The Panasonic S1 II pricing is wrong, and so is the entire product strategy since 2018

[Andrew Reid]

Just some thoughts on the current situation.

https://www.eoshd.com/news/the-panasonic-s1-ii-pricing-is-wrong-so-is-the-entire-product-strategy/

TLDR:

You can't charge £3000+ for a 24 megapixel camera in 2025 without a flagship sensor anywhere to be seen.

Plus, they have made us wait 7 years for it.

Autofocus performance only 5th, behind Sony, Nikon, Canon, OM System.

There's still no rangefinder-style L-mount camera from Panasonic to replace the Micro Four Thirds stuff, GX80, GX9, and so on. (S9 doesn't count as it doesn't have an EVF or a proper shutter in it).

Engineering doing a great job, product planning, marketing and ergonomic design is the problem. And to add to that, sensor procurement and the too-low R&D budget since 2020.

Competition have better sensors, and lower prices, and more lenses, and more popular branding, and more popular lens mounts. Not good.

Conclusion is that Panasonic's sales may fold.

[eatstoomuchjam]

2 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Autofocus performance only 5th, behind Sony, Nikon, Canon, OM System.

Is it really better than Fuji's? 

And DJI's is arguably better too.  😅

[Cape Horn]

I don't think Panasonic intends for the introductory price to stay for long. Right now it's for the early adopters - eg S1 owners who must have the successor at all costs. I am an S1 owner but I am not looking to upgrade, not in the next couple of years. Once the initial rush clears there will be a steep drop in price (in the form of rebates). By Thanksgiving I expect it will be around $2600 or less.

[Davide DB]

On 5/14/2025 at 4:55 AM, eatstoomuchjam said:

Is it really better than Fuji's? 

And DJI's is arguably better too.  😅

Where are some real AF tests, except the YouTuber's head moving in and out of the frame?

 

[wobba]

Panasonic's launch pricing is for suckers. Just like the S9 and all the Lumix's that came before it, these will sell for 1/3 less some months later.

[MrSMW]

6 hours ago, Cape Horn said:

 

I don't think Panasonic intends for the introductory price to stay for long. Right now it's for the early adopters

 

Then it’s a bit misguided because it creates negative marketing chatter that your products are overpriced and cause probably more loss than gain of new customers.

Just price it properly in the first place and earn some, rather than lose respect.

[Andrew Reid]

The negative chatter is a real thing indeed. They have this decade long hard fought reputation for good prices and then destroy it in a blink of an eye. It also means the real 'street value' of the used S1 II bodies will be much lower than new... As in much.

Which means it will be impossible for most people who want an S1 II to justify spending £1000 more on a new one vs used one that has been a shelf queen with a shutter count of 400.

Panasonic is in a losing battle because the fewer quantities that ship, the higher the pricing needs to be to turn a profit.

This is a game they can't win as the higher the pricing, the less they sell, and the even higher the pricing will be on subsequent models.

The whole camera industry has fallen into this trap in fact.

The margin must be enormous on that bill of materials.

Meanwhile the big irony is... Sony can't sell enough of the a1 II at 7 grand.

It has been out of stock forever.

So whilst there is undoubtably a lucrative market for expensive pro cameras, Panasonic isn't in it as they have no real flagship or cutting edge sensor supply.

[eatstoomuchjam]

6 hours ago, Davide DB said:

Where are some real AF tests, except the YouTuber's head moving in and out of the frame?

 

It's definitely a fair question.  Fuji's is definitely not perfect, judging by my GFX 100 II, but it's generally usable.  That seems similar to what I've seen/heard of the S1R II and S1 II (Media Division did some pretty decent real-world tests and... they weren't outstanding)

And I'd put DJI's in a similar category, though it also requires the most comfort/familiarity, especially with the Focus Pro which uses a second camera with a second screen for control and because it's LIDAR-based, has a limited (but useful) range where focus even works at all.

They're all better than Red's, though.  Red's is in a category that I'd describe as "almost usable, but will probably break your heart if you try to rely on it."  😅

38 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Meanwhile the big irony is... Sony can't sell enough of the a1 II at 7 grand.

It has been out of stock forever.

Sure, and Fuji with the GF 100RF as well at 5 grand.  Though it's also not clear how many of them they're actually pumping out of the factory.  It doesn't seem like they're shipping in thousands upon thousands of units.

[BTM_Pix]

I feel for them a little bit.

• Full-frame mirrorless camera with a 24.1MP partially stacked CMOS sensor
• Powered by a Venus Engine for fast processing, refined colour and low noise
• Over 15 stops of dynamic range with Dual Native ISO support
• 1.6x faster Phase Hybrid AF system with 779 focus points and AI tracking
• Records uncropped 5.1K open gate video at up to 60p and 6K at 30p
• Supports 5.9K 60p and 5.8K Apple ProRes internal recording via CFexpress
• C4K and 4K video recording up to 120p in 10-bit for high frame rate capture
• 10-bit HEIF captures rich tonal detail, smaller file sizes and HDR-ready stills
• Real-time LUT preview and false colour for on-set monitoring
• Features 8-stop in-body image stabilisation without crop
• 32-bit float audio recording achieved via optional XLR adapter
• Dual card slots with CFexpress Type B and SD UHS-II support
• Supports direct USB-SSD recording for high bitrate capture and fast offloading
• Compatible with UltraSync BLUE for wireless Bluetooth timecode sync
• Blackout-free electronic burst shooting up to 70fps for fast action capture
• Tilt and vari-angle 3.0-inch LCD with 1.84M-dot resolution
• 5.76M-dot OLED EVF with 100% frame coverage and high refresh rate
• Dust and splash-resistant body, weighing only 800g
• Includes a 3-month Capture One licence in the box

After producing something with that spec, they're entitled to be a bit like..

By the same token, we are probably entitled to say "we might have been a couple of years ago and if it was cheaper".

I've said it before but the S5ii continues to be Panasonic's problem child in that it raised expectation for the 2nd generation of cameras and at a price that was pretty surprising.

That camera got the upgraders from Panasonic's MFT cameras (myself included) and this new one is asking the question "2x the price, 2x the camera?" for both the holdouts of to the MFT system and those who already moved up to the S5ii and are looking to go up again.

I think it probably is 2x the camera for some people but I can't see anyone who isn't in the L mount prison (and that is what L mount is) walking into a shop and paying 50% more for it over the Z6iii let alone paying the 10% more than a lightly used Z8.

Hard reality is that they are not Nikon, Canon or even Sony and they're going to struggle with flagship cameras.

Annoyingly for them, they can create the cameras that will attract a premium price technology wise and produce a fine image as they've been doing it for years with Leica branded versions but, again, when it comes to the other type of image they aren't Leica.

They have the opportunity to do a FujiFilm and offer an alternative but they've left them to it to pursue two companies that absolutely out heritage them and another company that  they are at the mercy of when it comes to sensors.

This will all end with someone at corporate HQ dispassionately looking at the Lumix division and striking a red pen through it.

Exactly like what happened to Samsung.

Cameras that I think they could look at doing to offer some difference would be :

New GX80 with the bulk of the GH7 inside or at the very least the GH5 and then not charge a stupid amount of money for it  as it should be possible for sub £1000.

A Super35 bridge camera with a 7x or even 5x zoom, no compromise video internals, ND and then not charge a stupid amount of money for it  as it should be possible for sub £2000.  Essentially a grown up version of the FZ2000.

I'd buy either of those and I don't think I'd be alone.

Currently, Lumix are like the smart, quirky indie girl that you fell in love with and now ten years later she's got hair extensions, fake tits, a trout pout and two ton of fillers because she wants to be a Kardashian.

 

 

 

 

[Thpriest]

I think the price is the only real problem. If they were both 400-500€ cheaper they’d probably sell a lot. Maybe this tariff stuff has altered the prices and Lumix was simply unlucky as the are the first to have to consider this with a big new launch.

I also agree that a 800-1000€ GX80 update with unlimited 4k 50p and maybe open gate would sell like hotcakes.

[MrSMW]

36 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

Currently, Lumix are like the smart, quirky indie girl that you fell in love with and now ten years later she's got hair extensions, fake tits, a trout pout and two ton of fillers because she wants to be a Kardashian.

 

I didn't and would not pay for any of that so will now be having an affair with my secretary.

[BTM_Pix]

13 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

I didn't and would not pay for any of that so will now be having an affair with my secretary.

You really have embraced the French culture.

[eatstoomuchjam]

One thought is that if Panasonic want to charge a premium for their cameras, especially in this day and age, there's a straightforward path to it.

So Panasonic/Lumix marketing folks, if you read this, here is a free suggestion:

Panasonic were never huge in cameras until the digital age (yes, I know there were 35mm cameras and no, nobody has nostalgia for the C-D353AF or the C-D900ZM).  So find an old film camera brand that people used to love, but is no longer made.  Some of the big ones have been eaten by the competitors (e.g. Hasselblad/DJI), but the people who bought Rollei are producing junk with the name - but you could also consider someone like Bronica, Agfa, or Ansco.  Or hell, Voigtlander is all lenses now.  Maybe they want to sell bodies too.  Or for film, you could try grabbing Bell & Howell from the vultures who have been using it to sell crap - or maybe Mitchell or Aaton?  Don't think I've seen a digital Mitchell.  So let's say Mitchell.

So buy or license the beloved film camera brand.  Now tweak your SOOC colors a little bit.  It doesn't have to be a lot.  Just... enough to make the images feel a little more nostalgic to people.  I dunno, maybe make them a little browner and a little lower contrast.  I'll leave the interpretation of nostalgic up to your capable engineers.

Next, instead of a body format based on the design of a 35mm camera, go for a retro-styled look more similar to a Bolex or one of the more art deco-looking super 8 cameras.  Think less "SLR" and less "box" and think more "ellipse."

Then move away from drab product names that are just a soup of meaningless letters and numbers.

Then give a proper release to the camera without getting people jazzed up in advance for something it isn't.

When you announce the new Mitchell Fox Grandeur Digital Cinema Camera featuring the exact same feature list as the S1 II, you'll have influencers across the spectrum talking about how beautiful it is and the rich heritage of Mitchell cameras.

[MrSMW]

Heritage is often very undervalued these days by some companies but they are idiots because nostalgia for the good old days (even if it wasn’t as good in reality) is HUGE.

Should have bought out Olympus or Kodak…if either of those were possible.

And then it is not simply enough to use the badge, but actually design some of that heritage into your product, marketing etc.

[PannySVHS]

2 hours ago, Thpriest said:

I also agree that a 800-1000€ GX80 update with unlimited 4k 50p and maybe open gate would sell like hotcakes.

And 10bit Hlg or log, please.

Call it the Lumix Bolex and a sister model the Lumix Bolex ND. Give it a S16, 16, 2/3, S8 and 8mm gate mode plus GH4 battery life. @eatstoomuchjam

[eatstoomuchjam]

29 minutes ago, PannySVHS said:

Call it the Lumix Bolex and a sister model the Lumix Bolex ND. Give it a S16, 16, 2/3, S8 and 8mm gate mode plus GH4 battery life

Ah, maybe, but I'm saying they could release this exact camera at the same price, but with a different brand/form factor and influencers would go crazy for it.  I'm not even trying to create my dream tiny 4k camera that uses my C and D mount lenses (that might be the altcinecam thingie).  😅

[PannySVHS]

I meant, beside being a FF camera, give it a variety of formats/gates. Wouldn't that be a jam.:) @eatstoomuchjam

[eatstoomuchjam]

15 minutes ago, PannySVHS said:

I meant, beside being a FF camera, give it a variety of formats/gates. Wouldn't that be a jam.:)

Sort of, yes, but it's only a 24 megapixel sensor.  The resolution in super 16 mode or super 8 mode would be pretty low.  You'd be at 4k in S35, and closer to 2k in M43.

1:1 crop mode on the GH7 would be one of best right now for using S16 or Super 8 lenses.  You'd still have decent resolution and probably not be at 720p or less.

[Clark Nikolai]

1 hour ago, PannySVHS said:

Call it the Lumix Bolex @eatstoomuchjam

Um... you do realize what the nickname for this might be.

[Andrew Reid]

4 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

I feel for them a little bit.

• Full-frame mirrorless camera with a 24.1MP partially stacked CMOS sensor
• Powered by a Venus Engine for fast processing, refined colour and low noise
• Over 15 stops of dynamic range with Dual Native ISO support
• 1.6x faster Phase Hybrid AF system with 779 focus points and AI tracking
• Records uncropped 5.1K open gate video at up to 60p and 6K at 30p
• Supports 5.9K 60p and 5.8K Apple ProRes internal recording via CFexpress
• C4K and 4K video recording up to 120p in 10-bit for high frame rate capture
• 10-bit HEIF captures rich tonal detail, smaller file sizes and HDR-ready stills
• Real-time LUT preview and false colour for on-set monitoring
• Features 8-stop in-body image stabilisation without crop
• 32-bit float audio recording achieved via optional XLR adapter
• Dual card slots with CFexpress Type B and SD UHS-II support
• Supports direct USB-SSD recording for high bitrate capture and fast offloading
• Compatible with UltraSync BLUE for wireless Bluetooth timecode sync
• Blackout-free electronic burst shooting up to 70fps for fast action capture
• Tilt and vari-angle 3.0-inch LCD with 1.84M-dot resolution
• 5.76M-dot OLED EVF with 100% frame coverage and high refresh rate
• Dust and splash-resistant body, weighing only 800g
• Includes a 3-month Capture One licence in the box

After producing something with that spec, they're entitled to be a bit like..

Yeah the spec is the least of the problems, and props to the crafty engineers in Japan for the wide ranging feature set.

The problem is it's equivalent in spec to the Nikon Z6 III, but that came out 1 year ago and costs £1999 new now, in the UK.

That extra £1000 for the Panasonic, the average bloke is going to question what for.

Sony a7s III also very close in spec, but that came out nearly 5 years ago (and itself was a bit late, a big gap from the a7s II)... At least the S1 II is 6K, and 24 megapixel... as 12mp seems very long in the tooth now.

The EOS R5 is also around £1999 now... at least used in good nick... That we know had a trouble start to life. But the spec still holds up today and for £1000 less than the S1 II you're getting 8K RAW, 45 megapixel, Canon colour and so on...

4 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

By the same token, we are probably entitled to say "we might have been a couple of years ago and if it was cheaper".

2022 was the time to launch this... Getting it out before the same sensor comes along in a cheaper Nikon, would have been a half decent plan.

4 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

I've said it before but the S5ii continues to be Panasonic's problem child in that it raised expectation for the 2nd generation of cameras and at a price that was pretty surprising.

That camera got the upgraders from Panasonic's MFT cameras (myself included) and this new one is asking the question "2x the price, 2x the camera?" for both the holdouts of to the MFT system and those who already moved up to the S5ii and are looking to go up again.

I think the S1 II is aimed at existing Panasonic pro customers.

It's almost if they have given up trying to appeal to the rest who are locked into a non-L lens mount.

Also interesting is that the S1 II didn't form the basis for the SL3-S, and Panasonic didn't give Leica the fundamentals and sensor from the S1R II. A big change in strategy, that.

4 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

I think it probably is 2x the camera for some people but I can't see anyone who isn't in the L mount prison (and that is what L mount is) walking into a shop and paying 50% more for it over the Z6iii let alone paying the 10% more than a lightly used Z8.

Lightly used Z8 is now £500 less than the S1 II new, and you can slap E-mount lenses on it.

4 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

They have the opportunity to do a FujiFilm and offer an alternative but they've left them to it to pursue two companies that absolutely out heritage them and another company that  they are at the mercy of when it comes to sensors.

The other problem I have with it, is that I really wish they'd add a bit of Fuji-style flare to proceedings, I am so bored of all cameras looking and feeling the same. And in terms of ergonomics the S5 II body was always going to be a cheaper feeling a7 IV. The buttons are not as well laid out, the jog wheel is spongy and the finish of the magnesium alloy chassis makes it look and feel shiny and cheaper than it actually is. Where's my Fuji looks like this...

4 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

This will all end with someone at corporate HQ dispassionately looking at the Lumix division and striking a red pen through it.

Exactly like what happened to Samsung.

Yeah this is what I fear too...

Which is why I'm so harsh on them.

They need to be doing a lot better than they are, strategically, creatively and everything... And this of course, is a different angle to take on the S1 II than most people who buy it will take... They just want to shoot with it and explore the new features, and fair play to 'em.

4 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

Cameras that I think they could look at doing to offer some difference would be :

New GX80 with the bulk of the GH7 inside or at the very least the GH5 and then not charge a stupid amount of money for it  as it should be possible for sub £1000.

Honestly the GX80 and GX9 are mega popular on eBay with the instagram crowd, they definitely all these years later are proving to be what people want in terms of a small body design.

The LX100 also, has seen hefty used price inflation.

4 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

A Super35 bridge camera with a 7x or even 5x zoom, no compromise video internals, ND and then not charge a stupid amount of money for it  as it should be possible for sub £2000.  Essentially a grown up version of the FZ2000.

I'd buy either of those and I don't think I'd be alone.

Currently, Lumix are like the smart, quirky indie girl that you fell in love with and now ten years later she's got hair extensions, fake tits, a trout pout and two ton of fillers because she wants to be a Kardashian.