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kye

Best IBIS in the business?

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4 hours ago, fuzzynormal said:

It's okay.  Depending on what you're shooting, a shooter often has to skip it though.  The algorithm will fail when high motion is present.  Panning or tilting is not a good idea.

That said, the GH5 under the standard IBIS will take the edge off of handheld shooting for sure.  It's actually kinda nice that it "floats" a bit.  Gives the frame some smoothness, but maintaining a nice kinetic energy.  

But the IBIS on my EM5II is still the best I've ever used.  With that and a little practice, one could easily emulate dolly shots handheld.

IBIS is not a gimbal though.  If you think you can get it to work that way, prepare to be disappointed.

Good info, thanks :)

I've shot hand-held forever, and even before I was into video I shot a lot of long exposure stills hand-held with tiny cameras, so my jedi gimbal hands aren't too bad.  What I want is something to take the edge off.  I shoot hand-held because I like the freedom of movement and speed of shooting, but in terms of movement I want somewhere between the shaky-and-distracting-as-crap look of no IS and the too-smooth-slightly-drugged-floaty look of gimbal footage.  I would also like to be able to do a passable hand-held pan or tilt if I'm in a pinch.  

The level of movement from a shoulder-rig is probably about right, but I find myself frequently in situations where there isn't time or space for any kind of camera support so IBIS is where it's at for me.

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5 minutes ago, kye said:

I want somewhere between the shaky-and-distracting-as-crap look of no IS and the too-smooth-slightly-drugged-floaty look of gimbal footage.

That's what you'd get from these cams.  Actually, I think the stabilization system on any brand will get you there.  My wife has an X-Pro2 with some cool optical stabilization, but I'm partial to IBIS though because I like to use old primes.

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21 minutes ago, fuzzynormal said:

That's what you'd get from these cams.  Actually, I think the stabilization system on any brand will get you there.  My wife has an X-Pro2 with some cool optical stabilization, but I'm partial to IBIS though because I like to use old primes.

I am also interested in old primes, so OIS is out, and I'm sure that most cameras IBIS would do a good job but I sometimes shoot at longer focal lengths or when I'm doing difficult movements and that's where I could use the extra help and want the best IBIS I can get.  

This is me a few weeks ago in Pomeii doing a fake slider shot:

526BF5CB-2E52-4058-B64F-93AE91417E2D.jpeg

This kind of stuff is why great IBIS can't always be replaced with mediocre IBIS or a gimbal or tripod / monopod / steadicam / shoulder-rig / easy-rig.

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14 hours ago, kye said:

 

526BF5CB-2E52-4058-B64F-93AE91417E2D.jpeg

 

If that's your goal, I, personally, would take one of the Olympus cameras.  

Not sure what your'e ultimately going after in your long term goals, but as an example, when I finished shooting my latest doc this summer, I did a debrief session with my wife and we figured that we probably should have shot the film on EM5II's instead of GH5's. 

Yes, the IQ is wildly better with the LUMIX flagship model, but the EM5II is a much cheaper camera.  That would have opened up a few grand for the other MORE IMPORTANT parts of the budget - and that's so, so much more pragmatic than an edge in IQ.  Also, the EM5II is just more adept in crazy handheld situations....which 80% of the doc ended up being.

The Oly cams have quirks you have to adapt to, but nothing that's sways me enough to avoid them.  For instance, you have to set white balance.  Auto-WB drifts too much.  The image on the EM5II will alias when shooting super sharp modern glass. (newer 4K OLY models are clean) The on-board pre-amps aren't great, but when paired with my Sennheiser ew100 kit, it works well enough. 

So, I look at your photograph above and think, yeah, I could easily do a decent dolly/so-mo cheat in that situation with my old EM5II.  The GH5?  Eh, not so much.

That's my anecdote anyway.  Balance your choice with all you do.  So many cams these days are more than capable.

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On 10/9/2018 at 12:49 PM, androidlad said:

As we expected, due to the significantly increased diameter of Z mount, the IBIS performance of Z7 looks on par with GH5:

 

https://kolarivision.com/nikon-z7-dissasembly-teardown/

after disassembling a Z7 they claim, that the IBIS moves even less than in a Sony. But the Video looks nice, much more like Panasonic or Fuji than Sony. Olympus is still a tiny bit better, at least for photography. 

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4 hours ago, frontfocus said:

https://kolarivision.com/nikon-z7-dissasembly-teardown/

after disassembling a Z7 they claim, that the IBIS moves even less than in a Sony. But the Video looks nice, much more like Panasonic or Fuji than Sony. Olympus is still a tiny bit better, at least for photography. 

Here are their exact words:

We were surprised to find that the Nikon Z7’s shaker itself does not move very much compared to Sony and others. Despite this, Nikon still claims a CIPA image stabilization rating of 5-stops, where the A7R III claims 5.5.

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10 hours ago, fuzzynormal said:

If that's your goal, I, personally, would take one of the Olympus cameras.  

Not sure what your'e ultimately going after in your long term goals, but as an example, when I finished shooting my latest doc this summer, I did a debrief session with my wife and we figured that we probably should have shot the film on EM5II's instead of GH5's. 

Yes, the IQ is wildly better with the LUMIX flagship model, but the EM5II is a much cheaper camera.  That would have opened up a few grand for the other MORE IMPORTANT parts of the budget - and that's so, so much more pragmatic than an edge in IQ.  Also, the EM5II is just more adept in crazy handheld situations....which 80% of the doc ended up being.

The Oly cams have quirks you have to adapt to, but nothing that's sways me enough to avoid them.  For instance, you have to set white balance.  Auto-WB drifts too much.  The image on the EM5II will alias when shooting super sharp modern glass. (newer 4K OLY models are clean) The on-board pre-amps aren't great, but when paired with my Sennheiser ew100 kit, it works well enough. 

So, I look at your photograph above and think, yeah, I could easily do a decent dolly/so-mo cheat in that situation with my old EM5II.  The GH5?  Eh, not so much.

That's my anecdote anyway.  Balance your choice with all you do.  So many cams these days are more than capable.

Thanks :)

I watched a few reviews of the Oly's and those quirks seemed a pretty big price to pay for me.  I do pretty well with the XC10 so I suspect that I have relatively steady hands.

I think that's the state of the camera market at the moment, there are cameras with spectacular specs but also significant weaknesses, and real-life always requires a balance of performance across most of the features.  The pic I posted is an extreme example but it happens enough for it to be what I need to plan for rather than the exception.

8 hours ago, frontfocus said:

https://kolarivision.com/nikon-z7-dissasembly-teardown/

after disassembling a Z7 they claim, that the IBIS moves even less than in a Sony. But the Video looks nice, much more like Panasonic or Fuji than Sony. Olympus is still a tiny bit better, at least for photography. 

 

3 hours ago, jonpais said:

Here are their exact words:

We were surprised to find that the Nikon Z7’s shaker itself does not move very much compared to Sony and others. Despite this, Nikon still claims a CIPA image stabilization rating of 5-stops, where the A7R III claims 5.5.

With IBIS there are three things that I see to consider:

  • How far the sensor can move
  • How much motion is left when it is stabilising within its working range (stops, EV)
  • What behaviour happens when it gets close to the edges

My personal opinion is that how far it can move is more important than how many stops of motion are left.  The difference between 5 and 5.5 stops is nothing if one of those sensors can stabilise your hand shake and the other one can't travel far enough and has to let some motion bleed through.  

If we were to get those two cameras and shake the shit out of them while both were in their working stabilisation range then you wouldn't be able to tell much difference between 5 and 5.5 stops, but if one is within its range and the other isn't then the comparison would be between 5 and 1 stops, or 5 and zero stops, which will be night and day.

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Olympus is the best but Panasonic is very close behind. Olympus looks more natural compared to Panasonic; sometimes you get weird warping with the Panasonic depending on the lens, etc. though that's generally only when you move / shake too much. They're both definitely tops when it comes to mirrorless ILC. I've never been impressed with Sony's ibis and never used The X-H1. I don't have any experience with iPhones, but the stabilization on my LG V20 is generally pretty bad, though it's acceptable when shooting wide. 

I'd probably go with Panasonic if I'm shooting with vintage primes and using it more for video work in general. They just have more video features than Olympus, though if Olympus ever came out with a GH5 equivalent I'd seriously consider it over the GH5. 

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Well probably few remember this but when the GH5 and the Oly EM1 mk II were being developed Panasonic helped out Olympus with some video features, and Olympus, in exchange helped Panasonic out with IBIS. So it is no surprise that both cameras are pretty close IBIS wise. And so no surprise Olympus jumped ahead, for them, on the video side.

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One technique I’ve used, especially when shooting with the GH5 and pointing the camera at a subject for as long as minutes at a time, is to intentionally sway the camera a bit from side to side.

The reason being, if I try holding the camera too steady for long periods of time, my arms would fatigue and I’d introduce jitter into the shot, no matter how good the IBIS. And a little side to side camera movement is more interesting to watch than a completely static shot anyhow.

And lo and behold, I was just watching an easyrig tutorial where the photographer recommends doing just that.

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2 hours ago, jonpais said:

One technique I’ve used, especially when shooting with the GH5 and pointing the camera at a subject for as long as minutes at a time, is to intentionally sway the camera a bit from side to side.

The reason being, if I try holding the camera too steady for long periods of time, my arms would fatigue and I’d introduce jitter into the shot, no matter how good the IBIS. And a little side to side camera movement is more interesting to watch than a completely static shot anyhow.

And lo and behold, I was just watching an easyrig tutorial where the photographer recommends doing just that.

I did a bunch of that on my last trip actually, kind of like a fake sideways slider shot.  It's harder to do at longer focal lengths but I had success in staying within the IS of my XC10 with perhaps 60% of the shots I tried.  

I found the trick was to make sure neither leg was straight, hold the camera steady and "fix" your upper body so it's all rigid (but not tensed) and then after you slowly breathe out to just take your eyes off the screen, or just kind of let them go soft-focus, and then just move from one leg to the other while holding your upper body motionless.  I found that if I looked at the screen then I was tempted to rotate the camera to keep an object in the same spot in the frame, and that means that your upper body isn't fixed and you're now slowly rotating the camera, which means that the IS has to sense you're now panning and all the shakes are likely to return because you're moving slightly.  If you are looking at the screen then it will be motionless if you're holding it within the IS range, but if you go outside of that then you'll see movement in the screen, which will prompt you to try and move to compensate, and often that movement will mean you shake more, and it all goes downhill from there.

In any case, it's better just to rock back and forwards a few times, partly because it gives you a chance to relax and kind of practice, but also it gives you flexibility in post of choosing which direction you want the shot to slide in :)

4 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

Olympus is the best but Panasonic is very close behind. Olympus looks more natural compared to Panasonic; sometimes you get weird warping with the Panasonic depending on the lens, etc. though that's generally only when you move / shake too much. They're both definitely tops when it comes to mirrorless ILC. I've never been impressed with Sony's ibis and never used The X-H1. I don't have any experience with iPhones, but the stabilization on my LG V20 is generally pretty bad, though it's acceptable when shooting wide. 

I'd probably go with Panasonic if I'm shooting with vintage primes and using it more for video work in general. They just have more video features than Olympus, though if Olympus ever came out with a GH5 equivalent I'd seriously consider it over the GH5. 

Thanks, that's useful.  I did wonder if the GH5 was 90% of the Oly or 60% or how close it was.  The GH5 has so much else going for it to take into consideration.

My iPhone 8 (not plus) has pretty good IS actually.  I am frequently impressed with it stabilising when I didn't think it would, like if you're shooting and moving or if there's a gust of wind or whatever.  Unfortunately these things are all relative - someone with steady hands will say something is great but those with a bit more movement will have no success with it, so it's hard to judge if people haven't compared both options over a period of time.

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17 hours ago, kye said:

Thanks, that's useful.  I did wonder if the GH5 was 90% of the Oly or 60% or how close it was.  The GH5 has so much else going for it to take into consideration.

Hard to put a percentage, but a lot of the time you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between Olympus and Panasonic stabilization. It's really only when you push it to the limits does one clearly outperform the other. You won't notice much difference though in basic/typical handheld shooting. 

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Hmm, I know the GH5 has a ton more features but after using my friend’s E-M10iii, watching videos from that camera on here, and just spending a little while watching online videos from the E-M1ii, I think the overall image is just more organic from the E-M1ii compared to the GH5.

It looks like the Olympus has about a half a stop less dynamic range, and is only 8bit compared to 10bit on the GH5, but the colors still look nicer on the Olympus. And from what I have read, the Olympus has near 6.5 stops of stabilization and clearly beats the GH5. The G9 may be closer to the Olympus than the GH5 with IBIS. And in fact, I think fuzzy is right that the EM5ii has better IBIS than the GH5. Hopefully the E-M5iii will be released soon and best all of the above.

I also have a feeling that Olympus is the next company to watch and think they may actually be the first consumer camera company to offer Raw or ProRes on one of their cams. We’ll see. 

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2 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

Hard to put a percentage, but a lot of the time you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between Olympus and Panasonic stabilization. It's really only when you push it to the limits does one clearly outperform the other. You won't notice much difference though in basic/typical handheld shooting. 

Thanks, that's what I was thinking.  I've read that Olympus helped Panasonic with the IBIS in the GH5 and that's why it's so good, but the difference seems to be more like 10-20% better rather than night-and-day.  

1 hour ago, mercer said:

Hmm, I know the GH5 has a ton more features but after using my friend’s E-M10iii, watching videos from that camera on here, and just spending a little while watching online videos from the E-M1ii, I think the overall image is just more organic from the E-M1ii compared to the GH5.

It looks like the Olympus has about a half a stop less dynamic range, and is only 8bit compared to 10bit on the GH5, but the colors still look nicer on the Olympus. And from what I have read, the Olympus has near 6.5 stops of stabilization and clearly beats the GH5. The G9 may be closer to the Olympus than the GH5 with IBIS. And in fact, I think fuzzy is right that the EM5ii has better IBIS than the GH5. Hopefully the E-M5iii will be released soon and best all of the above.

I also have a feeling that Olympus is the next company to watch and think they may actually be the first consumer camera company to offer Raw or ProRes on one of their cams. We’ll see. 

Yes, ideally I'd wait, but I've run out of time before my next trip so I'm picking up a GH5 today.

In the end it was the 10-bit, 4K60, 1080p180, 29 minute limit and the noisy preamps on the EM1ii that swayed me.  Even if the image and stabilisation is nicer, those are still differences I can't get past unfortunately.  The EM1ii looks like a much better camera for stills, especially with PDAF and the 50MP sensor shift, but I'm almost 100% video so it's just not the right match for me.

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