KnightsFan

Post. I trust my calibrated monitor in a controlled room better than the one on set. So what I do with any new camera is I do a bunch of tests to find a setting that I like, then I shoot everything in that setting and adjust in post as needed. That way I am very familiar with what I can or can't do with that setting. I will often do tests to create specific color node graphs ahead of time, designed to be applied in post. But on the shoot I want everything to be familiar, even when I know based on my tests what it will transform into. That's not to say I'm good at cinematography. But I do think I'm good at not wasting people's time. I test everything ahead of time by myself or with the people leading the project, then we maximize set time for the actors and crew. No fiddling with settings while people are waiting around.

What I like about recent Canon C line is that the skin often has a bit more separation from other colors. I don't know that I prefer red/magenta, but it's not nice if skin gets muddled with everything else. I wouldn't say all Canon, because I was honestly never a fan of the C100's image for the few shoots I used it on.
I don't know that I especially like color on the Panasonic S-series as SOOC it tends to exaggerate yellows. It's a great camera and does what I need at an unbeatable price though.

Right, but they are not the same as shooting log and then using Resolve color management as a 1-step modification. On my S5, shooting Vlog and then using color management > shooting standard profile.
Or, if you mean a baked in user-specified LUT, that adds another dimension again.
I know, I meant for the discussion. Otherwise... Alexa 35 is always the answer 🙂
These are hard questions because almost no test footage on the internet is SOOC, I haven't used every camera, and also of course there are many different film stocks so it really depends what you consider a film look. I'll also assume price new so the C70 is >$4k etc.
But given my limited knowledge, and if the only consideration is color with zero post manipulation, for a generic project, my only answer is the Samsung NX1. Absolutely blows everything else I've used out of the water!
However, I would never use NX as its a dead system with no active EF adapters. And there is no log profile.
So my personal choice in that scenario would probably be a Panasonic S5IIx. But a good portion of my reasoning is based on Vlog, its pixel shift photo mode, and no strange crop factors and other limitations like some others. So not strictly color.
This introduces another caveat in addition to the ones above, which is that color is the last consideration for a run and gun doc. My choice is whichever camera has the best AF, IS, sensitivity, audio, and reliability. So while the NX1 color is great, it's absolutely my last pick for the purpose.
Overall, I would pick a C200 for the $4k budget, and C500mkII for $10k. They have great color and also fit the other criteria.
Ergonomics play much less of a role here than for doc, but of course the big consideration is what the production looks like and what our goal is. Are we shooting natural light? Studio lights? Indoor with a couple 100-200W LEDs? What lenses? Since I can take my time, I'm absolutely shooting log and doing color work in post. So I wouldn't even consider the SOOC question for this scenario 🙂
For $5k I'm probably using a Z Cam F6. The ergonomics, sensitivity, and wireless control are huge, and the color is fine.
For $10k the C500mkII looks pretty good. My friend just got a pair and loves them, but I haven't tried it personally.

Yeah I heard the original question, and I think that while the posts diving into complex grading are fascinating and useful to those of us who do post, I know that getting good color SOOC is a separate question.
One big point about your question is that it doesn't break down by manufacturer. Not all REDs look the same, not all Sonys look the same, etc. I think the Sony FX6 looks fine, but I dislike the FS7. Also, most cameras have different profiles. Sometimes, there is greater  difference between profiles on the same camera, than between normal/natural/standard/default/whatever profiles on many different cameras. And even within a profile, you'll have totally different results based on how many controls you leave on auto (such as WB) and your lens.
SOOC and minimal grading are completely different. SOOC excludes log profiles, for one thing.
There is budget as well. Best SOOC ever? Alexa 35, probably. Under $10k? C500mkII gets my vote. Under $2k? Nikon Z6 is solid. Are you including lenses in your budget? I like the color out of my Canon L 24-105 better than that of my Canon 50 1.8 (tested on Sony A7rII). Though I have also used terrible lenses for specific scenes, specifically to make them less appealing.
If you want a specific answer or even a specific discussion, ask a more specific question because your original question is extremely open ended--which is fine to start with! But it's probably more useful and interesting to narrow the parameters a bit.

Yeah I heard the original question, and I think that while the posts diving into complex grading are fascinating and useful to those of us who do post, I know that getting good color SOOC is a separate question.
One big point about your question is that it doesn't break down by manufacturer. Not all REDs look the same, not all Sonys look the same, etc. I think the Sony FX6 looks fine, but I dislike the FS7. Also, most cameras have different profiles. Sometimes, there is greater  difference between profiles on the same camera, than between normal/natural/standard/default/whatever profiles on many different cameras. And even within a profile, you'll have totally different results based on how many controls you leave on auto (such as WB) and your lens.
SOOC and minimal grading are completely different. SOOC excludes log profiles, for one thing.
There is budget as well. Best SOOC ever? Alexa 35, probably. Under $10k? C500mkII gets my vote. Under $2k? Nikon Z6 is solid. Are you including lenses in your budget? I like the color out of my Canon L 24-105 better than that of my Canon 50 1.8 (tested on Sony A7rII). Though I have also used terrible lenses for specific scenes, specifically to make them less appealing.
If you want a specific answer or even a specific discussion, ask a more specific question because your original question is extremely open ended--which is fine to start with! But it's probably more useful and interesting to narrow the parameters a bit.

...with a lot of makeup, lighting, and color correction.
Definitely true, which is why I also said that I don't believe any mainstream brand is objectively better than others. Most of the people posting here have said that in one way or another.

More than $1k if you buy used.  I saw one for <2k and almost got it, but that was when I was still waiting to see what BM would announce. I actually prefer the non-pro even for the same price because NP batteries are better for me. I use the app for monitoring so I don't want the monitor and don't need SDI. BNC timecode and more F buttons would be nice, though.
IIRC F6 low jello is a crop mode, right? On the M4 it was a separate full sensor readout with considerably more noise. I rarely used it because it hurt the image too much--that MFT sensor definitely had no DR or noise to spare.

This is true.  However, people are also trying to share their experience with you.
For example, if you said that you were hammering in nails with your camera and it was really damaging the camera and you asked how to make the camera tougher, people would reply telling you to buy a hammer.  
Is this answering the question?  No.  Are people trying to help you?  Absolutely.
You have asked a series of questions over the last month or so about technical aspects of cameras that don't have any relevance to real-world shooting except in very very specific scenarios, and when people reply you haven't given any information suggesting that you actually face these scenarios in your own work, you just seem to want to discuss things like these real-world considerations don't actually exist.
For example - do you know what the best ways are to get great skin tones?
Shoot someone with great skin tones Shoot someone with good skin tones and good makeup Shoot someone with not terrible skin tones and really good makeup Shoot someone with great makeup Shoot someone with good skin tones and ok makeup and do digital retouching in post Shoot someone with not terrible skin tones and good makeup and do good digital retouching in post Shoot someone with ok makeup and do really great digital retouching in post Notice that the camera didn't factor into that equation?
I'm sure that you understand that make-up is a pretty big deal on a movie set, but you might not be aware of how much work goes into skin tones and retouching in post.  They say that getting the skin tones right is about half of all colour grading effort.
Here's a video showing the state-of-the-art tools that are dedicated to this - these tools wouldn't exist if there wasn't demand for it......  this is the tools in Baselight which is the main Resolve competitor.
 

My thoughts exactly.
Actually, all I want is a Z Cam E2-F6 with faster readout, and if I'm really making wishes then I want Resolve to include Zlog2 color management. Other than that, the F6 is my perfect camera, because it sort of has what you describe: a tiny menu screen, builtin low latency USB/Wifi monitoring, and plenty of 1/4-20's.

I've never used AF. Most shoots there are 2 people on camera, so someone pulls focus with a wireless unit. And I can pull focus for myself if not.
Any log format that is supported by Resolve's color is ideal. I haven't used everything out there so I'm not going to try to give brand generalizations. Honestly the NX1 was the camera that gave me the best results SOOC, but I can't recommend a discontinued series from 10 years ago. The S5 works really well for me now. The XT3 was great, but if I recall correctly there were issues with FLog in Resolve for a while, so I almost always used HLG and was happy with it.
I haven't shot with any modern blackmagic cameras, but I from what I see in other people's footage, they have the best color with their end-to-end color management. Again, that's not personal experience.
If you need to get good Rec709 color SOOC I'm not the best reference, as everything I've ever shot has had time for coloring.
Another factor that maybe I should state explicitly is that Resolve is the only color software that I like. Assuming you're using a decently nice camera with color management, good software will speed up the color process more than the difference between Sony FX6 and Canon C70.

I've never used AF. Most shoots there are 2 people on camera, so someone pulls focus with a wireless unit. And I can pull focus for myself if not.
Any log format that is supported by Resolve's color is ideal. I haven't used everything out there so I'm not going to try to give brand generalizations. Honestly the NX1 was the camera that gave me the best results SOOC, but I can't recommend a discontinued series from 10 years ago. The S5 works really well for me now. The XT3 was great, but if I recall correctly there were issues with FLog in Resolve for a while, so I almost always used HLG and was happy with it.
I haven't shot with any modern blackmagic cameras, but I from what I see in other people's footage, they have the best color with their end-to-end color management. Again, that's not personal experience.
If you need to get good Rec709 color SOOC I'm not the best reference, as everything I've ever shot has had time for coloring.
Another factor that maybe I should state explicitly is that Resolve is the only color software that I like. Assuming you're using a decently nice camera with color management, good software will speed up the color process more than the difference between Sony FX6 and Canon C70.

Yes, 10 bit log is extremely flexible, so you can get similar color from most modern cameras. I say modern because sensors are better now than they used to be.
My one extra note is that I find that the most important thing is to nail your white balance. Many cameras that I have used look way better if you manually set them to a white balance setting, rather than balance to a card. My Panasonic S5 in particular looks terrible balanced to a card. So I always shoot 5600K and correct it later. If you do correct it in post, it's best to use color management and do the corrections in linear gamma. If I recall, my old NX1 actually looked great balanced to a the same white card. So it definitely varies by camera.
I love Fuji's color. I'm not overjoyed by Panasonic's SOOC Rec709 (but am happy with VLog when I have at least 2 minutes to color it). But in a broad sense and with possible exceptions, I am happy with any camera made after 2018 that cost more than $2k at launch. I really disliked older Sonys and Panasonics, but that is no longer true.
Speaking specifically about color, being able to use Resolve color management is huge. It is faster and better than using LUTs to move between color spaces. Other than that, the only real consideration is the time/quality ratio. How fast can I get to the image I want, or, on the other end, how fast can I get to an image that can be turned in by the deadline. Like you mentioned in your first sentence, images can be made similar, but the question is how quickly.
Speaking about the entire system, compatibility is my #1 concern. Lenses, batteries, audio, rigs--these all have to work together. I've put a lot of effort into things like "put a right angle XLR on the bottom of a boom pole so that it can be set down without damaging the cable." All my lenses are EF. All of them have 77mm filter threads. That sort of thing matters a lot.
Typically, I will do plenty of tests ahead of time. I'll build color nodes in Resolve before the project begins, so I know what settings to use on set, and roughly what I'll do in post. If you have that kind of preparation, the camera used does not matter as much.
I think 10 years ago, Canon reigned. The 5D3 was much better than Panasonics and Sonys back then. Nowadays I don't think it holds anymore. But that's all subjective.

I hope they enable using the 6K Pocket EVF with the USB-C EVF port. From what I've seen it connects to the Pockets with USB anyways. Would be a nice affordable alternative to the new EVF.
A side screen for menus/settings is fine, but having it be 4" seems unnecessary, at least if the body is bigger than it has to be to accommodate it. Hopefully there is a way to easily switch it on/off so it's not sucking battery all the time.
I'd much prefer the camera be cheaper and smaller, with maybe a 2" screen for menus, and then they sell a separate 4" monitor with some buttons on it (like a C200 or FS/FX screen), with some 1/4-20's for mounting hardware, that connects to that USB-C EVF port. Or maybe leave the buttons off so it can be cheaper, then refresh the Video Assists and let them have the controls.
The new Micro Panel looks nice.

There's some statistics up to 2019 here - https://stephenfollows.com/digital-vs-film-on-hollywood-movies/

There's almost no way that they're pushing enough data to actually require 16 lanes of NVMe, even if it's only at gen 3 speeds.  Each lane of gen3 is able to carry about 1 gigabyte/8 gigabits per second.  From what I read elsewhere, 12K at Q0 on the existing UMP is just over 1.1 gigabytes/second.  Even the upcoming 17K should, then, be kicking out under 2 gigabytes/second (or 2 out of 16 lanes).  That's also assuming gen3 speeds.  If it's gen4 or gen5, it's even more overkill.  A single modern high-performance NVMe drive can write at around 3,000MB/s. 
Anyway, to get to 8GB with off-the-shelf modules, it would either need to be 4 4GB drives in a raid 1 or 4 2GB drives in raid 0.  At $1600, they could afford the former, but I'd bet money that they're doing the latter and pocketing the money.
 
I'll hope it does drive them down, then - every so often, I get a fever and once again start leering at a used Monstro 8K VV and thinking which of my current cameras to sell/trade toward it - given that they're only about $6k used (in good condition) these days (well, probably about $7.5k after getting all the accessories that are needed for it to even function).  Then I go read stories from small shops who needed to send in their RED for service (warranty or pay for repair out of warranty) and it's like a cold splash of water on the face (if you're not a major studio, expect long waits and bad communication).  But slowly, the GAS starts creeping in again...  "But it'll match the FOV of your GFX 100 II better...  How often can a camera fail anyway?  Well, it's a RED, but... how often?  Really?"
Well, that and the fact that I get really confused when I start trying to figure out which accessories are compatible with which cameras.  Since I don't have much in the way of PL glass, I'd want an EF mount.  Can a DSMC mount work with DSMC 2?  Does it need to be a special mount for the bigger sensor?  Does a freakin' lens mount cost that much?  USED?

Anyway, if those were to drop to $4k, I'd probably be unable to stop myself from trading some other stuff in toward it.  
 
I'm less optimistic about this.  My guess is that most of the people buying it will be people already firmly embedded in the BMD ecosystem and thus other brands' cameras won't drop too much in price.  Other than "has BRAW," nearly all of the other features of Pyxis have been present on the E2-F6 since 2019.  Even after the price dulled any initial excitement, it got even duller when I remembered that I'd be trading the external monitor to record raw for an external transmitter for the image when on set.  I always forget that BMD app control is just a control surface with no image preview.
 

Agreed. It's probably feasible to swap mounts between Pyxis models, but voids the warranty. BM probably manufactures the models exactly the same, with just that part different. Conceivably, they have some annoying firmware difference to prevent electronics from working, but that would be so difficult for them to manage for FW updates.

Wow, what a set of releases! The Resolve 19 presentation was pretty amazing. The audio panning tool in particular looked pretty sweet. Overall, I find the Fairlight tab to be rather unusable. Compared to Reaper, it's much harder to see large projects particularly compared to Reaper's amazing keyframe visualization and track parenting. So I'm probably going to stick with Reaper for large audio projects.
And then on the visual side, a whole slew of AI based tools that look like a lot of fun. Some of the tracking tools looked pretty great, as do the new color plugins.
Ursa Cine looks like a pretty sweet camera. I like the USB EVF solving both power and data at once, without proprietary connectors. I wish/hope that there can be an open standard for it, so other manufacturers can make interchangeable EVFs in that system. I can't say I'm that enthusiastic about the data rates required for 12k, but I guess it's the future. The footage looks good in any case. I'm glad they switched back to a larger, 5" 1080p screen, up from the rather smaller and lower res one on the UMP models. The screen on the old Ursa Mini 4K was nice to use. I'm a little confused on the media drives. I can't tell if they are off the shelf, user-replaceable M.2 cards (that's how it looks) or something more proprietary (which is what Grant Petty implied verbally). I'm intrigued by the USB ports along the right side, for "3rd party accessories".
The Pyxis looks alright. I'm a little disappointed that they kept the 6k sensor from the previous camera, but it's what I expected. Keeping the accessory ecosystem from the Ursa Cine is great. I love the interchangeable side panel. For $3k, I don't think I would buy it over the Z Cam F6, with the main points being higher frame rate, H.265 options, interchangeable lens mount with eND option, and builtin wireless monitoring. I think the points in BM's favor are the screen, physical buttons, XLR connector, color, SDI, and timecode. Of those, color is the only one that I really care about and I don't know if it's that much better to justify the other cons.

S5 is definitely "better" image quality than GH5 imo, and that certainly factors into my choices, but technology is at a point where pretty much everything looks pretty good. So if all my lenses were MFT, or if GH5 had some other feature that I really needed, I'd be happy with GH5 as well. Better photographers than I might have a more nuanced look at photo ergonomics, but to me all hybrids are roughly the same amount of pain when rigged for a narrative shoot.
For my amateur photography, every camera I touch reminds me that the NX1 was more comfortable 😞
The S5 has a great APS-C crop mode, which will pair nicely with your Sigma 18-35. You're already in the system, no pressure at all!

S5 is definitely "better" image quality than GH5 imo, and that certainly factors into my choices, but technology is at a point where pretty much everything looks pretty good. So if all my lenses were MFT, or if GH5 had some other feature that I really needed, I'd be happy with GH5 as well. Better photographers than I might have a more nuanced look at photo ergonomics, but to me all hybrids are roughly the same amount of pain when rigged for a narrative shoot.
For my amateur photography, every camera I touch reminds me that the NX1 was more comfortable 😞
The S5 has a great APS-C crop mode, which will pair nicely with your Sigma 18-35. You're already in the system, no pressure at all!

Thanks so much guys! I really dig that image quality isn't really a factor in your answers - can't really go wrong either way so that takes off the pressure. I will ofc compare recording time limits and see what works better for me and have a thought about ergonomics as you pointed out!
Definitely! I work in post-production and it's mainly unscripted TV run and gun...natural light all the way expect for interviews. So if I were to talk my way into a shoot MFT would not be the way to go. Can't believe I didn't even think about this!
The GH5 was only because I already had the sigma+metabones but when I saw the S line price I was like hold up now might be the time to jump to the S line. Specially because I am only shooting for myself now so I can ease my way into the system without too much pressure 🤑 and for my personal work which is the plan for the next couple of months, I like to use the Super Takumars, Helios and I just got a Canon FD so there's really nothing stopping me from making the change.
Thanks a lot guys!!

My opinion is to go for an S5. I got one a few months ago for about $800. That opinion is partially based on having owned and primarily shot on a MFT Z Cam for the past 3(?) years and using APS-C NX1/XT3 for the 5-6 years before that. I primarily shoot scripted narrative projects, and nature photography. The increased dynamic range and noise performance of the S5 over the GH5 is definitely a factor for me. Actually, for $800, I can't recommend the S5 enough, if you don't need AF. Absolutely wonderful camera for me.
However, my choice of camera is primarily lenses, while you specifically said lenses are not a factor. I have many beautiful vintage photo lenses, and in general I've had an easier time finding modern, high quality FF lenses than APS-C or MFT lenses. It's hard to find a small sensor combo that matches the price/performance of (used) Sigma Art, Canon L, or Zeiss Milvus--keeping in mind that, for my use, autofocus is never in play. (The 18-35 is a standout lens, a notable exception to the generalization I just made)
If you are set on real cinema lenses, a smaller sensor might be better. There are plenty of Super 35 options to choose from, and honestly the budget FF lenses (Meike, DZOFilm, etc) are optically rather lackluster in my opinion. If my plans this year go through and I shoot a lot more narrative content, I might look for a Super 35 cinema camera, because at that point we would rent high quality cinema lenses, and there are a lot of those available for Super 35.
I don't know much about the S1, but the reason I got an S5 is that it weighs a lot less than the S1. It would be less fun to take an S1 on a backpacking trip.

Awesome! Have fun and good luck! I am also making a short film tomorrow. Definitely looking forward to hearing about how well your shoot went!

Script and partial shortlist written. Ready for action tomorrow night when wife is out, so hopefully no interruptions!

Thanks, I appreciate that. I have a running thread on Fred Miranda soliciting submissions and so far the response has been good. To encourage participation I've been buying the Arduino boards on Amazon and having them shipped directly to members who have cameras I would like tested. Going forward my hope with the crowdsourcing is that the group interested in these kinds of measurements would be enthusiastic about having their own reliable method for measuring readout speeds whenever they need, so that the small investment in the Arduino board wouldn't be an impediment. Time will tell if that turns out to be true.

Here's my list
https://outerspaceoatmeal.com/tools/RollingShutterComparison.html
You can add or not , up to you. Most of my numbers come from DVXuser, CineD, and a couple from other primary sources where the test method has been shared. Global shutter cameras are self explanatory so I link to the product page.
Yeah I mean it's ideal to always do it the same way, I'm just not sure many people will buy a specific arduino to fill out this table.
Difference with DR is that it's extremely subjective. Rolling shutter is not. People can measure it incorrectly-- which they can do whatever their intended test method is -- but they can't measure it correctly and then arrive at a different conclusion than someone else.
Edit: And to be clear, measuring signal to noise ratio is also objective.