Jump to content

Samsung NX1 vs Canon C300


Andrew Reid
 Share

Recommended Posts

I see engineers set up charts and crap and they still can't get a solid assessment of DR. 

​I wouldn't call any of the bloggers you see posting DR- measurements actual engineers. That doesn't mean they won't get it in the ballpark.

There are methods of doing proper DR testing but bloggers usually test one camera and scour the net for other results which is not very scientific.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

​I wouldn't call any of the bloggers you see posting DR- measurements actual engineers. That doesn't mean they won't get it in the ballpark.

There are methods of doing proper DR testing but bloggers usually test one camera and scour the net for other results which is not very scientific.

​Like I said, I see actual engineers doing these tests. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

​Like I said, they are not engineers (though I have no idea what tests you are referencing as you posted no examples and quoted nothing). And why does the quote system claim I quoted Julian??

​Ah I see. You have no idea what tests I'm referencing, but youre nonetheless certain they aren't engineers doing the tests. Okay got it. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have the Gh4 and the NX1 and i see no more aliasing or moire on the NX1 (I use -10 sharpness but there is at least as much as details than when i use the Gh4 with sharpness at 0 and NR at -5). But since the NX1 has more details than gh4, you can see moire or aliasing more easily with a 1080p display.

Try to zoom on your videos with your media player or to use the view at 100% and the aliasing will vanish in the most cases.
 

50% 

50%.thumb.jpg.e99fee4752b68c1c5082ccc121

100%

100%.thumb.jpg.181b44a767ca701b6f8d9d4c7

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Administrators

I just ordered an NX1 this afternoon, and I can't wait to use it. This should be a significant upgrade from my hacked GH1, which is now a fossil.

​In many ways it's the spiritual successor to the GH1.

Been a while since I could say that a tiny mirrorless camera could not just keep pace with a $15,000 cinema camera, but outright beat it on image quality overall.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

CR reported that they are indeed dropping the price of C300 Mark II to compete with FS7. They are saving 5D4 for last, all the way till August...this gives them enough time to milk dedicated stills guys with 5DS and dedicated video guys with C300M2, before finally releasing something for the hybrid crowd. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the write up Andrew! 

The NX1 seems to do a lot of things right, but isn't quite there... yet. I'd like to Samsung fixing the existing issues first before focusing on new features. 

Two questions about the NX1: 

How does the new 1080p Pro mode compare to other 1080p cameras?

How's the 4K rolling shutter compared to other cameras (A7s, GH4 etc)?

​The new 1080p Pro mode is really good and the 120fps mode is better to that of Gh4.

The 4k rolling shutter is bad but if you move or pan slowly, there is no real problem.

However,  even with the GammaDR, im not really impressed by the dynamic range, the highlights burn very easily.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Administrators

Try exposing to protect the highlights a little more, and pushing the blacks up to +10 with Master Black Level and the contrast -5 in Gamma DR, don't go lower as it will start messing colour up.

I still think dynamic range is in line with the others. It's very usable.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Try exposing to protect the highlights a little more, and pushing the blacks up to +10 with Master Black Level and the contrast -5 in Gamma DR, don't go lower as it will start messing colour up.

I still think dynamic range is in line with the others. It's very usable.

​It is maybe in line with native Gh4, 5DIII and Co.... (though I still personally think not). It is not in line with the C300, 1DC, A7s etc.

I really can't see why you are trying to push that idea, it's not even close.

 

This post shows it pretty clear to me.

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?332463-Samsung-NX1-getting-log-like-setting&p=1986517484&viewfull=1#post1986517484

Link to comment
Share on other sites

​The new 1080p Pro mode is really good and the 120fps mode is better to that of Gh4.

The 4k rolling shutter is bad but if you move or pan slowly, there is no real problem.

​Thanks!
Is the quality of the 120fps mode the same as the other 1080p modes? Or is the new 1080p Pro mode only available at normal frame rates?

Andrew: How noisy are the shadows when you push the Master Black Level to +10? I recall that the results weren't that great when pushing the GH4s Master Pedestal up (in fact most people said that the Master Pedestal adjustment of the GH4 is pretty useless) but considering that the NX1s blacks were almost completely free of noise, I imagine that they still look very decent when pushing the black level to +10?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is what Samuel H, who I tend to trust when it comes to DR, says later on in that thread:

I couldn't resist, I went through the prores files to see exactly where we stand... 

Highlights: NX1, sky and buildings are acceptable at f/16, and not a bit earlier. Same level of "acceptable" on the a7S is at f/6.3. That's a 2.7 stops advantage in the highlights for the a7S.

Shadows: NX1, couch is perfectly fine and usable at f/22, with very little noise even after bringing it up a bit to see it clearer (though close to clipping in any case, so I guess at f/32 it would be gone). a7S is a lot noisier in the shadows, to get that same level of low noise it needs to be at f/11. Or at f/16 with denoiser in post. That's a 2-stops advantage for the NX1, 1 stop if you're not afraid of denoising in post.

So, in total, I'd say the a7S has around 1.3 stops better DR than the NX1, which puts the NX1 around the middle of the table, ahead of the 5D3 but behind the NEX-5N. And in any case, clearly ahead of the GH4.

Now, the interesting part:
* The NX1 seems to have the same sharpness as the GH4, but a lot less noise. I guess it's going to be a monster of a camera for green screen work... if the codec doesn't throw away color resolution.
* You're shooting 0-255, and ending up with a harsh highlight clip that happens at least one stop sooner than with any other camera I have tested. It's possible that the software you're using to convert H.265 to ProRes is treating the data as 235, and causing this ugly highlight clip. This happens with Sony footage that is not slog2, and severely limits DR if your workflow is not adequate (if you just load the file to Premiere, it clips around a stop sooner than it needs to, and in a much uglier way too; a 16-235 levels filter fixes this). I know there are not many options right now for H.265 footage, so, for the time being... check if 16-235 gives you more DR, it could very well be the case (also in the shadows, but it performs well there so my hopes are mostly in the highlights).


IF the 235 thing brings back one stop of DR --- AND -- the NX500 has the same image quality of the NX1 --- AND --- zyoptics brings out a lens turbo II for the NX mount... a Samsung may be waiting for me in my near future 
(I'd be using the a7S for portraits and medium shots, and leave the NX500 on the Nebula 4000 with some lightweight lens -probably the cheap zoom, as a 16mm f/3.5 OIS prime- for wide shots)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well you see from my test what you see, so it's up to you who you believe!

***

What about resolution? $1500 vs $15000, not bad is it!? Or do you think the C300 is way ahead on that too!?

​Your test used REC 709 on the C300, so yea... I see what I see from various C300 tests at that gamma setting, compressed DR. Like I said before, I would love the NX1 to have 11.5 stops. But you are saying it has half a stop less than C300 at REC790, which is about 10 stops max.

Sure, the resolution is great. I said that in my first post. The resolution on some smart phones is better than the C300 too, it doesn't equate to being able to "outright beat it on image quality overall." either, imho.

Overall image quality is subjective though, so it is fine to like whatever you like. I'm just saying that my opinion is the C300 beats it hands down for DR... Nothing more, nothing less.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

​Thanks!Is the quality of the 120fps mode the same as the other 1080p modes? Or is the new 1080p Pro mode only available at normal frame rates?

Andrew: How noisy are the shadows when you push the Master Black Level to +10? I recall that the results weren't that great when pushing the GH4s Master Pedestal up (in fact most people said that the Master Pedestal adjustment of the GH4 is pretty useless) but considering that the NX1s blacks were almost completely free of noise, I imagine that they still look very decent when pushing the black level to +10?

​Here is a test with the two modes (30fps and 120fps) and yes Pro mode is available with both frame rate :
https://www.dropbox.com/s/sidw6aoooo5a9af/SAM_0360%40120fps.MP4?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ssscqjv4sst344p/SAM_0361%4030fps.MP4?dl=0

Thanks Andrew for your tips, i will try it but i haven't seen difference between Gamma DR and Standard mode.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Very interesting to read about the 0-255 vs 16-235 over at dvxuser. Shooting in 16-235 might result in a higher dynamic range. The reason for this is that the transcoding software treats the footage as 0-235 footage and thus throws away all the detail in the highlights, leading to harsh clipping and lower DR. There are some files uploaded that compare the 16-235 footage to the 0-255 footage. I haven't checked it out yet (downloading right now) but it seems like the 16-235 footage does result in nicer imagines and a higher DR. 

Andrew: Any chance you could test this? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...