markr041

Now, tests of Dynamic Active Stabilization Slowed 2X (from 4K 60P) in a 4K 30P video + Clear Image Zoom with a power zoom lens - the AI-assisted capabilities of the ZV E1.

Climbing a hill and other moves.

38 minutes ago, SRV1981 said:

Is it possible to shoot action sports in 4k60p and grab frames to print that have good quality?  What is the max size you'd feel comfortable doing?  Was curious because the fx30 may be a good video camera and if action frames could be grabbed, edited, printed it may forego the need to do individual photography for personal use.  Although I do know the a7c2 and a6700 are coming out and may be better solutions but still curious.

The fx30 is a good video camera. And 60 fps enables high shutter speeds for both good motion in video and stop-action for stills.

But it would seem the ideal cameras for taking stills from video frames and shooting videos are the Nikon Z8 and Z9, which can shoot 8K RAW 60p.

9 minutes ago, hyalinejim said:

I guess if grouchy people didn't post on this forum there would be fewer posts to read. So it's a good thing, really.

Carry on!

🥸

I am glad you enjoyed the back and forth. 🙂 But I find it not so amusing, and have reached out personally to stop it, me included.

2 hours ago, kye said:

You have gotten OIS and IBIS confused.

No, the X3000 has IBIS - sensor stabilization. I assume you know the difference, you just are ignorant about the camera you actually own! Let me be clear: I have not gotten OIS and IBIS confused. I am glad you found out your mistake on your own after you posted your ignorant accusation. It is too bad you cannot on this site remove a post.

You need to refrain from posting when you do not know what you are talking about. 🙂 And you certainly should not accuse others of that sin given your behavior.

1 hour ago, kye said:

Well, I'll be darned, I thought the X3000 was OIS only, but it's something else entirely, sort of an internal gimbal.

Ok.

So, you made a statement, I disagreed, you challenged me to back up my claim with evidence, I did, and now you move the goal posts by saying that the sensor is too small.

I've played this game before - it's what happens when someone is proven wrong and doesn't want to admit it.

How can we have a sensible discussion if you're not willing to admit it when you are wrong?  It seems like you only started this thread because the last one had too many criticisms of your pet camera.

So you accused me of not knowing the difference between OIS and IBIS. And now you see that the X3000 has IBIS. I am glad you admitted your mistake (the B&H page on this camera makes the same mistake). That you rushed to accuse me of ignorance reveals what you are about. You do not need to apologize. But, since you did not I will directly reply to your accusation.

Your fuzzy, shaky video does not refute the claim that any IBIS alone can beat what the ZV E1 can do. Your little video clip is shakier, with shakiness hidden by low resolution and underexposure. I appreciate your trying to refute, as I said. I did add that I forgot about this camera, which have used!, and that it is easier to stabilize with IBIS a small sensor, which is fact, not an evasion.

Now you are making statements about my motivations for posting a video. "pet" camera! All I did was to post a video demonstrating what the ZV E1 camera can do without a gimbal and added some enthusiastic hyperbole, which you are yet to refute, though, again, I appreciate you tried and actually posted a video.

You simply cannot stop making personal attacks. You want to examine your behavior, and your agenda. That is my gratuitous advice to you.

10 minutes ago, deezid said:

Looks like an extra shaky GoPro to me? 🤷‍♂️

I agree that it is not as good as what the GoPro can do. That is the gold standard.

7 hours ago, kye said:

Please go ahead and "show" me that "No camera with IBIS can do this".

How will you show this?  By posting every clip ever shot with an IBIS camera?  What about the ones that were uploaded without providing camera model details?  What about the ones that were uploaded privately?  What about the clips that were shot but never uploaded at all?

How on earth can you "show" that your claim about IBIS cameras is correct?

Simple - you can't.

This is a claim that is impossible to make, impossible to test, impossible to even know.  Even if it is true now, it might not be true in 10 years time, so therefore it isn't true now because it will be invalidated in the future.

 

It is easy to make claims, like "No camera with IBIS can do this" for example, but to show that those aren't the type of claims that I like to make, here's a clip I shot with OIS only.

This is the whole clip, SOOC.  I just dragged it from my footage folder into YT.

The Sony X3000 action camera has a super-wide angle lens (something like 15-17mm equivalent) that has OIS built in.  This clip was shot with the OIS enabled, but without the in-camera EIS enabled.  

It's not the most stable clip I have shot, but it's not too bad.  I also need more practice.  Things to take into account:

• I uploaded this clip because it didn't feature my friends and family and I don't post personal clips publicly
• This is a very wide angle lens and this submarine is actually a lot more cramped than it appears, and you can see that the floor isn't completely even or flat either, so I was walking carefully and trying not to bump into things (I'm also above 6' tall, so might have been ducking too - I can't remember)
• I definitely need more practice holding the camera steady
• The X3000 weighs practically nothing, the whole rig of camera + monitor + grip totals only 162g / 0.36lb so doesn't have the weight advantage of the Sony, which is probably 10-20 times heavier and has a much firmer grip than this (which you literally grip with one finger)

I really hope that you will consider my comments and try to change how you post.  There are lots of people online, and on camera forums especially, who are posting for ego reasons, or trying to push some kind of agenda, and this always generates a negative response and arguments rather than genuine discussion where everyone comes away better off.

Thanks for the gratuitous advice. I guess you don't understand scientific method. And also need to loosen up when there is hyperbole. You way overreacte, and you should think why.

Here is what you do not understand: You can *disprove* my statement that no camera with IBIS can match the ZV E1 stabilization by simply uploading a moving-camera video using only IBIS that is just as good. Simple. That was exactly my challenge to you. And, after your rant, you did just that. Good! The Sony X3000 does indeed have IBIS and that camera-moving clip looks pretty good, but not as good as my ZV E1 video Nice try. I have used that camera too, and forgot about it. I of course was thinking about serious cameras that people generally discuss here. But, yes, with a tiny-enough sensor IBIS can work pretty well, as you show. The ZV E1 has a full-frame sensor.

Here is my gratuitous advice to you: no matter how annoying a post is to YOU, that does not give you license to provide personal criticism. There is no excuse for ugly posts no matter what. Stick to what you think you know about technical aspects of cameras (which I have learned from). And post more videos. One has to be very brave to post videos here, given the incredible defensiveness and arrogance and pretentiousness that sometimes pops up (the hate for 60 fps was amazing). 

Not a travel video, not test shots of people, not reportage. Just a video that exploits the features of the camera - like superb AI AF for people, good audio, good stabilization, wide DR, full-frame subject isolation, and par focal zoom - to depict activities in a place:

Gaming and performances in a public place.

7 hours ago, mercer said:

If your hobby is travel videos, or walking around cities and taking test shots of people, and you want to add some movement to those videos, then it works for the random shot for a couple of feet.

There's definitely some correction occurring here, but it's almost smoothed out by the 60p.

It probably looks better slowed down on a 24p timeline, though. 

I agree that slowed down will help smooth, and 60p helps at normal motion (which is why 60p is preferred for capturing motion for non-fantasy use (movies)). I agree that DAS does not replace a gimbal for videos that entail constant movement (i.e., hack real estate use). Good for adding some motion to a video. But the sneering "couple of feet" is wrong, as is demonstrated. In any case long, moving shots are boring anyway. Better technique will make it even better.

6 hours ago, kye said:

If you say so.

I've gotten shots that look almost that good from OIS alone.

I don't "say so". I show. Less talk.

So, post your video demonstrating that you can walk and shoot without a gimbal on any other ILC camera using OIS alone (with no head blocking the scene like a YouTuber shill).

You did say "almost" as good. That does mean *less* good, right?

You don't have to post a video. But, it is really easy to make claims.

No stabilization in post, no gimbal.

I need more practice, but this is promising.

No camera with IBIS can do this.

Yes, there is a crop. 

The ZV E1 is a great travel camera:

The Zeiss 24-70 lens is the ONLY Sony 24-70 or 20-70 lens that is parfocal (not the GMaster or the new 20-70 G).

The very last clip of this video was shot at ISO 12,800 in the dark Union station. I do not see anything "mushy." Is this another exaggerated obsession, like with overheating? 🙂 

34 minutes ago, kye said:

No straw man attacks here - I simply replied to your comment:

by explaining why people might take long boring takes from one position.

True, and I also enjoy this as well, but it's not always about pushing just for the fun of it, size can also be a significant factor.

There are a significant number of reasons that someone might want to shoot using a camera/rig that's as physically small as possible.  Unfortunately, almost the entire industry is based around the idea that if you want better video quality then you will be happy having a larger camera, which is an assumption that works in many use-cases, but not all.

The critics of this perspective cite the reality of needing to have large enough batteries and to dissipate heat etc, but the factor that this doesn't take into consideration is resolution.  8K60 is 10 times the data-rate of 4K 24p and 40 times the data-rate of 2K 24p.  Things like screens consume about the same amount of power regardless of the resolution of the camera, so you can't just reduce the battery by a factor of 10x, but even if it meant you could quarter the size, then you're also quartering the heat dissipation requirements.  

But no, manufacturers insist on increasing resolution and keeping the same sized bodies, or, as this thread has included, they put too much processing into a camera body and will let it fail to operate and then declare that this is a normal and acceptable product design.  They have even managed to convince large numbers of people that this is something to be expected - I find this kind of thing to be bizarre.

Every thread is that thread, including this one.  I'm not sure why you thought it wasn't....

I dont think anyone in this thread is talking about creative use of the zv e1, except the guy who posts actual videos from it, whatever their worth.

Putting a zv e1 on a tripod, pressing the record button, and leaving the camera on is not a "creative" use of the camera. Get it? It is a use for sure. So would using the camera as a hammer. Whatever you like.

I reacted to the continued posts about overheating. Each camera has a best use and a worst use. I emphasized the best use. You can guess what I think is the worst. But if that's what people want to do, just great! Go for it.

3 hours ago, kye said:

Absolutely!

If we all only did what the manufacturer suggested we h you might as well erase half of the footage online, across all streaming services and content hosting sites.

Some notable mentions (that make using a ZV-E1 for film-making look completely normal) include:

• Using GoPros in major feature films, like the $66M Need For Speed - https://www.filmmakersacademy.com/gopro-hero3/
• Filming feature films entirely using a smartphone, like Tangerine - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tangerine_(film)
• Using the Magic Lantern firmware on Canon cameras
• etc etc

In fact, using DSLRs to record professional video at all was not intended by the manufacturers.  Had we followed their guidance we wouldn't have had the entire DSLR revolution, this blog, and an entirely new chapter of indy film-making which includes indy features but also all the forms of video social media around.  Ironically, had we only followed the manufacturers guidance, the ZV-E1 probably wouldn't exist.  

So when @markr041 talks about how the ZV-E1 should only be used for travel and vlogging, it goes against the entire idea that created the camera, both travel film-making and vlogging genres, and also the existence and purpose of this whole site.

Yes, anyone using a camera for a purpose not intended by camera design should be banned. It is a sin to to misuse a camera beyond its capacity. Those who do this are obviously incompetent or stupid, and don't understand the basics of videography. Or cannot afford real cinema cameras because they are mediocre professionals.

This site is only about following manufacturer's instructions and benchmarking camera specs. All discussions of film making should be deleted. [Attacks on posted videos or posters are ok, as long as they make the poster feel better about himself.]

Any other straw man you guys want to attack?

Seriously, It is actually fun to push a camera to its limits, and to find creative ways to make use of any camera beyond the ordinary.

Maybe we should have a thread devoted to creative uses of cheap, consumer cams for professional video. It would be very interesting. As long as people stop being pretentious and sanctimonious. 

1 hour ago, ntblowz said:

Does Dynamic Active Stabilization works on the 24-70 F4?  I heard it doesn't work on 3rd party lens, but I m not sure about older Sony lens.  Your video there is really stable, I think more stable than 28-60mm?

The 28-60 has no OSS. The 24-70 has OSS, so in principle, if they coordinate, there should be more stability with IBIS. I use Active Stabilization for static shots, reserving dynamic stabilization for moving with the camera. I have not tried that (yet) with the Zeiss/Sony lens.

The ZV E1, paired with a good lens, like the Zeiss 24-70 f4, does really provide a nice image. And that sticky tracking focus assisted by AI really works and is needed here (the dancer moving and turning, for example).

Here is Hare Krisha at Washington Square Park.

Oh, and the audio quality of the camera is above the usual.

1 hour ago, Django said:

Well let's face it, everybody likes to save money no matter your income. So when the Sony shills on YouTube are out there spinning the ZV-E1 is an A7S3/FX3 for almost half the price, eyebrows get raised. What's the catch? Well its quite simple, Sony stripped the camera to its bare bones and it overheats during long takes as result. And the shit show commences.

Overheating is a controversial subject. Most people I think feel a camera past a certain price point shouldn't have such limitations. Sony did put a lot of effort into making sure this camera is identified as a VLog camera. It's not in the A7 series its ZV. And I guess that for its intended use, the camera performs to satisfaction. So why the fuss?

Because price aside, there are a few cool things about the ZV-E1. It has features neither the A7S3 or the FX3 have thanks to the AI processor. The AF is really impressive, it has breathing comp etc. Also the touchscreen supports gestures etc. The camera just feels snappy and the AF doesn't skip a beat no matter what you throw at it.

So in a few ways, the ZV-E1 kinda feels like an updated A7S3/FX3. And that's rather alluring, especially in the US at its price point. But that's when reality hits and you must realise its a vlog/travel C-cam intended for short takes. If that's your method of shooting, well you're in luck. If not, its probably going to be a hard pass. Its as simple as that. 

Terrific post. I just want to add something that I think is overlooked - the ZV E1 is not a cheap fx3, it is a miniatured fx3. and that miniaturization, which makes the camera ideal for travel, is what has led to the compromises that some people hate - the single card slot, the lack of a viewfinder, the micro HDMI slot, and overheating. All these are directly due to keeping the camera small. It is physics, not some cripple hammer marketing ploy. Thus, pleading with Sony to "improve" on these shortcomings is fruitless, with current technology. When the chips are more efficient, overheating will go away even for a small form-factor camera. But unless there is a new storage standard - nano sd cards? - adding another slot without adding bulk seems impossible.

And, as was said, there are bonus features over and above the capability of all the cinema line cameras due to the AI chip - the sticky tracking focus that allows people who turn their backs on the videographer to stay in focus - mere eye detection cannot stay in focus if people turn their heads. CIZ is also better, and there is dynamic active stabilization so that for the first time with any full-frame camera you can walk and shoot without a gimbal, with little resolution loss despite the crop (CIZ).

4 minutes ago, kye said:

Oops, I thought we were discussing film-making.

Feel free to go back to telling other people how they should film, what equipment they should have, how they should run their businesses, etc...  sorry I interrupted.  My bad!

Really, this about film-making? This thread is about a specific camera, and what it can do and what it cannot. And what it cannot do is shoot long takes in 4K at 60 fps. It overheats.

You think it is a good idea to use a compact camera with heat issues and a noisy external fan for taking long clips when there is an obviously better alternative? I guess you are right, as a  film maker. And the camera has one card slot. You want to bet your advance on using such a camera for a client? 

"Film making". Seriously, making a "film" with a ZV E1 for static long takes? 

It's a great travel camera for video. Tested. But, film-making! Really?

Btw, I liked the discussion on sensors and processors and color science and dynamic range. Useful.

If you disagree with an argument, sarcasm is not useful.

1 hour ago, ntblowz said:

E1 is definitely not the target audience for people who are on this forum, youtube is definitely is. 

Having said that, a fan and e1 and a lens still cost way less than a fx3, and times that by 3 the price difference is quite a lot. 

And seriously is that all you shoot? Just a bunch of random video with random strangers doing their own stuff that give you voyeuristic feel? Especially if you want something small so people don't notice that you are filming them in secret?

Ok, feel good now about your comment on my videos? Think this makes your defense of using a fan to make the ZV E1 a strap-down long-video camera more credible? I thought it was a joke. But you are actually so lacking resources for what you do professionally that you are serious?

It must be very frustrating to be so unsuccessful in life that you cannot afford an fx3 when it is evident you need one. I don't actually think you cannot afford whatever eqipment you need, and you are just being contrarian, right?

I would love to shoot a bts video of the fan technique, but it would be embarrassing, and I never shoot anyone to embarrass them.

Meanwhile, I will enjoy making random videos of random people, whether some like them or not. With suitable equipment.

2 minutes ago, PannySVHS said:

To me, your videos have a consistent appearance regarding colour, subjects, rhythm within shot, movement in x and z dimensions, shot size. Parts of your oevre seem to have shaped in front of our eyes over the last six months with many videos, proving your taste and style, showing various technical aspects of modern Sony hybrid cameras. No reason to put yourself down by calling your shots short and boring. Nor are there convincing reasons to assume we would do long and boring shots. I know, when I come to this thread, that you will keep delivering videos on a regular pace with similar parameters in image and Mise en Scène. Still I would not assume, that  your display shows everything about how you approach the moving image. @markr041

I was being ironic with the term boring (although I did have one poster in one forum constantly stating that for every one of my videos!). I just wanted not to appear to be saying my videos are superior in any way. They are just examples exploiting the key features of the ZV E1, like them or not.

My point is merely that the ZV E1's key feature is portability (small size, best-in-class stabilization for movement), and mounting it on a tripod in any temperature is not its intended use (despite what Sony marketing is trying to say).

The obsession with overheating seems to arise from use of the camera for which it is not suited, and one can get exactly the same quality from an available alternative - the fx3, which has a fan - for long static takes in any environment. I get such video has an important purpose, but I also get that that purpose is exactly not what the ZV E1 is for.

Do NOT purchase or rent the ZV E1 for static long takes of 4K 60p video. Save the money you would have spent on fans and other cooling devices for an fx3 if you like the look of the ZV E1. You do not need Dynamic Active Stabilization or compactness, although you will miss AI-assisted tracking (which is really better than the tracking on the fx3).

10 minutes ago, kye said:

Quite a few people on here are filming things like weddings or concerts where you need to run multiple cameras for a long time and have them run unsupervised because they're operating a roaming camera while the others are rolling.  In these situations it's not uncommon for each camera to need to record for an hour or more, sometimes in full sun, without encountering any issues.  If you are shooting a wedding with three cameras and one of them shuts down after 25 minutes then you're potentially screwed in the edit.  

I've watched wedding videographers edit a 3-camera multi-cam from a wedding ceremony and even though they didn't have a camera overheat and stop working, there were points in the edit when two of their three camera angles were unusable and they were down to one usable angle.  Had that camera overheated, they'd have been down to zero (or forced to use the angle that was setup when everyone was sitting but in the moment that everyone stood up it just showed the backs of the people sitting in the back row - not exactly a professional moment).

Add to this the fact that in these situations it's useful to have identical cameras so that all the lenses and cards and accessories are all interchangeable.  So if one camera is at risk of overheating then it isn't impossible to have multiple cameras overheat, which would well and truly screw you.

Besides, 87F is pathetic in terms of overheating tests....  I have overheated an iPhone before because it was 107F, I was recording clips that were several minutes long, it was in full sun, and the brightness of the screen was up full so that I could see what I was pointing the camera at.  I literally submerged half of it in a river to cool it down because I was missing moments (the people swimming in the river).  You can't do that with most cameras, and if they overheated without them being attended, you'd never know until it was too late.

One thing that causes almost all the head-scratching (and starts almost all the arguments) is when one person cannot understand that someone else uses their equipment differently, to achieve a different result, for a different audience.  I suggest you start paying closer attention to how people talk about their camera choices - video is one of those fields where there are lots of ways of doing things and where techniques from one approach can be really handy to understand in your own work which might be very different.

I am not the "one person" who does not understand the different uses of cameras and techniques.

What I do not understand is why anyone thinks this camera is suited for mounting on a tripod and shooting video for an hour. Nothing wrong with the use, what is wrong is thinking this camera is at all suited for this purpose. Get over it already. It is not. 

There is no point acquiring a camera whose most important feature is compactness for mounting on a tripod and shooting video for an hour. Obviously. Get an fx3 and be done with it, already.

The ZV E1 camera is for portability, handheld use. For relatively short takes; not 5 seconds, but not 10 minutes either. In any temperature. Would I prioritize the camera in non-pathetic 105 F temperature? No.

Cell phones for video serve their purpose, and are now pretty-good quality.

And, a vertical video sometimes makes the best sense:

This video had 1800 views within one hour. Looks great on a cellphone held normally...

And, for a romantic walk around a lake, a cellphone can come in handy when video-taking is not the point:

Seriously, guys. Overheating? Do you take long, boring takes from one position? That's what you shoot?

I have shot short boring takes in all sorts of hot, muggy conditions and the camera did not even get warm.

Anyway, for the first bright sunny day since I acquired the camera, I used the upgraded Sony FE 24-105 G lens to shoot an HDR video. New lens firmware, out last November, is alleged to have improved stabilization coordination with the A7R V - but since the ZV E1 has the exact same processors as that camera, I thought I would try the lens out.

And no overheating. I guess I have to keep saying this...

Likely my last travel video from China. The small camera was a success, in not attracting attention, not overheating, and grabbing high-quality images.

The Wetlands of Hangzhou:

The kit lens. 87 degrees F. No overheating.