Jump to content
Ed_David

Ursa mini...is this the end of blackmagic?

Recommended Posts

EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs
21 minutes ago, Jonesy Jones said:

We're talking about two different issues. I guess Raven has multiple problems. 

I understand what you're saying. I just don't see much magenta in the same way as some of the more blatant 4.6k examples. There are magenta claims on the 4.6k that are just not credible and require pushing the footage in post to reveal some anomaly, which is otherwise not visible. I'm not talking about that type of suspect activity that would show up any camera!

Is there a slight color shift to the Sunday Afternoon image? It does look like it, but I'm not seeing any obvious magenta corners or sides. I know from REDuser that the guy who shot this didn't have any ND or IR filters and shot at very small apertures (f16/f22). Perhaps that has something to do with it.

That is also a good reason not to shoot the 4.6k or any camera at extreme apertures, as color shifts will occur. I can't believe some people think it is a good idea to shoot footage at those apertures. The result will never be pretty for color or detail and sharpness.

RED Raven.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Kino said:

I understand what your saying. I just don't see much in the same way as some of the more blatant 4.6k examples. There are magenta claims on the 4.6k that are just not credible and require pushing the footage in post to reveal some anomaly, which is otherwise not visible. I'm not talking about that type of suspect activity that would show up any camera!

Is there a slight color shift to the Sunday Afternoon image? It does look like it, but I'm not seeing any obvious magenta corners or sides. I know from REDuser that the guy who shot this didn't have any ND or IR filters and shot at very small apertures (f16/f22). Perhaps that has something to do with it.

Agreed. Some of the BM footage corner issues are drastic. Blatant. But much, maybe even most of the stuff posted I can barely see or would have missed if it hadn't been pointed out. Exactly like the Raven footage I posted. To me, the Raven footage is actually more obvious than some of the UM46 stuff that supposedly has magenta corners. My point is purely this, if some of the UM46 cameras suffer from a slight magenta vignetting that apparently also plagues some Ravens, yet BM is somehow the ONLY camera company that makes faulty cameras and delivers late. I just don't get it. 

Second, NOBODY on this planet denies that there are some UM46's with very problematic magenta corners, not even BM. Those cameras are RMA'd. BM responded with a firmware fix (that corrects this problem slightly) and has slowed down production I assume to improve quality control, but that is pure conjecture. And there seems to be an overall sense that the cameras coming out are improved in this regard. Also, BM has rocked an awesome 4.0 beta that will eventually be debugged. They do not make perfect cameras, but who does and at what price point? I love BM and cannot for the life of me understand why they take so much flak. NOBODY has helped the frugal filmmaker to create amazing images like BM has, nobody.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Hanriverprod said:

Some users are saying every camera is effected to varying degrees but i guess only bmd will know. Are you a moderator here and there? Just move my post then. This thread is about the quality of ursa mini and the magenta problem has been a well known issue since prerelease cameras were out on the field. And those two threads are two of the biggest threads on those sites. 

How about this since you're the expert. Take your ursa 4.6 and shoot a white surface above 5.6 and share it with us.

You're a real prick aren't you!

A few means a few, go to that thread & count - it isn't hundreds. Yes, some cameras have a problem & others don't, but don't go saying every camera has it.

Every camera has its quirks & yes BM normally release things that aren't 100% perfect - BUT THEY DO END UP FIXING THEM!

Who are you working for to be such an arsehole?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/31/2016 at 0:18 PM, dhessel said:

My biggest issue with BM is that I really don't like the way the company, at least when it comes to cameras, operates. It is awesome that BM offers free versions of their software but the way they conduct themselves otherwise is downright disrepectful at times. They over promise and under deliever, they are deceptive and not really trust worthy. With the Mini two features were lost GPS in September 2015 and global shutter in March 2016 yet they announced at NAB the camera was going to be shipping in July 2015 when they were clearly nowhere near ready to ship. Some say it was over optimism but I don't buy it, I think they knew full well they wouldn't make that date an announced it anyway. Then for the following eight months they moved the ship date one month at a time stringing customers even though I am sure they also knew that it would not be shipping that following month in the many instances when they changed the date. It seems they like to create a buzz, offer a BS ship date to get people excited and focused on the product then string them along until it is finally ready. 

There are many other instances dating back to their very first camera and their communication still an issue. The biggest one for me is how they treated their URSA owners. At NAB they said that URSA owners would be given priority for the 4.6k sensors and would get their turret upgrades first. They even announced a lower price for the 4K URSA so new customers could buy it then and pre-order the turret for the same price as just pre-ordering the 4.6K URSA. That way the can use the camera now and would also be given first priority on the new sensors. Yet when the time came they backed out of their promise and released the 4.6k Mini first. Now I understand it is a business and clearly the Mini was the new flag ship camera. With it being so overdue they decided to release it instead of living up to their promise. Understandable but how did they handle it? An appology or at least an explanation to the URSA owners? Nope, they said absolutely nothing at all. They released the Mini and didn't even bother to mention the URSA in their announment email or video. They left the URSA owners in the dark with out any official announcment or explaination. The URSA owners still have no idea when they might be getting theirs but they are clearly at the bottom of priorities now. 

If someone can come up and offer what BM does I am sure many BM users would happily jump ship, especially if they are respectful and communicate well. Until then BM probably isn't going anywhere. 

Who in the video world doesn't know how Blackmagic operates?  When the pocket first came out I balked.  On this very forum I got into arguments when I said no way for $1,000... for ME.  I didn't tell anyone else what to do with their money.  I just said I would pass.  Well a few firmware enhancements later and a $500 price cut and I became a proud and satisfied owner of a BMPCC.  It is still my main video shooter.  Cell phone is by B camera.  T3i... Don't even bother.

Wait for the camera to launch and the inevitable firmwares and price cuts.  When things are just the way you like it, then buy.

Blackmagic is a bizarre company.  They put out some nice and very interesting stuff but they are bizarre.  Just work around the oddball stuff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Bioskop.Inc said:

You're a real prick aren't you!

A few means a few, go to that thread & count - it isn't hundreds. Yes, some cameras have a problem & others don't, but don't go saying every camera has it.

Every camera has its quirks & yes BM normally release things that aren't 100% perfect - BUT THEY DO END UP FIXING THEM!

Who are you working for to be such an arsehole?

Are you bmds owners mom or something? Haha why are you so angry about people discussing something? Go look up what censorship means. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe BMD forums are much much more open about discussing this? While reduser shuts this down hard.

I hang around the RED forums a little, not much but more than than BMD forums, & I'm very unaware of these Raven issues!! Yet it is completely impossible to be unaware of the BMD issues even if you never visit their forums!

I'm guessing BMD the company and its users are much more open in discussing it, vs RED (the company and owners?) tend to brush it under the rug?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Jonesy Jones said:

Agreed. Some of the BM footage corner issues are drastic. Blatant. But much, maybe even most of the stuff posted I can barely see or would have missed if it hadn't been pointed out. Exactly like the Raven footage I posted. To me, the Raven footage is actually more obvious than some of the UM46 stuff that supposedly has magenta corners. My point is purely this, if some of the UM46 cameras suffer from a slight magenta vignetting that apparently also plagues some Ravens, yet BM is somehow the ONLY camera company that makes faulty cameras and delivers late. I just don't get it. 

Second, NOBODY on this planet denies that there are some UM46's with very problematic magenta corners, not even BM. Those cameras are RMA'd. BM responded with a firmware fix (that corrects this problem slightly) and has slowed down production I assume to improve quality control, but that is pure conjecture. And there seems to be an overall sense that the cameras coming out are improved in this regard. Also, BM has rocked an awesome 4.0 beta that will eventually be debugged. They do not make perfect cameras, but who does and at what price point? I love BM and cannot for the life of me understand why they take so much flak. NOBODY has helped the frugal filmmaker to create amazing images like BM has, nobody.  

Indeed, a lot of the so-called magenta examples on the forums are suspicious to me. They shoot a white wall at f/16 or some ungodly aperture, push the saturation to over 100% in post, and then complain that there is something wrong with the Ursa 4.6k sensor as opposed to their own test methods! Of course, if you do this with any camera, you are not going to get a good result. It's such a waste of time and it takes attention away from those units that may have real problems.

As for the price/performance of BMD cameras, there is no argument from me. They are simply the best in their price range as I've stated above. Where else can you buy a $3K camera with 4K 12 bit RAW, 2 XLRs, an LCD, SDI out, a global shutter, and a Resolve USB key valued at $1000? It's a crazy good deal!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, AaronChicago said:

I can't speak for everyone that has bought a 4.6K, but myself, and the 2 people I know in town who bought one, haven't had any problems with the magenta corners. I even did a stress test against a white wall at f/8 35-70mm.

This is yours, what f stop was it taken at?

Pittman120t_2.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Maybe BMD forums are much much more open about discussing this? While reduser shuts this down hard.

I hang around the RED forums a little, not much but more than than BMD forums, & I'm very unaware of these Raven issues!! Yet it is completely impossible to be unaware of the BMD issues even if you never visit their forums!

I'm guessing BMD the company and its users are much more open in discussing it, vs RED (the company and owners?) tend to brush it under the rug?

I'm not sure I agree that RED's problems are "brushed under the rug." At least, that's not what I've seen with recent issues.

The Raven problems I've listed here, in addition to a few others (e.g., overheating, black shading, stuck pixels), are reported and discussed extensively on Reduser. In fact, the black sun problem was apparently fixed through firmware very soon after it was reported. That was a case of RED responding in lighting time to a known problem.

As for the OLPF flares that I posted above, there is currently no solution to that as it cannot be fixed through firmware (the Raven has a fixed OLPF unlike the other RED cameras). You just have to avoid shooting at small apertures while aiming at the sun.

As we all know, there is no such thing as a perfect camera and you should know the strengths and weaknesses of your system so that you can avoid the latter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Kino said:

I'm not sure I agree that RED's problems are "brushed under the rug." At least, that's not what I've seen with recent issues.

 

What I mean is it is confine to a few threads on reduser, but doesn't spread out the the wider world of the internet etc
Unlike BMD UM4.6K which every time you turn your head there is someone else there complaining about it, or repeating what someone else said (or repeating repeating repeating what someone else said about it!).

Maybe it is because BMD is making many many more sales than RED, thus the problems might only be at the same rate, but because there are so so many more models out there you hear more about it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you spend money on it and your welfare is tied to it then you're not going to go around complaining about how your tool has issues. I bought one of the first Red ones and remember even then people on reduser were overwhelmingly positive on the red cameras because they were financially invested in it. It's like everything else these days, everyone is marketing something including themselves. You can't really trust strangers and need to just test them yourself and share the footage online if you can. Everything else take with a grain of salt.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

What I mean is it is confine to a few threads on reduser, but doesn't spread out the the wider world of the internet etc
Unlike BMD UM4.6K which every time you turn your head there is someone else there complaining about it, or repeating what someone else said (or repeating repeating repeating what someone else said about it!).

Maybe it is because BMD is making many many more sales than RED, thus the problems might only be at the same rate, but because there are so so many more models out there you hear more about it. 

BM sells A LOT more cameras than Red fo shizzle. They also sell to a much less experienced user (including myself). BM cannot possibly produce the quality Red does, nor can it quality control like Red. And cannot R&D like Red. Put them all together and you have what we have. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

What I mean is it is confine to a few threads on reduser, but doesn't spread out the the wider world of the internet etc
Unlike BMD UM4.6K which every time you turn your head there is someone else there complaining about it, or repeating what someone else said (or repeating repeating repeating what someone else said about it!).

Maybe it is because BMD is making many many more sales than RED, thus the problems might only be at the same rate, but because there are so so many more models out there you hear more about it. 

There are two issues here, one of which you have alluded to in your post. BMD's volume is much higher, but its price point is exponentially lower than RED. Consequently, BMD is a victim of its own success when it comes to these online complaints.

It's the ultimate paradox: they offer professional grade tools at consumer and prosumer prices. As a result of mass producing what are otherwise high-end tools for professionals, they have to deal with all kinds of people complaining that something doesn't work right. After all, these CDNG RAW files are not easy to work with and are seriously beefy files!

RED doesn't face the same online attacks because its products are not mass produced and are aimed mostly at professionals. When problems occur, their users are more likely to get in touch with RED directly than take to the forums.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Hanriverprod said:

 

The other cameras have an even color cast when the iso is bumped and saturation is pushed.

The problem with the um 4.6k is that the color cast is uneven and gets worse in the corners.

Wow

As John said, it's all about the image.  And what the hooey is going on with that image?

And for me, it's also about customer support and ergonomics and day-to-day strength of a camera - can it handle on-set abuse?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...