)fortunately, photography and cinematography are such fields. Financial engineering is still elitism based, due to the limited access of the information and the capital. I'd like to see the new world when finance is democratized. LOL.