Sean Cunningham Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 He responded on VIMEO saying he was using ND and shooting at f/2 but doesn't specify the strength. I'm still not convinced it was enough knowing broad daylight on a GH2 I had to use an ND9 to get to f/11 or f/16 at ISO160 and 1/50 shutter the last time I shot broad daylight in the sun and without that I'd have been at f/22 and a shutter speed anywhere from 1/200 to 1/2000 depending on which direction I was facing. I had an ND6 and ND3 with me and could have stacked to be able to open up further but that still would have put me closer to f/4 and, again, that's at ISO160 sensitivity. Had I jacked the ISO to 800 I'd have been back at 1/3-stop above f/11 before resorting to stopping through shutter speed, if my math is right. Seeing the blooming on car lights in night footage here in this thread leads me to believe it's not entirely a case of the raw data being totally incongruous with the meta exposure but I'm reminded of some of the first BMCC footage that I ever saw from someone's tropical vacation, shot RAW of course, and it did not have the same problems. It's a non-phenomenon in the splendidly graded BMCC ProRes footage in "Conyne Eylandt" by Diego Contreras so there's that, assuming BMD is using the same ProRes luts between cameras and it's essentially the same sensor with the same color science. But it's not the same exact sensor or camera so it's not safe assuming anything and there's still plenty of room for a critical flaw, somewhere. Still, while there are multiple areas you can spot the blooming in "Auckland in My Pocket", it's way less objectionable when you're not a tit and you grade your log looking ProRes, like they did, like Bloom did and like Brawley does. It doesn't stick out like a sore thumb like what we're seeing here and while present, if you really look for it in Brawley's market video, it's pretty much a non-issue or at least not a deal-breaking issue, even with the minimal grading he has been publishing. But I'm just looking at the evidence and weighing what is common to the footage where the artifact is either not there, or doesn't jump off the screen and poke you in the eye. The biggest common thread seen is you put it in the hands of professional photographers and you get nice looking footage. From there you have to either assume there's a conspiracy afoot and the pros are all in on it or this is not a point-and-shoot camera, regardless of its looks, and Joe Blogger and Random Prosumer Customer are using a more complex hardware+software device than they're used to and that's why their footage looks broken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Meldgaard Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 Another video to look at here. I didn't come across many problems while filming. The dark spots turn up when the image is way beyond blown out (like 150% if 100% is blown out). What do you think about the blooming here? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XzzrsH1okM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bioskop.Inc Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 But I'm just looking at the evidence and weighing what is common to the footage where the artifact is either not there, or doesn't jump off the screen and poke you in the eye. The biggest common thread seen is you put it in the hands of professional photographers and you get nice looking footage. From there you have to either assume there's a conspiracy afoot and the pros are all in on it or this is not a point-and-shoot camera, regardless of its looks, and Joe Blogger and Random Prosumer Customer are using a more complex hardware+software device than they're used to and that's why their footage looks broken. It does look as if this isn't a camera for fools/amateurs & you probably need a lot more experience than its size or price tag suggests - never thought it was going to be a run'n'gun camera, considering its a S16 sensor. JB did post a screen grab, on another forum, from an Alexa and you could see it had issues when pointing it directly at the sun! Most cameras don't like you pointing them directly at a light source & why would you anyways? And before anyone says it shooting at night really needs some thought put into it & a controlled environment - for films this is the case. But i'm sure BM are on the case & trying to fix the problem (too much money at stake). So by the time i get mine hopefully it will be done, if not a week of testing & back it goes if I can't figure out a practical cure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axel Posted August 30, 2013 Author Share Posted August 30, 2013 From there you have to either assume there's a conspiracy afoot and the pros are all in on it or this is not a point-and-shoot camera, regardless of its looks, and Joe Blogger and Random Prosumer Customer are using a more complex hardware+software device than they're used to and that's why their footage looks broken. Both. In one way or other, video pros seem to hate other video pros, either because they are too precocious but lack experience or they are too experienced assholes and think of you as precocious unexperienced asshole. Experience seems to make the difference. You know what to be aware of by reading about the troubles others shot. On the ground of that you can make own experiences. Now we all know, there are quite some problems to consider: > Need a tripod or very good rig! > Need to learn how to grade. The white orbs almost seem like a minor issue in comparison. Another video to look at here. I didn't come across many problems while filming. The dark spots turn up when the image is way beyond blown out (like 150% if 100% is blown out). What do you think about the blooming here? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XzzrsH1okM I saw a few clips shot with the 17,5mm on GH2/3, and I always thought the DoF didn't fit to the wide angle. Here I like it very much. Changing the focus also changes perspective ever so slightly, almost looks like an anamorphotic shot transition. And: Overall definition looks satisfying, not much RS jello. There is, however, a problem with sharpness. Not caused by the sensor debayering, not softness, but clearly focus. Look at 0'45" for example. The people in the absolute foreground are in crisp focus, everything else is not sharp, but not unsharp enough to look intentionally. This is the third main problem, and perhaps the most difficult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itimjim Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 What do you think about the blooming here? Well, the headlights in all the your shots are displaying the poor circular clipping. It's a shame as the footage in general is f^($ing amaze-balls! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted August 30, 2013 Administrators Share Posted August 30, 2013 Slashcam in Berlin have tested the camera. They suggest the debayer isn't as good for ProRes on the Pocket as it is on the BMCC and it affects the colour science. Either way can't see this camera getting much use from me vs the 5D Mark III raw. It doesn't stand up to it. The shipping delays and imaging flaws are really quite baffling, and I think Blackmagic need to take a long hard look in the mirror. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Meldgaard Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 I saw a few clips shot with the 17,5mm on GH2/3, and I always thought the DoF didn't fit to the wide angle. Here I like it very much. Changing the focus also changes perspective ever so slightly, almost looks like an anamorphotic shot transition. And: Overall definition looks satisfying, not much RS jello. There is, however, a problem with sharpness. Not caused by the sensor debayering, not softness, but clearly focus. Look at 0'45" for example. The people in the absolute foreground are in crisp focus, everything else is not sharp, but not unsharp enough to look intentionally. This is the third main problem, and perhaps the most difficult. Some of the softness is due to the warp stabilizer cropping and some of it is simply me being on the run and not doing a good job. I didn't go to New York to film this, so I actually used minimal time on it. Just pointed the camera and shot, every time I saw something exciting. This movie is as much a test to see how cinematic you can get with the minimal handheld setup and the 'plain tourist run&gun mentality'. Slashcam in Berlin have tested the camera. They suggest the debayer isn't as good for ProRes on the Pocket as it is on the BMCC and it affects the colour science. Either way can't see this camera getting much use from me vs the 5D Mark III raw. It doesn't stand up to it. The shipping delays and imaging flaws are really quite baffling, and I think Blackmagic need to take a long hard look in the mirror. I think the pocket finds it place very well in between DSLR h.264 and raw. For a run&gun setup raw takes up a lot of space, and there is no middle-ground codec for DSLR's that allow you to compress the files in camera while keeping the dynamic range of raw. I will definately use the BMPCC for run&gunning and other shoots where space and practicality wins over sheer image quality. Yes there are some flaws, but we've been working around h.264's awesome compression artifacts for a long time, so this should be peace of cake to deal with! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cantsin Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 The question that is bothering me is why these orbs didn't manifest themselves in John Brawley's test footage, as they should have been all over the place? Very strange indeed! That's actually the good news, since Brawley had a pre-production model with an earlier version of the firmware. Since it's highly unlikely that the sensor was changed later (most likely, the camera was designed around the sensor), it might indeed be an issue with the current firmware and the way it translates the 12 bit sensor data into 10 bit Prores. But we can only speculate at the moment. Blackmagic's head of hardware development has replied on Blackmagic's user forum that his team is currently investigating the issue and will release information soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bioskop.Inc Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 That's actually the good news, since Brawley had a pre-production model with an earlier version of the firmware. Since it's highly unlikely that the sensor was changed later (most likely, the camera was designed around the sensor), it might indeed be an issue with the current firmware and the way it translates the 12 bit sensor data into 10 bit Prores. But we can only speculate at the moment. Blackmagic's head of hardware development has replied on Blackmagic's user forum that his team is currently investigating the issue and will release information soon. Yep, that's what i hope too & have got my fingers/toes crossed. Also got the feeling that people are treating the ProRes like RAW when filming when it quite frankly isn't, thus exposing far too much to the right & clipping highlights really badly. This camera might need some real care & attention paid to it when filming. Sean Cunningham 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cantsin Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 On the positive side of things, the image of the Pocket is really beautiful (when you don't run into the artifacts). I just made a comparative shot between the Pocket and the GH2, using the 12mm SLR Magic and the 25mm Voigtlander on both cameras, and the difference between the footage is like night and day - you really can't stand the (comparatively) oversaturated, artificially sharpened amateur video image of the GH2 any more in comparison to the genuine detail and non-plastic colors from the Pocket. With the BMC cameras and Canon/Magic Lantern raw, it seems as if 8bit-h264 DSLR video now has become an episode (2009-2012) just like HDV camcorders were the episode before them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bioskop.Inc Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 On the positive side of things, the image of the Pocket is really beautiful (when you don't run into the artifacts). I just made a comparative shot between the Pocket and the GH2, using the 12mm SLR Magic and the 25mm Voigtlander on both cameras, and the difference between the footage is like night and day - you really can't stand the (comparatively) oversaturated, artificially sharpened amateur video image of the GH2 any more in comparison to the genuine detail and non-plastic colors from the Pocket. With the BMC cameras and Canon/Magic Lantern raw, it seems as if 8bit-h264 DSLR video now has become an episode (2009-2012) just like HDV camcorders were the episode before them. So glad to hear you're liking the Pocket & yes the images do look great - GH2 always looked like video to me. Have you tried using non-M4/3 lenses? And is the blooming really that much of an issue or can you avoid it with a little bit of sensible know how? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cantsin Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Have you tried using non-M4/3 lenses? And is the blooming really that much of an issue or can you avoid it with a little bit of sensible know how? Yes, have a lot of 16mm film camera lenses, and many of them work great. But: blooming is an issue. You can't avoid it if you film scenes with highlights that are overexposed by more than 2 stops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bioskop.Inc Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Yes, have a lot of 16mm film camera lenses, and many of them work great. But: blooming is an issue. You can't avoid it if you film scenes with highlights that are overexposed by more than 2 stops. Ok, so you just have to expose properly or just a little to the right - too much clipping & its a mess. ND filters seem to be a must then & maybe a few others. Well, it is only 10bit ProRes & i always assumed that the 13 stops of DR was for RAW or a bit far fetched... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cantsin Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Ok, so you just have to expose properly or just a little to the right - too much clipping & its a mess. Yes, but note that if you film in dusk, the difference between car headlights and the rest of the scene is about 4 stops, and at night, it might be something less 8 stops. If you expose to the right, the rest of your scene will be completely underexposed. Also, forget filming concerts, for example, with their big exposure difference between stage lights and ambient light. Blackmagic advertises the camera as "everything you need to bring cinematic film look shooting to the most difficult and remote locations, perfect for documentaries, independent films, photo journalism, music festivals, ENG, protest marches and even war zones." This is certainly not true for the camera as it works now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Ma Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 Yes, but note that if you film in dusk, the difference between car headlights and the rest of the scene is about 4 stops, and at night, it might be something less 8 stops. If you expose to the right, the rest of your scene will be completely underexposed. Also, forget filming concerts, for example, with their big exposure difference between stage lights and ambient light. Blackmagic advertises the camera as "everything you need to bring cinematic film look shooting to the most difficult and remote locations, perfect for documentaries, independent films, photo journalism, music festivals, ENG, protest marches and even war zones." This is certainly not true for the camera as it works now. The real bummer here is for early adopters who don't have much video editing experience (who've never put on trackers to remove the black dots, or know how to clean up audio in a usable way), or know how but never intended to do processing outside of premiere pro who took a gamble on BlackMagic delivering a bug free product. Some people need to put out videos daily rather than spend hours trying to perfect a < 1 minute composition. Cries for prompt firmware updates and recalls may not be loud enough because a big percentage of BlackMagic customers probably know how to circumvent these issues and still make use out of the BMPCC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacek Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 BM statement: http://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12250 " All sensors, be it CCD or CMOS, will have a ‘blooming’ effect when during severe overexposure, the pixel is over saturated and excessive charges overflow to neighbouring pixels. It just looks different depending on the sensor type. We are not seeing this on some of our test cameras so it might be something that is calibration related. Please contact your nearest support office and we’ll run another calibration on the camera. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Cunningham Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 With film you get a somewhat similar effect at the emulsion layer. When it's in the emulsion, what I recall, the effect is fairly uniform across color records (unlike what even Panavision lenses do around highlights), it's just happening at a much finer scale. The photosites on the sensors for the BMCC and BMPC are larger than that of a 5D so the effect is being magnified here since there's no oversampling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bioskop.Inc Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 I've seen this blooming on other cameras & its only disturbing if you know what to look for or let it bother you. Also, i think their wording of "extreme overexposure" is probably the key here - its only ProRes & not RAW. This is probably a lot better camera than people realise & you'll have to treat it as such. Just saw Upstream Color & there is some extreme overexposed parts which sometimes eat into people's silhouettes. Also wondering how many cameras they'll have to recalibrate or whether they're going to do this before they ship anymore? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoodlum Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 For those interested, here is the official response from Fuji related to 'blooming' from their X10 camera. A sensor fix is the only way to permanently resolve this issue. https://www.fujifilmusa.com/support/ServiceSupportProductContent.do?dbid=881329&prodcat=234644&sscucatid=664262 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarimNassar Posted September 6, 2013 Share Posted September 6, 2013 so let me get this straight and correct me if I am wrong - all cameras so far have had some release date delays, one being extremely ridiculous regarding the original bmcc - all cameras have had some sort of defect/issue with the sensor - their new announced 4k camera has actually worse dynamic range than their original one ...not trusting that company any time soon. Really surprised people are not giving up on them already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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