markr041

Chengdu Street on a Hot Night:

ISO 12,800 of course. And 4K 60p with only the Sony FE 24mm f2.8 lens.

Yes, no overheating. No breeze either.

The S5 also has a great B&W setting:

6 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

A7s2, no 4k60, bad AF- it loses focus, and it goes back and forth. Also the 4K 60p crop is in A7iV and A7 iii has none. @markr041

Muaha, I named the S5 as a no brainer better camera by large margins for video quality compared to the A7s2, no comparision hands done.

The pure cinema quality image is in the league of the best hybrids out there. Nikon Z9, Canon R5, you name it. Battery life no contest. IBIS no contest. Photos no contest. Ergonomics no contest. So your reply is really hillarious. I am usually on the mellow side and I like a lot of your insights, but this post of yours made me crack up and a bit. It does not make any sense in the given context imho. You can buy a used S5 for 800EUR. One could seem to be mad to buy an A7s2 instead, a  camera with a 4K codec worse than a M43 Lumix G7 in 24p HD. 🙂

I am not sure who this comment is addressed to or what it is doing in this thread. The thread is about the ZV E1, not the a7s2. I certainly agree that there is no reason to purchase an a7sii, or a Kodak Brownie camera for that matter.

If you want a contest of the ZV E1 against the Panasonic S5, which might be more relevant to this thread, then it is obvious that the AF and stabilization of the ZV E1 is better than that of the S5, and the S5 crops to APS-C in 4K60p, while the ZV E1 has no crop and no binning. The S5 AF is truly awful - I have used it extensively. The S5 IBIS for static shots is great and I agree its image quality is lovely, and it also does well in the dark, except for focusing. OK? Technology moves on.

If anyone doubts my credentials to comment on the S5, here is one of my S5 videos, which I like a lot:

5 minute limit for 4K in the specs.

This will overheat, just like the normal form-factor Powershots shooting 4K. As I experienced.

1 hour ago, Django said:

@markr041 So any overheating reports in any of your 4K60p endeavours ? Just checked the weather in Chengdu and its about to get pretty hot, good week ahead for stress test!

So far, no issue. I do feel the camera getting hotter as the ambient temperature increases. Temperatures did reach 80's F for one shoot (I was in Shandong too), but I never even received a heat warning. I do turn the camera off a lot between shots. This does tax the battery more, but I actually never exhausted a full battery either.

Visit to Confucius' birthplace:

3 minutes ago, techie said:

Is 4K 120 fps ready?

Not yet (looked), promised in June.

It's a travel camera, with kit lens:

At night:

In the morning:

54 minutes ago, Django said:

you sure about that? its my understanding there is a 2.3X crop only when shooting 4K120p in N-RAW as its 1:1 but h265 offers a binned no crop 4K120p. at least that's according to dpreview.. who yes have an actual Z8 review despite being officially deceased, strange times: https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-z8-initial-review

Thanks, you are correct, only crop in NRAW. But binned in H265.

The a7s iii (fx3) is not significantly cropped or binned for 4K 120p, right?

9 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

I think a possible contender might have dropped into your lap yesterday with the release of the Z8.

As well as the headline 8K it also does the 4K120 that you need and all internal RAW to boot.

Native Z mount macro lenses are a bit thin on the ground but the Z mount itself is the shallowest depth full frame mount so can have any macro lens that you currently have adapted to it.

As you are already invested in E-mount then the Megadap adapter will let you use those lenses with full AF control.

Price wise its well under your budget too.

Unfortunately, the Z8 andvZ9 crop 2.3X when shooting 4K 120p. The a7s iii (fx3) does not crop significantly at all in 4K 120p.

From China:

https://youtu.be/kgyfeNhLUKc

The small "rig" is effective; no one seems to care or notice, including the police who were guarding the large sqaure, where many protests had taken place in COVID days.

Here is a third test video I shot with the ZV E1, kit lens, and internal mics at 4K 60p in the sun at 70 degrees F:

1 hour ago, Evgeniy85 said:

Do you think that the mic quality is good enough on ZV-E1 to not use an external mic? 

That's an important question.  Two advantages of an external mic mounted on the camera over internal mics that are now negated by the ZV E1 are that you can choose directionality and conveniently use a deadcat to muffle wind.

So that then leaves pure audio fidelity, which might vary by sound source.

The ZV E1 videos I posted have recordings of various instruments including voice. So one can judge whether the audio is good enough for these sources (forward direction was used; uncompressed 16bit 48Hz audio was recorded internally).

1 hour ago, PannySVHS said:

I had done videowork with the A7S2, filming an exhibition in a large hall in daylight. Filming 400ISO, REC709, 4K. Material was full of artefacts compared to a humble Lumix GH4. Grading was tricky. Wouldnt recommend a A7s2, unless as a specialty camera for low light or good dynamic range in sunlight.

You get a modern 10bit camera, color marvel and lowlight beast for below 1000 EUR in used but very good condition. The Lumix S5.  @Django

S5 is great. But, an APS-C crop in 4K 60p and really bad AF - it loses focus, and it goes back and forth. Also the 4K 60p crop is in S5 ii and iix.

5 hours ago, Django said:

Yeah I had similar experience with the R6, learned how to get around overheat but it was a constant stress and I vouched never again but for casual shooting, travel etc was never really a concern. The ZV-E1 during my one hour test did shut off while in the menus with no warning which is what made me think initially the battery had died, but it was still on default normal temp setting. When set to high I didn't get an overheat warning but I didn't stress the camera much.

I've done some gigs in China with an FS7 + A7iii. Needless to say the A7 was the only camera used in public. Looks like you'll be able to put the ZV-E1 through its paces on your tip. Don't forget to grab a VPN beforehand so you can access google and such and hopefully give us some feedback! Safe travels.

Thanks.

One last one before leaving, in the sun and 70 F. The sun on the camera does warm it up. But it never got hot.

2 hours ago, Django said:

Interesting, you had some pretty harsh comments towards this camera (so did I tbh) but it sounds like you're warming up to it after trying it out!

The overheating is really dependent on the ambient temperature and how long you shoot. 65 degrees is pretty mild/cool and shooting 10s to 2mn clips with intervals isn't going to stress it much either. This camera might turn out to be ideal for your particular needs/shooting style but I'd be curious on your feedback on a warmer day (+75F). 

 

 

I agree that ambient temperature really matters - even the Sony manual reports shot durations by ambient temperature, which shows a real gradient. I would have wanted to shoot in a hotter setting, but I cannot control the weather!

I will be disappearing into China for 4 weeks tomorrow and I was seeking the smallest rig possible, which got me interested in the ZV E1. I had two days to try it out (delivered yesterday) - I will be facing some days in China in the 80's (F).

I was very pleasantly surprised by the camera. It is actually hard to go back to the "old" technology!

It is the fx30 + Sony 18-70 f4 lens versus the ZV E1 + Sony 28-60 lens. I prefer the 18-70 lens because it is faster and has a larger range, but that combo with the fx30 is just much larger. And an equivalent range and aperture lens on a full-frame is a monster. The compact 28-60 has good quality, though. I will take one faster prime for night, likely the small Sony FE 24 f2.8. That is fast enough for the ZV E1 sensor for any light.

A key advantage of the ZV E1 too is the built-in mic and deadcat - no need for an eternal mic mounted on the camera with a deadcat, which basically makes one look like a professional, but adds no real extra quality in audio. There were some folks at the park with cameras and mounted mics and they attracted attention. But no one cared about my tiny camera. I was also considering using the white version, so no one could possibly take me seriously.

I do have experience with overheating cameras - I shot 8K RAW video with the Canon R5 in summer before the firmware update that extended durations. In those days, the limit was 5 minutes! I could take similar videos as above. The most important trick was to turn off the camera after each shot (I did not do that with the ZV E1). Cameras now turn on instantly so this is not a real constraint, and one just gets used to shoot, turn off, see something, turn on and shoot, turn off. Shade is a friend, and so is a breeze, so when I walked with the camera from place to place I would swing my arm with the camera so air rushed by it like a fan. It all worked and became second nature. So I think I am prepared for the worst.

Btw, setting up the camera using the menus to suit my preferences (button/dial assignments etc.) took 10 minutes and the camera got hot - this really scared me. Others have reported this phenomenon (one person experienced the camera turning off). But it appears this says nothing about actually shooting with the camera. It is odd though.

And her it is, with the Dynamic Active stabilization demo at the end:

On 5/4/2023 at 8:06 AM, Django said:

So I just tried the ZV-E1 among other recent releases and here are some quick thoughts:

The build quality is better than I thought, nothing like the previous toy-like ZV cams and much closer to current A7 series, probably closest to A7C. Unit carries a certain weight so balances ok even with bigger (prime) lenses.

Very minimal design and button layout. While this may seem like a con its also a pro, kind of reminds me of Leica philosophy. Yes sometimes less is more. 

Set the shutter speed with the dial, aperture with the thumbwheel. Zoom with the rocker switch. Jump to stills/video/S&Q with the mode switch.

Just about everything else is done on the touchscreen like a smartphone. This is where things start to go a little sideways. The tiny 3" display and small fonts of the settings require precision, and the Sony menu and overlays don't help. But it is still more handy than most other A7 cameras with their limited touch capabilities. 

By default just about everything is automatic, like a smartphone. Basically point & shoot. And it works pretty well as in no major jarring issues. The AF is top notch, I tried several lenses including my F1.8 Zeiss and it didn't skip a beat.. smooth AF, pun intended. 

No surprise about the IQ, its an A7Siii sensor. Clear image zoom via the rocker switch is killer though, really like that function lifted from FX3. 

Tried the AI reframing stuff, didn't gel with it. Applies a huge crop.

Now about the overheat. After 15mn of shooting 4K60p indoors using lowest bitrate codec, the camera shut off with no warning. I thought the battery had died lol. That was on the normal level heat setting, so I put it into high and didn't run into the issue again but I was shooting short clips, changing lenses every 5 minutes and didn't spend more than an hour with the unit. I didn't have a fast card so wasn't even able to test out the higher bitrate settings or ALL-I. The camera did feel warm after about hour.

This pretty much confirmed my suspicions through the reviews that this camera is not fit for pro/extended use but rather casual shooting. I still find the price of 2799€ pretty bonkers for a camera with no EVF, single card slot, zero cooling, no mechanical shutter etc. But the IQ and snappiness is impressive.

That being said, it does make the A7SIII feel somewhat sluggish & dated. And all this tech in an A7 body would be nice. I guess its a good preview into what's to expect in upcoming higher end Sony bodies..

Very nice write-up. But one advantage of the ZV E1 is Dynamic Active Stabilization (DAS). It turns out that what is going on is that Sony is exploiting Clear Image Zoom technology, now much improved by AI - you can use all the tracking AF features with CIZ - CIZ is better on the E1 than on any fx camera (and the a7s iii) because of the AI (you lose tracking focus with ZIZ on all other cameras). Anyway, the DAS uses the augmented CIZ to zoom out to accomplish the crop. So the loss of resolution you expect from the crop is not there! Moreover you really can walk and shoot with the camera with no gimbal and it looks good  - much better than the simple crop you get using gyro stabilization in post, and a smoother result.

I will have a 4K 60P real video soon, which shows off the audio (live music), focus pulls, CIZ, DAS, and AF. Shot in 4K 60P HEVC 200 Mbps 10bit 422 Slog3. And I used the kit lens. First time with the camera. As you said, the images look as good as the fx3 (a7s iii), but the capabilities are really enhanced for using in the field.

And, in a 2.5 hours shooting with clips ranging from 10 seconds to two minutes exhausting 96 GB's of storage and 76% of the battery the camera never even got warm (65 degree (F) weather and humid).

3 minutes ago, SRV1981 said:

so that looks pretty dang good for video - how is it for photo?  What i've liked about fuji is that the in-camera emulations produce wonderful SOOC video and photo.

I don't take photos except with my cell phone (and they are pretty good - my cellphone uses AI, much more advanced than most cameras). The ZV E10 has lots of Picture Profiles and a large amount of customizations for each. The ZV E10 has the latest Sony "color science."

3 minutes ago, SRV1981 said:

How does that compare to an XT5?  Also curious if it is worth waiting for a7cII.  Whats the general opinion on 8bit vs. 10 bit when not color grading. much?

The a7cii will be full frame, and thus you are stuck with big lenses. I you want compact, you have to stick with smaller sensors. APS-C is a good compromise.

If you do not color grade, and you expose properly, no visible difference (someone will claim - color banding! - but it is shown this has more to do with compression issues). I have never seen it in the many videos I have shot in 8bit. Everything you see on TV and on your monitor is 8bit unless you go HDR.

I have never shot with a Fuji camera, so I cannot compare. The Sony ZV E10 has Sony's modern AF.

Here is an 8bit ZV E10 video with the tiny, cheap 16-50 Kit lens (OSS):

Actually (8bit!) HDR, but you will see the SDR version. Gyro stabilization available.

5 minutes ago, SRV1981 said:

Understood - well said.  I, personally, do not want to shoot Log and the original point I was making is that SOOC footage from Fuji was the preferred look to many I showed over the graded Log of other camera systems.  I am curious why people seem to prefer Fuji internal colors versus others.

If you are not going to shoot log, and want ooc colors, and a small camera for video, you might consider the Sony ZV E10 (not ZV E1). It is APS-C but smaller and lighter than the fx30. No IBIS or 10bit (which you do not need), but with Sony OSS lenses (there are plenty), handholding is fine. and, of course, those lenses are small. You have lots of controls of color and looks in the camera. Onboard audio and mics are very good (like the ZV E1).

Now, the question is, how are the log profiles of cameras different? And do those differences matter?

Here is what Fuji says, from their official data sheet, about their Flog2 profile:

"The gamma curve of F-Log2 follows the density of negative films, which has a high compatibility with post production technique fostered in the field of cinema film. It also configures 0% CV (Code value) as 95/10 bits and 18% gray CV as 400/10 bits. The gamut of F-log complies with ITU-R BT.2020 and realizes ease of cinema-like exposure and easy grading on the DCI.P3 color space." [emphasis mine]

Note the references to film and cinema. What does Fuji mean by that? Has anybody at Fuji seen actual movies?

If one is going to take advantage of the video capabilities of a camera, such as extended dynamic range (or exposure latitude) and the ability to obtain the color look you want, then you want to shoot using log profiles, 10bit color and 422 sampling. The SOOC looks are then irrelevant. 

One also has to distinguish between "pleasing" colors and accurate colors. Maybe people are hardwired to prefer yellow tints, or other color distortions? My view is to start with accurate color and then grade to taste (but who's taste?), with a nice base of 10bit or 12bit 422 color. I prefer to have colors I can choose, rather than what a camera manufacturer chooses, which will make my videos look like the hundreds (thousand's?) of others who don't grade.

13 minutes ago, Trek of Joy said:

The FX30 is a hybrid, just a heavily crippled one thanks to the exclusion of a mechanical shutter and competent photo modes - something the FX3 has. It's just the next a6000 camera sensor inside the recycled FX3 housing. But since it's so bad at taking photos, Sony will sell you another camera to do that job. With a readout speed superior to the current 24mp sensor, it could - and should - be a really great hybrid body. If it were a cine camera it would have more of the cine tools the FX6/9 have like waveforms, ND's and shutter angle. But it doesn't, so it isn't.

It's all marketing BS and Sony hitting it hard with the cripple hammer.

Cheers

Chris

Give it up. The fx30 and is not a hybrid. It is a "cinema" camera by Sony's own definition. By eliminating the totally unnecessary mechanical shutter (for video), money is saved, which is why the camera is much cheaper than the fx3. It is not suitable for stills; it is on the cutting-edge for video. That is the definition of non-hybrid. 

The fx30 has timecode, 4K DCI, 24.0 fps, tally lights, and special lcd viewing configurations for video. Same features as the fx3, which is approved by Netflix for cinema. And none of the a7 cameras are, because they lack essential features for video. Note that the fx3 does not have shutter angle or ND's - shutter angle is hardly an essential cinema feature unless one is incapable of dividing by 2; it seems that built-in ND's and IBIS do not work together - I prefer IBIS. I would love to have the electronic ND. 

Hybrid is another word for compromise. The a7 cameras are crippled for video; the fx30 is crippled for stills. So, guess which one I choose for video?

I do not understand why you have the need to dump on the fx30. The a7 cameras are crippled for video, no doubt. I feel your pain you did not get video-centric upgrades. So you take out your disappointment and envy and just plain meanness on the fx30 and those who use it? 

It is just plain nuts to define the fx30 as a hybrid camera and not a cinema camera.

I agree completely that your camera not getting video upgrades is maddening and results from pure selfish greed on the part of Sony. I hate Sony. But that is not going to stop me from pointing out silly logic based on obvious ownership bias, or to stop me from using Sony cameras if they suit my needs better than other cameras (and I have made clear why the fx30 is right for my purpose right now).

6 minutes ago, SRV1981 said:

Looks great! Is this slog? What’s the biggest things you miss when shooting fx30 vs fx3? And what’s the biggest advantages over the fx3?

Slog3. I do like the full-frame look and the spotless 4K 120p of the fx3. But, the fx3 4K is oversampled, so it visibly has more resolution, and the zoom lenses are much smaller for the same range. The difference in low light is also not as large as one might think given the sensor size and pixel size differences.