DBounce

6 minutes ago, Skip77 said:

WOW! 

So you say you say "many of your points are arguments against points I didn't make" and that I made a "straw-man" argument.  And then you go on to say "Therefore the argument that 6K is required for reframing and keeping similar image quality doesn't really stack up." 

I never said 6K is required for 4K reframing and keeping the same quality. What I said was "Reframing from 6K to 4K is a valid argument for 6k and you must not edit much if you're using this as an argument. You always have limits when you reframe and you have to follow the rules. 6K shooters will also be delivering content in 2K so you have even more options. "

Which means you have rules to follow when reframing.  And one rule is having higher resolution then what you're delivering too will allow reframing with the same quality. Ie. using 4K to reframe to 2K. 

So you called me out for supposedly a straw-man argument but you do the same-thing? What's that called? It starts with an H

You seem like you're reaching to try and be the hero that makes a valid point as to why we don't need 6K. 

We have more advantages for 6K from the BM P6K then we do against it. 

The S1 has horrible AF.  How can you depend on that?  

I do not own an S1... so I don’t depend on it. No one knows what the S1H will bring... because it’s not out and all we know are teasers that Panasonic gave us. 

That said, my Canons have fantastic AF. 

2 hours ago, maxmizer said:

I agree, but their devaluation is so high !!! by now not much to see ...so much garbage...
I thought a product like this https://pro.sony/ue_US/products/handheld-camcorders/pxw-z90

would be the best for the kind of live performance you do ...

Not with those tiny sensors. My current setup works great. I choose to work with what interest me and gives the look that I'm after. Sony color science is not my first pick.  If they made this with a S35 or FF sensor,  with interchangeable lens option I would be interested. 

25 minutes ago, maxmizer said:

errata corrige by google translate: I understand very well, but it produces so much with little artistic quality ...

I’ll keep that in mind next time I’m live streaming a corporate meeting. You seen to assume the use of this gear is making independent shorts. 

2 minutes ago, maxmizer said:

I don't understand very well, but it produces so much with little artistic quality ...

 

I suspect you don’t get it... AF is much better than it used to be. I’ve seen many would be filmmakers with lots of out of focus footage. 

Fyi: my motion control rigs run unattended for live shooting with no issues.

1 hour ago, maxmizer said:

if you:  prosumer 

you don't need this AF...we are serious ... on semi pro and pro they might not even put any Af, and I hope they (Sony, Panasonic, Red, Bmd...ecc) do it as soon as possible!

I'm not sure what you are talking about? Are you saying AF is not "Pro"? Honestly I could care less what is "Pro"... I use a gimbal and motion controllers and often times control multiple cameras at once.  AF is a needed feature for these situations. I'm not talking about elaborate focus pulling... I'm taking about locking onto a subject and keeping it in focus. The primary reasons I do not buy Reds and Arri are: size, weight, lack of AF and convenience. If that changes I might have to rethink things. 

This new "pocket" camera is simply too large and bulky to be the kind of camera I would carry day to day.  It's size and bulk relegate it to planned shoots. The kind of shoots my C200 is used for. The only thing this camera has going for it imo is price. But honestly, price is not a dominant factor in my purchasing decision. The more important factor for me is convenience of use... because if it is not convenient to use,  well... I don't use it. 

4 hours ago, thephoenix said:

it's funny how so many people just spit on 6k as bm just relesaed the bmpcc6k

wasn't so many haters when the S1 came out.

so why ? 6k is the future, why complain, bm produces a camera that almost everyone can buy, why complain again ?

as of 6k is over rated, i guess some said the same about 4k and some will always complain.

6k is usefull in amny many ways that had been stated many times, but one more example: if you shoot a commercial for a brand that, like so many now, needs to produce for so many medias like yt or instagram or electronic bilboards and so many differents framing then you're happy to be able to crop just as you like without losing quality.

guys, stop complaining just because you don't need something or cannot afford it.

I'm not spitting on it,  but I'm not buying it.  I do this for fun, it's just a hobby for me. I'm a prosumer... a enthusiast that will buy pro gear. But the P6Ks cameras plastic build,  lack of good AF, bulky proportions and absence of any weather sealing makes it a pass for me. It's also doesn't help that it's been beaten hard with the ugly stick. 

The Panasonic S1H, Sigma FP or the Komodo(pending specs) are more my speed. 

Just now, kye said:

Yeah, there are orders of magnitude and diminishing returns at play here...   same with lenses  

 

The playing field is being leveled. Have you seen the Note 10 Plus? It can do bokeh in video computationally. 

5 hours ago, kye said:

6K RAW for ..... >$5K.  Ouch!

Arri Alexa Mini... 4K RAW for >$40K. Ouch!

Wait what? ?

6 hours ago, wolf33d said:

Since the Red Komodo thread has been locked (why?!) and because the camera is now real, here we go. 

https://photorumors.com/2019/08/09/new-teaser-for-a-compact-red-komodo-camera/#more-112431

Small Body
6K sensor 
Cfast internal 
RF mount and variable ND filter with adapter 
Integrated mic and headphone jack 
4K SDI out
Price above 5K
Less than 2 pounds (similar as Pocket 6K)
4inch max in any dimension. For info that is the same dimension as the Pocket 6K in height, width but almost twice as small in length.

Let’s see..

 

I know, it's weird. I've since given up creating any topics here. The prior thread was about a phone.. the Hydrogen 2. So I created one specifically about the new camera... Komodo, and that thread was promptly locked. Moreover, the one about the phone was also locked. Perhaps @Andrew Reidhas a problem with Red?

28 minutes ago, kye said:

It all depends on your perspective....  for example, if you understand that this rig is pretty minimal for a cinema camera:

and that they get much bigger:

People have no clue what the word 'cinema' really entails....  

 

Well the Sigma is full frame not S35 like the ? Pocket 6k, and yet it’s not called a “pocket”. 

It doesn’t depend on ones perspective of a cinema camera... it depends on ones reasonable expectation of what can fit inside a pocket. The original camera with a pancake lens could fit inside a pocket, this thing has not a chance in hell. Frankly, it sounds comical at this point. While I haven’t actually measured, from the images it looks like the P6K is larger than all of the hybrid cinema cameras, including the admittedly large Panasonic S1H.

The P4k was not the first thing to include the word “pocket “ in its name. Most people are familiar with a pocket knife. There are expectations for how large such a item should be. You wouldn’t expect a Bowie knife to be described as “pocket”... and that’s not because most people don’t understand that swords exist.

1 hour ago, Anaconda_ said:

The 6k is definitely the uglier sibling.

I really think it’s time to drop the “pocket” designation.

This is also intriguing...

Can't say that this unwieldy beast of a $2500, plastic "pocket" camera does anything for me. The Sigma FP is mighty interesting though.

@Kisaha for me, I'll have to wait until the announcement, some independent reviews and footage. I'm not counting it out,  but it'll have to be impressive to earn my sale.

Canon will be around in five years... I don’t see them dropping out of the consumer market. They may simplify their offerings. They might have to stop leaving out desired features. The new Eos R Pro and 1DXMK3 will speak to weather Canon has learned anything about the new camera market.

Sony will be around, but might withdraw from being a smartphone manufacturer. Let’s hope the A7S4 (skipping 3 I assume?) will deliver something innovative and fresh.

Nikon... RIP. Too little, too late. How’s that raw output going? Did they already run out of cash for further development?

Olympus... dead and buried... they just don’t know it yet.

Pentax? Didn’t they go out of business in the 1980’s? They are the walking dead. 

Panasonic will survive but will need to modify their thinking. Clearly the new FF cameras are not selling as well as they would have liked. I also feel the new S1H would have lost some of its luster once it finally is released. Too many competitors will have equal or better specs by that time.

Fuji is thinking outside of the box. I’m confident they will make the cut beyond the 5 year mark. I’m excited to see that the X1H Mk2 will bring.

Camera sales are down for most of the major players...? Sony included. Those that will survive are those that can evolve.

A few that had no mention:

Sigma, let’s hope they are a new rising star.

Leica... is jewelry. They will be around for sometime to come.

2 hours ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

They should make a 1DXMK2 with full frame 4k and log and sell it for $2500. Would be huge probably the top selling camera.

Meanwhile in the real world, they are more likely to release a 1DXMK3 with quad pixel AF. Full frame internal 4K 10 bit with Log, 24MP sensor, IBIS, improved DR and a price tag of $6999. And it will sell like hot cakes. Raw output or internal? I think not... this is Canon.

If the specs match this I’ll be preordering. But they better not pull a Canon on us?

Fyi: Red Hydrogen 2 is not (Komodo)... that's clearly a different product altogether.

Near as I can tell it looks to be a accessory for the Hydrogen 2. That is a dedicated cinema accessory.  There is speculation it may be a Z-Cam competitor. I guess we'll know soon. Here are some teaser pictures.

One last thing... yes, that certainly does look like a Canon RF mount?

12 hours ago, drm said:

I would *love* to have a GFX-100. I won't buy it because it is $10k, but I would love to have one. At the other end, I have three BM Pocket4Ks. They are actually *very* good cameras at a silly low price. The lower-end price but high-spec gear is selling well and will likely do so for a good while.

The GFX-100 has been sold out since orders opened. It maybe $10k, but as a 100MP shooter at "only" $10k it's easily the cheapest game in town. 

Canon need to innovate not just in patents but with actual products. And as for why the choose to leave the smartphone sensor market to Sony and Samsung it's beyond me? 

I think today's dedicated cameras should be capable of doing all the clever tricks that smartphones and action cams can do... but much better... and they should do more of them. Not just computation, but optically also.

My smartphones and action cams can all do compelling hdr stills and video, where extreme highlights and shadows all appear exposed properly.... my dedicated cameras cannot. Always a struggle. There should be nothing that a smartphone can do imaging wise that beats a dedicated camera. Not even the cheapest dedicated camera. Or else why buy one? Which is of course exactly where we are today.

2 hours ago, Nikkor said:

I actually have a Phase One, have you tried one? Canikons are user friendly, and ok quality wise but they don't compare to a digital medium format camera.

No one is arguing that a Phase One does not have higher quality in a studio setting. But let me ask you this, would you recommend it on a safari? Is it great for shooting sports? Street photography? I suspect you would end up with many blurry 150MP images. The only medium format camera that could be passable in street use is the GFX100. But even so, it’s largely a niche camera. 

And how is the Phase One as a hybrid camera? Yeah, that’s what I thought.

For almost all photographers the Canon, Nikon, Fuji and Sony offering are far superior. And btw... how does that 150MP image look on instagram? I suspect no better than any of the much more mainstream offerings.

I heard Canon’s profits are down some 40%... and before anyone gets too excited, I also heard Sony’s profit was down over 70%. I think the only camera manufacturer that is seeing an slight increase is Fuji. 

This leads me to believe we might actually see something pretty great released by Canon in 2019-2020. Though this new A7R4 being released, while seemingly skipping the A7S3 is a complete mystery from Sony.

3 hours ago, Mako Sports said:

Apples to oranges....

That’s exactly my point. Comparing a Hasselblad or Phase One to cameras designed to be used outside of a studio is just plain silly. Sure, the medium format cameras may have an edge in ultimate image quality. But neither is a well suited street camera, travel camera or sports camera. They’re just not made for that sort of work. As I’m not a studio photographer those cameras have zero value for my use.

8 hours ago, Nikkor said:

Try a real pro camera like a phase one or a hasselblad, it will make you Laugh when you come back to a crappy canikonfushitsony

1DXMK2 is a “real pro” camera. Try shooting sports with a Phase One or Hasselblad... then we can talk.

56 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

With 7 hours work done to it? ?

The sad thing is you can get shots like that all day long straight out of camera without even trying with any prosumer/pro Canon body. Canon, Fuji, Nikon all pretty dam easy to get great results. I haven't tried the full frame Panasonic's yet. I'll take a second look at those when the S1H comes out.

1 minute ago, Mako Sports said:

A canon body with specs is definitely possible. It will just cost an arm and a leg. 1DXmkii isn't even FF 4K and its still $5500

And I love mine... can’t wait to get the Mk3