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Why did Canon remove so many EOS R features on the more expensive EOS R6?


Andrew Reid
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Perhaps Canon is offering too many models for the now reduced market?

It must be a challenge to differentiate a range of cameras that are fundamentally pretty much the same.

Adding/removing obvious features appears to be Canon's current solution to this requirement.

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19 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

 

I have always felt the EOS R was nothing more than a stopgap to stop the Sony bleeding while Canon prepared their mature line of cripple hammered EOS mirrorless cameras. With the EOS R they shoved everything they could into the body and tied it all to the 5DIV sensor and threw it out the door to hope it sticks.

The EOS R then gave them enough breathing room to really sit back and figure out how they could screw the consumer at each price point and I think they executed that plan perfectly. 

The big selling point that piqued my interest was the IDX3 sensor in a far cheaper body....but Canon made sure that not only did you not get your money's worth...you got less value than the EOS R that they were forced to make due to Sony. But hats off to Canon because not only did their strategy work, they ended up with nearly record breaking revenues at a time when everyone else was barely making it.

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What other mode besides manual matters when shooting video on a full frame?  It's a non-issue but I understand the frustration.  The cripple hammer definitely there, why go from 30 on the R to 20 Mpix on the R6?!  Shit makes no sense. 

Got the R5.  For hybrid shooting at events it's perfect.  For shooting stills and as a C video cam on set its good.  The one thing really pissing me off right now is the wobble on the IBIS.  I feel it is too severe when shooting wide.  As a hybrid shooter, this was a major selling point since I wnat to get hand held clips on the 15-35 at events.  Everything else I can live with as I am using it mainly for stills with occasional video clips.  

 

 

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2 hours ago, Brett Munoz said:

What other mode besides manual matters when shooting video on a full frame?  It's a non-issue but I understand the frustration.  The cripple hammer definitely there, why go from 30 on the R to 20 Mpix on the R6?!  Shit makes no sense. 

Got the R5.  For hybrid shooting at events it's perfect.  For shooting stills and as a C video cam on set its good.  The one thing really pissing me off right now is the wobble on the IBIS.  I feel it is too severe when shooting wide.  As a hybrid shooter, this was a major selling point since I wnat to get hand held clips on the 15-35 at events.  Everything else I can live with as I am using it mainly for stills with occasional video clips.  

 

 

Can’t you deactivate IBIS to get rid of the wobble?

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46 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Are you the resident Atomos salesman or something?

Lol no I’m just having a hard time deciding which camera to buy and I’m literally frightened by your take on Canon as I’ve been following you for some years now. I just didn’t understand why you would not consider using the R5 with a ninja given the possibilities they announced (8K Prores raw) and that it would theoritically eliminate the overheating issue which seems to be your main concern. Pretty much everything else you regret about the R6 in this article seems to be consistent in the R5. So I was just hoping you could give me an objective feeling of yours about this R5 + Ninja combo so I (and maybe others) can decide whether it is a good way to go or not

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Speaking purely from a personal perspective why I don't use an external recorder (either Ninja, or anything else):

- A second complex interface to operate, on top of the one already on the camera distracts me from the shoot

- The bulky ergonomics makes handheld shooting a chore at double the weight, unless you go all the way and turn it into a shoulder mounted ENG camera

- No weather sealing on the recorder, and big brick of a battery on the back rather than it being internal and discrete

- I absolutely can't stand HDMI as an interface. It's so flakey and unreliable. Easy to damage too

- I like packing away a single unit, I don't like having to dismantle something between takes on-location. If you're only shooting studio work then ok, then external recorder is better suited

- Having to babysit not one but two batteries - one in the camera, one in the recorder.

- What is the point anyway when image quality is so good with internal codecs these days? Even 8bit. You don't really always need to shoot 10bit and if 8bit is easier to edit then that's ok with me. One of my favourite cinematic images of all times is 8bit (Canon 1D C).

- Placement on the rig is never quite ok - I don't like a big screen hanging off the hotshoe, it is unbalanced. I don't really like it hanging off a bit arm from a cage either.

- What is the point of a small mirrorless camera if it isn't small any more? May as well get a C200 or something.

For years Atomos and the manufacturers haven't addressed any of the above.

I like them from a technology standpoint. They have some very talented engineers.

Their UI is well designed, albeit somewhere I don't want to have to go when I'm trying to get some fleeting moment run & gun style.

I think if you're concerned about Canon's issues, you've every right to be.

The dilemma at the moment is that everything on the market has some sort of drawback so it is time to choose your poison.

- Canon. Do you go with a company that seems to be unable to stop lying to its own customers, in my view - ethically a concern, but one that makes cameras that often nail color and skin tones, with the best LOG profile and obviously they are market leading for a reason but I haven't quite been able to understand why

- Sony. Do you go with the best autofocus, best sensors, but still quite humdrum boring to use bodies that don't inspire you to pick them up and whose results are often a bit wonky to say the least in the overall look department?

- Fuji. Do you pick APS-C or really up the ante and go full on in at £6000 with 4K medium format? Their APS-C cameras are the best on the market but they are still crop sensor. Also the X-H2 seems to have gone down a toilet somewhere never to reappear, so there's that. The X-T4 is no S1H.

- Panasonic. Do you forgo autofocus?

- Olympus. Do you forgo the entire existence of the company?

Pick your poison!

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6 hours ago, Brett Munoz said:

 The cripple hammer definitely there, why go from 30 on the R to 20 Mpix on the R6?!  Shit makes no sense. 

Actually that is the only thing that makes sense to me with the R6....they used the 1DX3 sensor. Which sounds fantastic...get the sensor from a $6KUSD camera and only pay $2500USD for it....20MP even makes sense if the R6 turned out to be a lowlight beast. But of course we all know how that actually turned out.

 

4 hours ago, Avenger 2.0 said:

Canon and video in their dslr/mirrorless is always crippled. The biggest thing to me is the single card recording while doing video. Making it useless as a professional tool.

This is my second biggest pet peeve, with my first being no XLR adapter options. But yes....you are correct, the last thing Canon wants users to do is use their mirrorless camera line for professional video work. They want you to buy the R6 as a B photography camera, the R5 as an A photography camera, a C70 as a B video camera, and a C300III as an A video camera. If you do not buy this exact setup Canon wants to be certain that you will be missing out on some many desirable features during  your shoot.

 

4 hours ago, Fox said:

Don’t you ever use a ninja recorder? Would you consider the R5 with a Ninja V+ a good combo? 

Why is this your answer to everything? If you are running and gunning as a OMB and you want the lightest simplest most efficient kit possible a recorder is a horrible idea and it is completely ridiculous to have to buy one to overcome deliberate shortcomings in a camera. And how many times have you tried to rig a recorder and a camera on a one handed gimbal? 

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thank you very much for your answer Andrew.

Well I’m in the market for a new rig and I always shoot with a monitor/recorder as to have a bigger screen to monitor my footage. I also believe ProRes (raw) offers a lot more edit friendly experience, smaller file sizes and  cheaper storage on SSDs rather than expensive CFexpress media. I don’t want to go with a real proper « cinema » camera because I want to be able to shoot stills and I like IBIS and Autofocus. I sure would love in body e-NDs but don’t mind using external ND’s given there is no choice with mirrorless. I’m now struggling with choosing my « poison » exactly as you say between Canon R5 and Sony A1, as I want to renew all my gear including wide array of lenses. I’m in for around 15,000€ and the lenses combination in RF or E Mount makes it that the camera body price difference between them eventually doesn’t show any difference in total amount. 

i tended to lean towards Sony A1 but the lack of 8K raw and 4K120 video support with the Ninja V+ is quite frustrating

On the other side I’m just totally afraid about the general unreliability that you point out regarding Canon’s R5 and especially worst rolling shutter and the IBIS wobble issue as I often like to shoot 16mm in video. 
 

i would love to have your opinion in this regards 

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15 minutes ago, herein2020 said:Why is this your answer to everything? If you are running and gunning as a OMB and you want the lightest simplest most efficient kit possible a recorder is a horrible idea and it is completely ridiculous to have to buy one to overcome deliberate shortcomings in a camera. And how many times have you tried to rig a recorder and a camera on a one handed gimbal? 

I have been shooting run and gun with a recorder/or a monitor including on a one handed gimbal with no issues. Because you don’t like it doesn’t mean others can’t do it.

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25 minutes ago, Fox said:

I have been shooting run and gun with a recorder/or a monitor including on a one handed gimbal with no issues. Because you don’t like it doesn’t mean others can’t do it.

 

Oh I agree 100%, use whatever works for you; but being forced to buy/use a recorder to overcome a camera's shortcomings is a pretty poor excuse of a camera if you ask me. Now using a recorder just because that's the way you rig is one thing @Andrew Reid listed all of the same reasons that I have for not using a recorder.  

One additional downside that Andrew did not mention is you still only get a single storage device for your footage. If that SSD gets corrupted or fails then you lose all of your footage. With my cameras, they all provide dual slot video recording so I also get redundancy.

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29 minutes ago, Fox said:

thank you very much for your answer Andrew.

Well I’m in the market for a new rig and I always shoot with a monitor/recorder as to have a bigger screen to monitor my footage. I also believe ProRes (raw) offers a lot more edit friendly experience, smaller file sizes and  cheaper storage on SSDs rather than expensive CFexpress media. I don’t want to go with a real proper « cinema » camera because I want to be able to shoot stills and I like IBIS and Autofocus. I sure would love in body e-NDs but don’t mind using external ND’s given there is no choice with mirrorless. I’m now struggling with choosing my « poison » exactly as you say between Canon R5 and Sony A1, as I want to renew all my gear including wide array of lenses. I’m in for around 15,000€ and the lenses combination in RF or E Mount makes it that the camera body price difference between them eventually doesn’t show any difference in total amount. 

i tended to lean towards Sony A1 but the lack of 8K raw and 4K120 video support with the Ninja V+ is quite frustrating

On the other side I’m just totally afraid about the general unreliability that you point out regarding Canon’s R5 and especially worst rolling shutter and the IBIS wobble issue as I often like to shoot 16mm in video. 
 

i would love to have your opinion in this regards 

R5 rolling shutter is good, 8K 25 fps is 15ms about the same as the C500 II so a non issue imo, non HQ mode is 9 ms, R6 and 1Dx III are quite bad. Sony IBIS for video is worst than Canon.

With the price of a Ninja V+ + SSD you can buy 2 x 2 TB CFexpress so not sure you are saving money

But what are you shooting and for how long? And in case of overheating is 4K SQ not good enough?

It is so crazy people rave about 4k 120 R5 quality (which is indeed good second only to the A7S III) and say 4k SQ is bad but it is exactly the same.

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6 minutes ago, herein2020 said:

 

With my cameras, they all provide dual slot video recording so I also get redundancy.

Don’t you have the possibility to record both to the ninja and to one card internally?

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13 minutes ago, gt3rs said:

R5 rolling shutter is good, 8K 25 fps is 15ms about the same as the C500 II so a non issue imo, non HQ mode is 9 ms, R6 and 1Dx III are quite bad. Sony IBIS for video is worst than Canon.

With the price of a Ninja V+ + SSD you can buy 2 x 2 TB CFexpress so not sure you are saving money

But what are you shooting and for how long? And in case of overheating is 4K SQ not good enough?

It is so crazy people rave about 4k 120 R5 quality (which is indeed good second only to the A7S III) and say 4k SQ is bad but it is exactly the same.

I understand Sony A1 has an even better handling of rolling shutter with its stacked sensor.


Sony IBIS seems not as good as Canon’s indeed, but doesn’t occasionally introduce wobble to the footage as Canon R5 does either. To me that wobble issue is really a concern, and I think I’d prefer having a less capable IBIS better than nothing than a more powerful IBIS that would overdo its job. 

Sure the price of Ninja + SSDs equals to CFexpress, but CFexpress don’t record ProRes (raw) 

I’m shooting a wide variety of things, from commercials to run and gun short documentaries sometimes, as well as still photography ( that’s why I need a mirorless rather than a dedicated camera).

Again, that lack of 8K raw support is holding me off the A1. I do intend to shoot some 8K and would rather have the gear future proof

 

 

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24 minutes ago, Fox said:

Don’t you have the possibility to record both to the ninja and to one card internally?

 

I am not sure...the R6 deliberately disables this capability. If you try to record clean HDMI out it disables internal recording. But if the R5 does allow this and you did configure it that way...it would defeat the purpose of using the recorder to reduce overheating and the internal card would not be ProRes not to mention your recording time would also now be limited to the internal storage card's size vs the larger SSD in the recorder. To me true dual video recording is no loss in functionality and the exact same codec used in both copies.

But yes, if you are as paranoid as I am about having a copy of the footage, and if the R5 allowed this, then that would be a way to get video storage redundancy. Maybe an R5 owner can chime in and say if you are even allowed to do this with the R5.

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