Phil A

The A7 II is not good for video (moire & aliasing), the A7s II and A7r II are where it's at and those exceed your camera budget by 50%.

First I'd like to thank you all a lot for your input. I really value the different ideas and think it's not even surprising to see how many different perspectives there are, we have access to a lot of good tools that can work.

20 hours ago, jnorman34 said:

I used a GH4 for about 2 years and really loved the quality.  however, hauling around a DSLR system with tripod, head and slider was just too much for travel purposes.  so, when I took a trip to phoenix to shoot a short doc about Taliesin West, I picked up a gopro hero 4 and a handheld 3-axis gimbal (zhiyun Z1 Pround). 

I have read up about GoPros a whole while ago but an action camera doesn't really fit my needs. I might actually pick something up for snorkeling instead of an underwater housing, seeing as how typically want wides for that, but I wouldn't want to use it as my only system as I don't want the fisheye "all in focus" look for my complete stuff but would use quite some tele.

20 hours ago, Cinegain said:

Get a LX100. As a famous Dutch designer would say: 'It's the art of leaving away stuff'. It's a no excuse camera 'oh, I'm just going on a short stroll; no need to bring all that gear' -> oppertunity of a lifetime has to be taken with your smartphone! 'Not sure what lens to use... this one... or this one... argh, the choice!' -> one lens to rule them all! No choices, no hassle, no excuses!

Sure. I get you want a little bit more freedom and flexibility too, because in the end the lack of choice can still be restricting and compromising quality and look. Well, what other lovely addition to a Panasonic camera than another one? The GH4? You'd probably get a 12-35mm f/2.8 OIS with that. Or scratch that and get either the E-M5II or E-M1. Get one as a kit with the excellent 12-40mm f/2.8 PRO. People have shot impressive stuff with those combos! The in-body stabilization! You can now adapt vintage primes (e.g. HELIOS 44-2 58mm f/2) or a SLR Magic Hyperprime CINE 25mm T0.95 for example and shoot stabilized footage! Olympus glass is of great quality. The 75mm f/1.8 is a real treat! Get yourself a Cullmann Magnesit Copter mini tripod and a RatRig V-slider Dual Mini. Don't even take much more and just focus on experiencing instead of carrying stuff around. Especially if it's web content, then you've got to deal with compression of your hosters anyways. And people will watch the footage on their smartphone or tablet. So here you are with the most sick quality setups in the end making hardly any difference and the average viewer who's not a pixel peeper seemingly only cares about the content! Damn you average viewer! When does good become good enough?

... just one way you could do things of course...

Thank you for the idea with the LX100. I've never had that on my radar but I think then I'd directly go for the GH4. I think I might have some unreasonable grudge against that camera and I can't even really put my finger on the why. People complain about the uncinematic, videoish, digital look... which I think is totally fine for what I would do. It's the weakest system when it comes to low light though because even the BMPCC when using the dedicated MB Speedbooster seems to have more lattitude there.

In photography I have 3 clear needs which I cover which is the 35-50mm and 75-100mm area with f/1.4 or f/1.8 lenses, that's why a compact won't be able to replace all my gear. I think I shouldn't have put the "fun" into the subject because I didn't want to imply that I'm looking for as small as possible, I don't mind lugging a backpack with camera, a few lenses, tripod and filters, it's just that I can't justify a Ursa Mini or Red One level system where camera + 1 lens + 1 battery is already like 5kg (with the related bigger tripod, bigger fluidhead/ballhead, etc.).

19 hours ago, Snowfun said:

Do you enjoy the process as much as the product? I have an A7s and it's superb for aurora shooting. But it's "horrid" to use (with Shogun and v-loks). The BMPCC on the other hand is something I rather enjoy using. It's simple and elegant and gives you something you can play with (ie grade etc.) back home. And you will be carrying it with you at all times. To me, a lot of the enjoyment is the process - the product isn't the sole or even primary goal.

I clearly do, I'd say it's 50/50. I'm also willing to work around the gear if the result is worth it but I hate when I feel like the gear actually works against me. I enjoy shooting landscape stuff with graduated NDs while on sticks, long exposure photography, etc. so I'm not always on the run. Even the editing is part of the enjoyable process for me, I have no deadlines so I can spend hours tinkering with my material until it's finalized. I mainly shoot to satisfy my own expectations, which is also why I'm surely considering higher end gear than I would necessarily need.

I've seen your polar light video that you've posted in the "Shooting" section. Incredible what today's consumer gear can achieve, isn't it? I can see why you would say the BMPCC is more enjoyable than the A7s... there's just less to fiddle and configure. It's more limited but has what is necessary.

19 hours ago, fuzzynormal said:

This doesn't fit any of your image quality criteria, but since you said the word "fun" I thought I'd mention the EM5II.  In no way does it exceed the IQ capabilities of other cameras, but I just can't help enjoying shooting with it.

Fun for me is being inconspicuous while being able to shoot cool shots on the fly.  (A camera with a wrist strap)  What Snowfun mentions above is a great point.  

Regardless, the EM5II appeal is an sort of an intangible thing.  I'm not even that fond of the menu system, but I do like using the camera.

I've shot corporate gigs with it next to a GH4.  For web delivery I felt like it cut together fine; more than fine, really.

And the things you can do with video and that 5-axis stabilizer, that's fun too.  You could almost forgo taking a tripod, depending on the type of footage you're trying to get.  I think it now sells for $800 new.  I also have 3 vintage Pentax A110 prime lenses for $75 and I think they look really great with the EM5II.  Of course, numerous other lens options exist.  Getting good, fast, and cheap glass mounted to a speed booster will give one impressive low-light ability too.

If that's a huge priority, I'd consider the A7s. The older version used is $1500.

Most cams shoot pretty good video these days.  If you think a particular strength of a camera, such as stabilization or low light, is a perfect fit, then invest in that capability.  Otherwise, seems like you could just stick with what you have and do just fine.

What is your perception regarding the footage when you have to grade it? I had the impression that the EM5 II really struggles with blowing highlights, even more so than the GH4 and NX1. The IBIS of the Olympus' is obviously next level, even better than the one in the A7 IIs, but I don't want to sacrifice too much image quality for ease of use. I guess low light would be roughly on par with the GH4?

You're right, in the end every camera has typically roughly 1 outstanding strength and 1 weakness. So it's about chosing the best compromise. I guess I'm searching the forum's blessing that my train of thought is correct and I'm not making some fundamentally flawed plan. Everyone I know here only shoot photography and not video/movies so it's hard to spar the thoughts against them.

15 hours ago, cantsin said:

 

For really good travel videos shot with the Blackmagic Pocket, check out Gunther Machu's work:

IMHO, there is no other camera this size that comes close in video image quality. However: The Pocket is not a convenient travel camera, since you need to have IR cut filters in front of the lens, need to carry more batteries (and have opportunity to charge them), need to carry higher capacity SD cards (although 256 Sandisk Extreme Pros are now much more affordable at around 150 Euro, and will hold about 1 hour CinemaDNG footage or 150 minutes ProRes HQ), need to have external audio recording equipment (unless you use the Ohrwurm2 mic), and have a very limited choice of stabilized lenses (only Panasonic MFT zooms with no real wide-angle coverage on the BMPCC) and can't shoot handheld without a stabilizer/rig. An LX100 or Olympus EM (with its uniquely good in-body stabilization) clearly beats it in terms of shooting convenience.

Of course I've seen his clips before, too. I really like them. What I think is interesting is that he switched to the A7s II for the newest videos and it's really obvious in the look of his movies. It's more modern and clean but I think also his BMPCC footage is really good and more "analytic" than most of it. His "Paintings of Umbria" video ( https://vimeo.com/103172085 ) is one of the main reasons why I ever considered the BMPCC. The dynamic range of that clip with the foreground and the clouds is what I love in landscape photography and I (wrongly?) attributed that to the combination of BMPCC dynamic range and the grade-ability of the high bit depth recorded material. On the other hand I could replicate that with graduated ND filtration and any camera, but yes, I'm deeply impressed by that video.

14 hours ago, Liam said:

I think I'd heard the rx100iv is a stop or two better in low light than the lx100, plus it has better slow mow, log, and the 5 minute 4k limit doesn't sound like a dealbreaker for you, with the great 1080p it has. Plus it's a little smaller than the lx100.

The pocket is awesome. With a speedbooster and boosting the raw maybe, it's not bad in low light at all (or at least meets the 1600iso minimum requirement for sure). I do think the 1080p from it is more detailed than the d750. Some people have used screengrabs from the bmpcc video as stills. So depending, that could maybe cover both bases as well. I just saw a really cool test with a tool in resolve to get great high speed slow motion out of a blackmagic camera by messing with the 24fps. If you want to go that route, slow mo might not be a downside of the pocket very much either.

The panasonic gm~ are pretty cool too. Basically super portable gh3s (as far as image quality) with better low light by a stop or two. Not the MOST detailed, but nice. Not sure about using a monitor with it either

Thanks for the input. I guess I'd really gravitate towards the RX100 iv over the LX100 but as I said, I don't actually want to replace my whole system with a compact. On the other hand the RX100 iv could be a good B-cam to a possible A7r II as they somewhat share the image characteristics (if you ignore the part coming from the lenses) and it could replace the NX100 for the slow motion. There's also cheap underwater housings so I guess a A7r II + 2 lenses + RX100 iv (+ UW housing) could also make sense.

I'll think some more about all the valuable input you guys gave me and also make some pro & con list. I'll also do short playlists of my favorite content of each system and show it to my significant other and see how she feels about it without all the techy sentiments in head.

The Samyang has a "real" manual focus, I don't know the MFT lenses in question but they might be focus-by-wire which many find less desireable.

Dear forum,

you will think this is another „which camera should I buy“ thread… and it is, but bear with me, it might get better. My personal finance minister agreed to me throwing money at my problems so here we go. To make it a bit more legible I’ll segment my extra-long wall of text.
 

My motivation to revamp my equipment:

Due to logistical reasons I’m standing in front of the task to minimize AND optimize my equipment. I’m normally travelling once every 1 to 2 months for work and/or private pleasure and used to shoot a lot of pictures in my spare time on these trips, but since a while I’m doing more and more video things. I have already shot photography with a lot of different camera systems, currently I’m using Nikon with the D750 and it fulfills every photography dream I could have BUT the video side isn’t satisfying the gearhead in me (there I said it, it’s not really a NEED but a WANT) since I tried the movie recording of the Samsung NX1.
Seeing how we have at least 3 interesting trips lined up for the next 6 months I’d like to get my stuff together so I can actually finalize and if necessary “learn” the equipment before we fly to Spain in March.

What do I want shoot:

Directly up front: I have no ambitions to ever get anything broadcasted or cinema or whatever, it is web-delivery only and therefore the quality horizon is 1080p delivery via VIMEO / YouTube. It’s mainly travel / landscape / urban lifestyle imagery so it’s shooting the landscape while traveling a country, exotic beaches, cultural sightseeing like temples in Thailand, night market type of things, etc. Due to the nature of business trips, a lot of the things happen in the evening and obviously it’s more of a travel documentary type shooting, i.e. I won’t be able to light anything and have to rely on practical lighting.

Thanks to travel limitations on luggage I will be limited to roughly one system (or two really compact systems) with ~2-4 lenses, external monitor, tripod/monopod with head and the regular accessories like NDs, Grad NDs. I wouldn’t mind spending on a small gimbal stabilizer once the compact ones like the Beholder, Nebula, etc. had their kinks ironed out, compensating for the fact that I probably will never be able to lug a slider, jib, etc around. This also makes 4k a nice to have as it lets me fake slider moves (granted, without the desirable parallax effects), punch in from medium to light tele, etc.

In addition we do quite some food photography which we would like to extend towards shooting short clips for our Instagram feed (stop laughing!) and blog. Obviously nearly every camera would be ok for this as we can light and repeat to our hearts’ desire so this is only a side comment and I have the slow motion for that covered with the NX1.

What cameras did I consider:

I’ve tried hands-on with some cameras (D750, D5300, NX1, 5D II, 5D III, G7) and did hours over hours of VIMEO research but man is a lot of stuff badly graded, getting away from the computer you’re suddenly shocked our world isn’t actually all Osiris M31 teal-orangey or FilmConvert grainy, soft paleness. I also graded some test footage I found online but that was of varying quality and some had botched white balance, etc.

I love the Samsung NX1; I clearly appreciate its image, it’s super easy to get nice colors and skin tones out of it. It’s modern, pleasing and sharp which I personally feel suits this kind of footage well. BUT there are multiple reasons why I’d rather not stick with it which are the limited low light capabilities in combination with no speedbooster availability, the fact that it doesn’t work with my field monitor (SmallHD can’t say if firmware incompatibility will ever be fixed [I have that one already], VideoDevices can’t even say if the PIX-e are compatible at all and it seems no one else makes a 5” that stacks up to those two) and to a very minor point the fact that the system can’t cover the autofocus lenses I’d like to use for photography. I might keep it as a B-cam seeing how cheap I got it, especially how it could cover 120fps easily, but I’d rather have another main system.

I’ve seen clips made with the BMPCC like the ones from Jonathan Haring (https://vimeo.com/99501007 or https://vimeo.com/98293797 ) with really good sharpness and nice colors but most of clips out there are just too soft for my taste, I have the feeling so much footage of the BMPCC is over the top soft because it’s “cinematic” and intentionally looking retro in a low quality kind of way. While the BMPCC is no low light beast, the combination of f/1.4 lenses plus speedbooster and malleable files would make it easily work I think. I’d replace it or mate it with a BMMCC as soon as that would be available for the 60p and global shutter. My main concern is that the 1080p Super16 bayer sensor doesn’t actually give me better resolution and inherent sharpness than the current D750, the colors are obviously top. Obviously these aren’t hybrid systems so I would add something compact on the side like a Fuji X-T1 with a 35mm f/1.4 or perhaps even just stick with my X100s. 

Of course nothing leads around considering Sony A-series when looking for a hybrid system at the moment. I’m a bit surprise how the high frame rate capabilities lack so far behind the Samsung in regards to having to apply additional crop for the read out but on the other hand the low light capabilities are everything one might ever dream of. Good low light, respectable dynamic range. Quite pricey but there are enough advantages that I wouldn’t mind to spend the money. Probably the worst offender when it comes to awful grading on VIMEO, it seems most of the really pleasing (e.g. Nomads of Mongolia) and well done footage isn’t actually done in S-LOG and therefore already gives away a lot of dynamic range again (which most viewers anyway don’t seem to actually pay attention to). I’d probably give the A7r II the advantage over the A7s II because the only thing the A7s II does better is even more extreme low light above ISO 12800 while the A7r II has the two crops for 4k, PDAF and higher resolution stills.

For this kind of shooting I ruled out the Canon 5D III with Magic Lantern because I can’t repeat moments, it has only the mediocre LCD screen and it’s just too expensive for what it does in my opinion (still nearly 2000€ used here) even though the colors are beautiful. I’d prefer to not have to tinker around with the system.

I know that the Panasonic GH4 is theoretically a strong contender, especially with speedbooster or the Voigtländer f/0.95 lenses, but I just don’t know. I feel no magic around that system. G7 is out because of the HDMI limitations.

Last but not least I’ve of course considered the Canon C100 II or Sony FS5 but I feel like they’re not ideal for my plans as they’re already a bit bigger than the other systems while needing a separate photography equipment. They’re also less stealthy as they’re easier recognized as camcorders while directly stretching the budget thin without giving.

I’ve tried to separate what I want (everything!) into what I need and what I just would like to have.

Need to have:
- detailed and sharp 1080p (as end result)
- 50p/60p
- Good internal recording, I don’t want to go extern and then mix external & internal in post
- small form factor (C100/FS5 would stretch it already)
- clean 1080p out over HDMI for field monitor
- acceptable low light quality (light level equivalent to  f/1.4 with 1/50 at ISO1600 is minimum necessity, clean higher ISO is better)

Nice to have:
- 10bit
- 4k
- 100p/120p
- EVF
- Shoots pictures so I can stick to one system
- cheapo underwater housing / EWA-marine for snorkeling available

I feel like the Sony A7r II would actually be my best bet. It does 4k 8bit 4:2:0 internally, has IBIS, is acceptable until ISO6400/12800, can use a speedbooster in APS-C mode to get another stop of light, I can use the SmallHD501 with sidefinder on a cage as EVF for better stability (cradling camera against body), with the monitor straight on the tripod or go bare body for even less attention. It does amazing stills to replace even the D750 and thanks to the FF & APS-C 4k modes I could cover 4 field of view with only 2 lenses (e.g. FF 35mm & 85mm, APS-C 55mm & 125mm).
I have the feeling it’s the reading too many forums that makes me think the 4k 8bit is insufficient and I need the BMPCC’s grading latitude and the Sonys are abominations when it comes to color.

Tl;dr:
I need a lightweight system for videos and photography on documentary style traveling clips: BMPCC, A7sII/A7rII or something completely different?
Renting is out of the picture, I want to own the system. 

23 hours ago, andy lee said:

yes the video stream is clean of icons etc and its better than the compressed internal 4k @ 100mb/s , this 4k Pro Res is 744mb/s

I think what he meant wasn't the bitrate but how good is the actual quality of what comes out of the camera over HDMI. Obviously I could record any camera into ProRes at 10bit but that wouldn't turn the content that comes over the HDMI into 10bit if the camera only does 8bit.
A lot of cameras have a "low quality mode" when idling in live view and only go to full quality sensor read out when recording gets started (which deactivates the HDMI out on the G7).

Cool that you test these things, I think the G7 is still quite overlooked in the shadow of the GH4.

Well, seeing how it says #bmpc4k in the Vimeo link I would follow Elagabalus on Blackmagic Production Camera 4k :-P

1 hour ago, Ed Hecht said:

My curiosity is now piqued for Canon's red-headed stepchild, based on this thread. Regarding the Ursa Mini, take a look at the ratings at B&H:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1137314-REG/blackmagic_design_cinecamursam40k_ef_ursa_4k_digital_cinema.html

A whopping TWO stars from 23 reviews. Yikes!

That's the Ursa Mini 4k and not the Ursa Mini 4.6k he meant, totally different sensor. Also it was already discussed in some thread here that people would have known what they get into with the 4k sensor if they read up beforehand (e.g. Absolutely no low light latitude). The quality control complaints are a valid topic though.

It says

• Decode support for HEVC/H.265 QuickTime video in DaVinci Resolve Studio on Windows

so it's still not for all, but then you can get the dongle via eBay quite attractvely priced (300-400€). But surprised to see it come to Windows so quickly. 

I know. I meant 240fps 1080p in a high bitrate. 4k 60p like the 1DxII would also be neat.

If it's a "me too" product at Photokina it's dead on arrival. We have IBIS, 4K, 120p, etc ... if they want to get going they'll need stuff like internal 10bit 422 4k or RAW, 240fps, quite better high ISO... I see the micro43 as a problem until the new organic sensors come in a few yeats.

Where? Here the cheapest offer I found for A7r II is like 3500$ equivalent. 

It's just the general trend. If you look at the lenses that Sony, Canon and Nikon have recently announced it's to 99% either really really expensive or plain uninteresting. Luckily there's the Sigma ART series for those of us who want performing autofocus lenses and still be able to pay rent.

I'm feeling you. I love the NX1 but the system is dead and not compatible with accessories I have (and that will never be fixed) so I'll have to decide between color (Blackmagic, Canon) and 4k / HighFrameRate / LowLight (Sony)... or you have to be filthy rich and get a sherpa to carry your RED Weapon for you. I was really short away from just going meh and buying a A7rII or A7sII but then both have downsides and after test-grading some footage I downloaded I'm not sure Sony give me at my skill-level colors that make me happy.

I would want that too, but not even the FS5 has it and that's quite mucho dinero in comparison. I think 10bit will be "the next big thing" with cameras, seeing as how it's in the new Premium UHD standard, but probably in 2018.

It's consistent with the A7 line offering. I think many people had unrealistic expectations, this is a 1000$ consumer camera, they won't go and use it to kill off their premium line with it.

I don't think this is the camera they expect people to buy the G Master lenses for. 1000$ body, 2400$ 24-70 2.8?

You could also export to DNxHD to deliver in 1080p. You could upload it directly to VIMEO I heard or you could use whatever tool to move on and transcode it to ProRes.

If low-light is comparable, the only disadvantage against the A7r II in APS-C crop mode is the missing IBIS and the smaller EVF (1cm vs 1.3cm). That's probably something people could handle if it means saving 2000 €. Really interesting I have to say.

I never use a LUT, I'll check when I come home today if that might be the reason for the not working downscaling.

That works for me without a flaw, I use it quite a bit. Weird. Which version do you use?

Press release says it has S-Log including that gamma display assist of the A7sII... but camera has quite obviously no IBIS.

The new α6300 also offers S-Log gamma recording[x] for wide dynamic range shooting – approximately 14-stop latitude in S-Log3 gamma setting – and supports S-Gamut for a wider colour space. Both options allow for greater creativity for processing video post-production.

I use Rocky Mountain. It's free, easy and works, I don't ask for more.

Seeing how the sensor has 24 megapixel I wonder if the 20 megapixel 6k read-out with downscaling means additional crop over APS-C?

Unfortunately no comment regarding low light in the conference, I wonder if it's up to what the A7rII does in APS-C crop mode.

Edit: or is 20 megapixel the 16:9 crop of the 24 megapixel sensor?

Yes. Nikon can be adapted to nearly anything because it's the SLR system with the longest flange distance.

No, you can't mount original Canon EF-S lenses on a FullFrame Canon EOS camera, only 3rd party lenses.

So much to "Shipping in January"

The G7 / G70 also doesn't do HDMI out while recording so you can't use an external monitor, I see that as a major disadvantage compared to the GH4.