markr041

35 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

@kye indeed.

My own preferences regarding any scene is a wider establishing shot or picture that basically tells the viewer ‘where’.

Then a tighter ‘mid’ shot that introduces ‘who’.

Followed by tighter still ‘what’ imagery.

I may end any chapter going wide again but as with all these things, rules can be broken.

The above is really all the focal length stuff and next up is handheld, floaty, or locked off…

For the wide stuff, always locked off.

For candid, steady handheld. I detest the ‘handheld jittery’ look personally as is used in a lot of modern productions. Hate it. The camera/production should be invisible and not intrusive ‘found footage’ style. Personally.

Couple stuff, especially walking, gimbal. Warpy backgrounds do my nut. Guilty, but back to using the gimbal 100% for this next year.

And then we have all the stuff such as lighting and grading etc, the latter being very individual indeed. Personally, I prefer a more modern rendering rather than the softer and more granular older style, so prefer say full-frame over say 16mm, but again, just personal taste.

I can’t abide the camcorder look though which is why in the past I have always used a lot of slow mo as it’s an easy fix (partially anyway) to removing that look. Going forward, I am backing off quite a bit from the slow mo approach and using capture techniques and grading instead to eliminate that ‘digital’ look.

The one thing I can’t blame is the tools however as they are all ‘perfect’ for my needs so it’s just a case of what I can produce with them…

What exactly are the "camcorder look" and the " digital look"? And what is bad about them?

This should be easier to answer than what is "cinematic."

Nikon Z8 or Z9: 8K 60P 12bit RAW video - no need for an external recorder to shoot RAW. 8K for all the detail that landscapes need, and 60P to capture naturally those crashing surfs. RAW  (but you can also use ProRes HQ) for maximum flexibility in post. Nikon Z lenses are optically superb

Testing at night in 4K 60P:

The internal audio has horrible digital hash in the background, and has no manual level control.

The external mic audio, however, is not bad and has a manual gain control. Here's a test: with live music and sounds:

SonicPresence SP15C Binaural Stereo USB-C mic. 4K 60P, HLG.

Jazz trios, solo guitar, tap dancing, typing, compressor, fountain.

The HLG setting in the Pocket 3 conforms to the standard - REC2020 color gamut (approximately) and the HLG gamma. So it is easy to start grading using the standard transforms.

Two examples in HLG HDR:

3 hours ago, kye said:

I know of at least one group of professional colourists who are profiling some of these cameras themselves because the available information isn't sufficient to do proper transforms.  You might think all the information is there, but it's not.

I don't know enough about colour spaces to know why the information that's been provided isn't sufficient, but if it was then these transforms would have been built already and the professional colourists wouldn't be having to grade these files manually, or build their own transforms for them.

I am not sure what you are adding.

Yes, there is no mathematical statement of the gamma, as I said, twice. And there is not diagram/math describing the area of the WIDE gamut, as I said (only once). Though the G-Log uses the REC709 color gamut as the default, which is known.

We do not need "professional colourists" to tell us what is missing, but I am very glad to hear you mingle with them, which I guess is the point of your post.

Professional colourist or not, it is very difficult to deal with an undescribed gamma and color gamut when color grading video and I agree with you, as I said twice, GoPro should be compelled to provide the information, given their evident commitment to having GoPro's used by filmmakers (who seem to use them anyway), so we can get proper transforms and not rely on amateur LUTs or ad hoc fiddling with color controls.

Thanks again for your lecture as if the audience here is not aware of gamuts and gammas. But maybe there is someone who does not, and I am sure he is grateful for your post, however besides the point of this discussion.

You wanted a specification for the GoPro log gamma, a good idea. So, we were discussing gammas. The G-Log is using the REC709 color gamut, so that is not an issue for D-log, which is a gamma. Look it up. Slog is a gamma, C-Log is a gamma, N-Log is a gamma. Nothing to do with color space.

There is an issue with the WIDE color space of the GoPro (called 'Native" and bizarrely set in white balance), which does not conform to a standard (just like SGamut.cine etc.) and can be used with the Flat gamma or the G-Log gamma.. And I agree it would be nice to have the specs on that so one can transform it to standard, REC709 or maybe even approximately to REC2020.

And, yes, we need the same info for DJI's D-log, which, again, is only a gamma. when you select D-Log you get REC709 color. You can look it up.

Indeed, for the Pocket 3, one might be better off using the HLG choice, since that uses the standard HLG gamma and the standard REC2020 color space. You can look it up. Thus, one can use the transforms and do not need anyone' LUT.

32 minutes ago, kye said:

A published technical specification that would allow it to be integrated into ACES RCM etc.

Ok, you are asking them to publish the specs so RCM can be used. I agree, so we can avoid LUTs. But that is not a criticism of the gamma itself. GoPro proper behavior, not proper gamma? On the GoPro Labs website a graph of the D-log gamma is shown; one could compute the math that fits that curve.

Btw, the DJI Pocket 3 D-Log M does not handle highlights very well; the Hero 11 and 12 G-Log does better. And a LUT is also needed for the D-log, since DJI does not reveal the specs. The LUT is supplied.

15 hours ago, kye said:

A proper LOG implementation would be even better.  That way it could be graded properly using colour management.  Now that Apple have shown what is possible with Apple Log, there's no denying that it's possible.

Could you explain what a "proper" log is? We are referring to a gamma curve. There is no standard "log" gamma: there is N-Log, Z-Log, S-Log,(2 and 3) M-Log, C-Log(2 and 3)  etc. - all different. And then there is GoPro's Log. What about it is any less "proper" than all these other "logs"? The only standard log gammas are those, for example, for HLG and HDR10 (PQ).

There was indeed something wrong with the G-Log implementation in the Hero 12 initial firmware as I suspected. I believe that the EV was automatically set to -2 (with no notice) and the LUT upped the luma to compensate. The result was, in my first video using the G-Log and the LUT, horrible noise in the shadows on a bright day. Not subtle.

GoPro has just issued a firmware update adding EV control when choosing G-Log and has issued a first LUT for it called GPLOG_Creative_EV0. GoPro promises more LUTs, which I bet will be EV-1 and EV-2. Hopefully the EV0 will provide better results with EV=0. Now users can choose to protect highlights rather than being forced to obtain more shadow detail (why would anyone do that except in horror movies?). 

I am still concerned by the audio (not relevant for this video, which is just for Happy Halloween), with the internal-mic audio sounding odd.

For the internal mics, there is no control of gain. For any external mic, however, there is. And any usb-c mic will work even in stereo (I tried one), and with an external mic you see audio meter bars on the screen by which to check and set audio levels. It also seems that any usb-c to female 3.5" converter cable will also work so one can use wired standard mics with unbalanced connectors with the camera, unlike for the GoPro's.

Finally, you can use two DJI wireless mic2's to record in stereo, if you can purchase a second DJI mic2. So, interviewer and interviewee mic'ed up wirelessly with 32bit float recorded on each "mic" as backup.

So, the audio is actually a big focus for the camera, but I do not understand why the double standard, internal and external.

2 hours ago, Emanuel said:

@markr041 How have you found D-Log also going basically along 4K 120fps BTW?

And compartively with GoPro Hero 12 for same frame rate other than low light shooting?

No D-Log option for 4K 120P.

It seems to me the Hero 12 (11) has greater dynamic range using G-log (which is available at all frame rates and resolutions) than the Pocket 3 D-Log.  At least the Hero 12 handles highlights better. I am now shooting the Pocket 3 with EV -.3 now to try to improve the preservation of highlights.

4K 120P Slow Motion Demo

Standard color (no D-Log).

OK, here you go: using the D-Log M 10bit setting and the official DJI D-Log M LUT (I hate LUTs, but what can you do):

Harsh highlights and very processed-sounding audio (set to stereo, front). Not stressed in lower light as expected. Colors are good, but somehow not so appealing. I nixed a bunch of outdoors shots because they were all overexposed (based on using auto exposure), not a problem with current GoPro's (used to be).

Noise reduction was turned off in the camera, sharpness set to -1, not -2, from 0.

GoPro's look to me to have better handling of highlights, more appealing color, and much better audio. Pocket 3 does the job in low light, where the GoPro essentially cannot operate.

I do not think anyone would shoot a mediocre attempted blockbuster film with the Pocket 3 (as was done with the fx3), and it's not a crash cam.

But if one wants to move with the camera in dim places and loves portability this is the only alternative.

It does, btw, charge really fast and it is a nice screen. But that audio...

I will try again outdoors in bright light.

21 hours ago, kye said:

Being able to stop down a few stops won't help you much during the day, you'd need to use an ND filter anyway.  Of course, in combination with an ND, using the aperture to fine tune the exposure would be useful, but it's not going to eliminate the need for an ND.

It wouldn't be noticeable - the 1 inch sensor giving a 20mm FOV means it has a 7.4mm F2.8 lens - not exactly a shallow DoF monster!

This lens has infinite focus unless focused very close:

• When focused at 5.8ft, the focal plane is from 2.9ft to infinity
• When focused at 5.0ft, the focal plane is from 2.7ft to 36.1ft
• When focused at 3ft, the focal plane is from 2ft to 6.2ft

I very much doubt that anyone shooting with this camera and focusing closer than 5ft would see the background slightly out of focus and want to stop down.  I mean, maybe someone somewhere would do that, but it's hardly going to occur frequently enough for DJI to add an aperture mechanism to an entire product.

The hyperfocal distance calculations are useful. But can you lock focus at say 6 feet? When moving with the camera straight along a path in AF, what does the camera focus on? 

1 hour ago, sanveer said:

Wouldn't anyone notice scenes with varying f-stops? Wouldn't the varying depth of field make continuity or sequence shots seem strange? Or its not really noticeable. 

On a normal camera you can fix the aperture at an fstop you want. Having an iris means you can control the depth of field. And in bright sun you could avoid the highest shutter speeds.

With a permanently fixed fstop of f2.0 or f1.8 you not not only need high shutter speeds you need to worry about focus, with a 1" sensor, because depth of field will be relatively narrow.

The joy of shooting with the GoPro is that with the small sensor and very wide angle lens you never have to worry about focus - everything is in focus from about 11 inches onward.

1 hour ago, Emanuel said:

Arrived:

WOW

 

Who will resist to not have it for half grand? ; )

The top bargain ever, so far, IMO... This is a dream but for real from now on. And not necessarily for vlogging capture device for sure. Street videography/photography shooters will just say thanks ;- )

I agree. My only conern is the audio - no manual control of audio levels. Almost all the other 1" sensor cameras have audio manual control. The other is no aperture/shutter contol that I see. Bright light needs external ND filters (which are available), very awkward to even attain 180 shutter. The 1"  Canon V10 has full manual control of audio and video settings and builtin ND.

I wish people would give a link to a film,  stream series, TV show, wedding video etc. they like the look of, then maybe explain what was used to achieve it ("1917" was one example).

I will commit: I like the look of Ted Lasso. Colorful without the teal and yellow/orange, no hiding of backgrounds, high resolution (delivered 4K with no mist filter). But still a bit hyper reality. The best part was: subject isolation. This series was shot on an ARRI LF, which has a sensor bigger than FF. There was no super blurred backgrounds, just enough DOF for subject isolation and seeing what was around. Some close ups, of course.

I also like the look of The Searchers - big widescreen and wide angle with seemingly infinite DOF. A look relevant to the setting, should not work for London! Not a controversial choice.

In neither of these do I think "lens character" mattered, so much as focal length and aperture (and sensor size for the digital one). But maybe I missed the subtelties.

Another innovation: Now, Hero 11, 12 and mini can go 60 feet underwater instead of 30 feet without the extra external case with a new GoPro Labs firmware setting ("Dive Mode").

It turns out that the only problem going below 30 feet is that water pressure pushes the buttons down! This setting disables the buttons. Starting and stopping shooting is based on shaking the camera and exciting the gyroscope or the accelerometer. Clever and useful.

The GoPro Labs firmware adds a large variety of capabilities not available on any other "action", or many other cameras, and continues to add features.

Let's continue to gripe about GoPros's, in an informed way, so GoPro continues to innovate.

Leaving aside the condescending tone (really, we all need to learn color grading because we do not do it?), I agree with the OP that none of the default LUTs or transforms to REC709 are satisfactory and adjustments in post are almost always needed. And the examples are useful.

For the opportunistic video I shoot, for which it is impossible to set white balance manually and catch the shot, I use auto WB. And WB that is off is the number one problem with the ungraded but transformed clips. This is one reason why I shoot RAW, because WB adjustments are always needed. The examples given seem to be of studio shots with controlled lighting and time to set everything right in the camera, and so are good examples of the pure inadequacy of the transforms shot correctly (although one looks underexposed).

Generally, after transforms and WB adjustments I find saturation needs boosting as well as contrast, but skin tones are usually ok. For real RAW, sharpness needs tweaking too. The aim of course in my case is to mimic reality (the illusion of reality). None of this makes me an expert in color grading, and I am still learning some skills, but it has been enough to get positive "wows" from viewers seeing 8K 60 fps representations meant to convey they are there.

1 hour ago, kye said:

Completely agree on both points.

I owned the Hero 3 Black, and used it as my waterproof camera to compliment my GF3.  I used it with the battery back for recording underwater, for snorkelling trips, for swimming with the kids, and for photos when it was raining.  It was actually a pretty good photo camera - I shot with no screen and set it to burst mode and would pan the camera and then select the photo with the right composition.  Great for street photography in this mode.

Anyway, after having it just stop working almost every time I recorded with it, I just adopted the habit of pulling the battery every time I got out of the water.  If I needed a new battery I'd swap it, if not I'd just pull it apart and wait 20s then put it back in again.  That sorted it out - most of the time anyway.  The frustrating thing is that if you notice it's stopped recording and you're snorkelling 500m from the shore, good luck trying to reset it...  back to the beach you're swimming!

Also agree that they didn't really know what to do in terms of the brands strategy.  They might have had some idea when they went down the path of having that drone that could use your GoPro on it.  The idea of buying a camera module and then mounting it to everything was a good one, but they just couldn't deliver, so got eaten alive by DJI.

I absolutely and completely disagree.

The Hero 3 Black, which I owned, was an action camera that:

• shot various combinations of resolution and frame rates
• had wifi control and preview
• had software tools that weren't really that innovative
• was buggy to the point of it being disruptive to shoot with

Over the course of the last decade the product went from the above to a camera that:

• shot various combinations of resolution and frame rates
• had excellent stabilisation (new!)
• had a mode that un-fish-eyed the image (new!)
• had wifi control and preview
• had software tools that weren't really that innovative
• overheats unnecessarily compared to other cameras

In over a decade, that's not innovation.  

I watched each year as the new models came out to see if I would upgrade mine.  I really liked the form factor and entire concept because it complemented the rest of my setup so well.  

Spoiler: I ended up buying the Sony X3000 in 2019 because it had physical stabilisation instead of digital stabilisation, which works in low-light when the shutter speeds get longer and motion blur becomes a thing.

The parallel example is what smartphone manufacturers have done with smartphone cameras, and those have changed a huge amount during the last decade.

Now you are just being ornery and unfortunately misleading. GoPro added 10bit color. That is not trivial. GoPro added 5.3K resolution at 60P. That is not trivial. No small waterproof camera has that combination. You just ignore these advances. Now we got control over the gamma curve; we can even control noise reduction - which you cannot do on Sony cinema cameras. That is new too. We can increase the color gamut, that is new. Maybe you just don't know about these advances?

GoPro stabilization won an Academy Award, and beats any camera of any price and any phone. 

It is a real challenge to avoid overheating in a tiny waterproof-sealed box shooting 180 mbs at 5.3K and 60 fps. And in the latest version they managed to more than double time to thermal shutdown, up to an hour. That is new and important. Sony, Nikon, and Canon top cameras overheat.

I have the Sony X3000. In its day it was the best action cam, and I really liked it and shot many videos with it. Today its IQ is a joke compared to that of any GoPro from 8 on up, as is its stabilization. And Sony stopped innovating in that area, completely.

I liked the little dji gimbal camera - that was innovative. It beats the Sony X3000 in every way too. But even its second version has inferior IQ and stabilization to the newer GoPros. And of course it is neither rugged nor waterproof. We will see what the third version offers.

Complaining about GoPros is useful, but only when it is informed.

5 hours ago, gt3rs said:

 

Of course, I don’t judge the quality (hw, sw and video) from their stock price 🙂. But they are under enormous pressure to survive, it is not like being a private company. They did many miss steps so now they seem to be ripping off customers to try to stay afloat. Btw I was a GPRO stockholder.

My first Gopro was Hero 2 and went up Hero 10. In parallel I started using insta360 cameras and now I’m Gopro free 😊 although I use sometime some of my customer’s ones as backup cameras.

I filmed in harsh situations so my experience could be different than others.
I have mounted on Rally Cars in Lapland and Africa, on wings of Military Jet, on desert's Buggy, Alaska Heliskiing, MTB etc..

The number of freezes, overheats, battery draining (enduro battery was made because the standard one was basically useless in winter conditions...wtf) that I had it was just so frustrating.

Gopro Hero Max is so old that is insane that they still sell it and the software is ridiculously bad compared to the insta360 one.

Gopro Mini, Session etc they still don’t know what to do… seems a trial and error approach

Gopro 10 was probably the buggiest camera that I had from all the camera that I have owned. Just do a google search for freezes, overheats, battery drain... and you will see that I'm not the only one.

And let’s not talk about their subscription model that they try to “lock you in” with hw discount hoping that you will not cancel a pretty useless subscription.

I was a big gopro fan, but they failed so many times on me that I don’t trust them anymore.

The 12 should have been a FW fix of the 11.. but as quoted company you need to bring more revenue and is a declining market too as form many a phone is a better solution than a gopro.












 

That's great stuff, and we can see why you had some frustrating experiences. But you could read the history as GoPro responding to issues: eg, create the Enduro battery precisely to improve battery life in the cold, overcome the heat and battery life issues of the highest resolutions and frame rates, improve the responsiveness of the lcd to touch, add 10 bit color, provide log gammas, add full-sensor framing (8:7), up resolution, improve stabilization, make performance more reliable. And all the while keeping the same form factor and robustness and price. No to mention GoPro Labs innovations and the the use of QR codes.

Having failures is a symptom of innovation. There are really still no competitors (leaving aside 360 for now) that are not just trying to match, unsuccessfully, Hero's. No real innovation by anyone else.

And, we should keep complaining, because GoPro evidently responds!

4 hours ago, kye said:

Of course not!

We judge them purely by megapixels and dynamic range.  Every other consideration is irrelevant to us, as artists and creative people.

😂😂😂

Is it the most taxing mode?  

It is the mode with the most resolution to compress, but other modes have the burden of downsampling, which this one wouldn't have.  I'm not sure which would be more strenuous.

I've recently experimented with running Resolve in 720p (applying various blurs and colour processes at this resolution) and then exporting to 1080p via an up-sampling process from the 720p timeline.  It surprised me, but having the timeline in 720p (with less than half the total pixels) and upsampling the result was dramatically slower than just doing all the processing to a 1080p timeline and not doing any upsampling on export.  Both were compressing the 1080p file of course, so no differences there. 

I didn't realise that image rescaling was more computationally demanding than processing the higher resolution natively.

5.3K 60p is the mode that is mostly likely to lead to thermal shutdown, *according to GoPro*. Indeed that mode is where on the Hero 12 they claim to have made the most improvements in battery life and heating.  Anyway, the relative thermal and battery life performance suggest 5.3K 60p is the most taxing on the GoPro.

I agree downsampling is strenuous; I wonder if the 4K modes are line skipped or pixel binned. GoPro has never revealed how they achieve full sensor framing at lower resolutions.

I often downsample 5.3K in post to 4K and that takes more time than just rendering at 5.3K. Similarly, rendering at 8K from 8K RAW takes less resources than rendering at 4K. So I produce 8K and 5.3K videos and let YouTube do the downsampling to 4K if I upload!