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1 hour ago, Oliver Daniel said:

Then the response.... “we want our country back”. Back from what? Why can’t they tell us, factually, what they want back? I just want a simple, everyday explanation of getting “back” these incredible benefits. Anyone? No? 

Why is the idea of UK laws being made in the UK so strange to you?

We have our own Parliaments and Assemblies for the purpose of law-making, why do we need another layer of bureaucracy?

Australia, Canada, New Zealand, USA, etc, do perfectly fine, they don't have other countries playing a role in their law-making yet they still have trade agreements and cooperate with other countries.

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Australia is a continent, with huge natural resources, thousands of miles from anywhere else. Canada is half a continent, next door to the biggest market in the world, and if you think that neighbour

Yeah so did I, there was a lot of ideology and feelings wasn't there in the run up to the referendum and very little fact. You had to brush it off and do a character judgement on those advocating for

A lot of assumptions about me in this I don't like. But let's focus on the facts. If we rewind to 2005, you are probably not with a strong opinion on the EU. Probably getting on with your life ju

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10 hours ago, good_1da said:

Why is the idea of UK laws being made in the UK so strange to you?

We have our own Parliaments and Assemblies for the purpose of law-making, why do we need another layer of bureaucracy?

Australia, Canada, New Zealand, USA, etc, do perfectly fine, they don't have other countries playing a role in their law-making yet they still have trade agreements and cooperate with other countries.

You've got the wrong end of the stick.

I was asking what laws people like yourself needed so much, that we couldn't get before? What did you personally have no control over being in the EU? Why can nobody just provide a simple explanation? 

I guess we'll just leave it as that a these questions seem to be impossible to answer. 

 

 

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12 hours ago, good_1da said:

Australia, Canada, New Zealand, USA, etc, do perfectly fine, they don't have other countries playing a role in their law-making yet they still have trade agreements and cooperate with other countries.

Australia is a continent, with huge natural resources, thousands of miles from anywhere else. Canada is half a continent, next door to the biggest market in the world, and if you think that neighbour exerts no influence on Canadian policy-making, you haven't been taking notice. New Zealand is the most remote developed country in the world and the USA is the world's richest economy.

The UK is a small-middling tiny island, riven by some of the worst (entirely home-grown) inequality in the developed world, on the shores of the world's second richest economy, which also happens to be an existentially-important market for our exports. 80% of those exports are services, the continuation of which will rely on us satisfying EU standards across almost the entirety of our own economy.

Up until January 1st 2020 we had one of the most important says in the formulation of EU policy and regulation. We now have none. No say at all. When the EU brings in new regulations or laws that impact the sectors in which we rely on our exports to them - most sectors, that is, we will have to adhere to them or face sectoral disasters, complete with job losses and bankruptcies. Took back control there, dincha?

I'm dipping out of this thread now, as we're only re-prosecuting the same old arguments. You Brexiters don't have and never have had a single cogent argument in favour of leaving the EU, save for nonsense about sovereignty and patriotism. Your victory was built on lies and ignorance, fuelled by racism and will benefit nobody except the already-wealthy. Your arguments are glib, ill-thought-out, facile and mostly easy to debunk or disprove. Your yearning for simplicity, in a complex world, is bringing us close to ruin and you'll be remembered, every one of you, as fools led by charlatans and rightly damned across decades to come.

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46 minutes ago, Tim Sewell said:

I'm dipping out of this thread now, as we're only re-prosecuting the same old arguments. 

Yeah, thats right, typical Remoaner, you take your facts and scurry off back to join all the other liberal elites in your ivory towers of Birkenhead 😉 

 

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The Leave side of the argument was concerned with the bigger picture. The EU was on a path to ever closer union. The crises in the Eurozone had expedited this process. The EU was now encouraging the Eurozone to integrate further - as most member states accepted that it must.

And the EU does not recognise itself as a union with multiple currencies. Britain was no longer at the inner core and was moving at a different speed and to a different destination to other members. The UK was becoming an increasingly marginal and peripheral player. As demonstrated by David Cameron's failed attempts to get substantive treaty changes back in 2016. And also demonstrated that change from within was unlikely.

Given this reality, Leavers came to the conclusion that a withdrawal from the EU was necessary. With the EU no longer having a say in UK Law-making and a return to a bilateral relationship.

As I say, a Remainer saying, "I have a strong attachment to the EU, and I believe in the European project" is not wrong, its just a different perspective. And not one I personally share.

I will make this my last post also.

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29 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

Europe you are part of it too will be weaker after that, Imperial times are over in today's globalized world.

Two completely different things...

EU is a political project which we have withdrawn from. Europe is a continent in the northern hemisphere which the UK is still very much a part of.

Britain will continue to trade and cooperate with other countries including those in the EU. Nobody is banging on about imperialism and empire, except ardent remainers who use it as a tactic of negative framing.

I will try to make this my last post.

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As much as when we study Geography as program of studies, it is impossible to dissociate geography from human presence to comprehend many angles of the same to include social aspects, economics, politics and so on. History as well. Made of past centuries but decades too. Where the contemporary era has a role to play. Or should.

We cannot reduce the physical presence of any population as much as continent population without considering a comprehensive set of them.

Absolutely impossible.

Otherwise, that's pure exclusion at best or its worst, because that's really what such blindness has offered for the subject matter.

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