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Andrew Reid

Canon 1D C used price slips under £5000 - and why I decided to take the gamble and get one

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so doug`s comments made you tick? :-)

very eager to read about your findings...

but please don`t make the same mistake and write everything in the 1dc`s favor just because it was so expensive! :-)

​Haha I can see the temptation already. All the criticisms still stand from my review here, I better re-read it to remind myself of the monster I'm dealing with here. Horrible ergonomics for video!! http://www.eoshd.com/2013/04/the-canon-1d-c-review/

But I've always loved the image...ahh.

I can stick two 256GB cards in there to give me 2 hours recording time, then convert the footage over night to ProRes LT to make it more fluid to edit and smaller to archive (300Mbit compared to 500Mbit)

The NX1 & GH4 can be a good B-cameras to it... stick the Cookes on them and let them roll for hours in H.265 / H.264 when I really need to shoot excessive amounts of extra b-roll 4K material.

The 1D C makes a good A-camera because it has the dynamic range with C-LOG, the 422 internal, 1.3x crop, better low light.

The A7S with Shogun is amazing but I wanted that image internally. Sometimes I can't shoot with the Shogun due to rigging reasons, or reasons of stealth or reasons of the bloody Berlin weather wondo, when it's raining all the time ;)

But really it was the 'new lower price' and the thought of replacing my 5D Mark III that made it more palatable as a £3200 upgrade.

I will have to sell some gear now to fill the hole in my accounts!! Anyone want a D750!?

 

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs

The Compression method of A7s seems much better vs 1D C in camera and of course to external recorder vs 1D C internal.

 

Honestly I agree on buying a Sony A7s or an Fs700 or Fs7

 

 

In the Music Video world most prefer RED or 5D Mark III for that lovely FF. I feel the 5D lineup will be here forever as they continue to improve the camera. Sony A7s is special as well, there's just something magical about FF sensor that simply cannot be replicated with a smaller sensor camera.

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Hopefully Canon's market analysis shows that it will be highly profitable to release the 5D4 with 4K (internal). While there is no 'one camera for everything' yet, the 5D3 is currently the best value stills and video camera for people and skintones. Just turning off the extra Gaussian blur and saving to 422 10-bit H.264 on the 5D3 hardware would be amazing (ML RAW like quality with small files and easy workflow).

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4K is indeed helpful for landscape, greenscreen, and post work, however color and skintones are more valuable any time people will be in the shot. It's the same reason the C100 outsold/outrented the FS700, and likely why the C100 II (1080p) will do the same against the FS7 (4K).

The only 4K material I can watch is on youtube (or vimeo download, on 2.6K monitors). I'm a tech savvy consumer, even have a 3DTV (Samsung), however there's no compelling reason to get a 4K TV yet. That will happen when Apple TV, Amazon Prime, etc., have 4K content. Netflix has some UHD content which can be watched on certain 4K TVs: https://help.netflix.com/en/node/13444 . Upgrading from SD to HD was a huge improvement. HD to UHD isn't nearly the same effect unless one has a monster TV and you sit close enough.

Some directors apparently aren't into resolution at all: Interstellar in IMAX (top 70mm theater: TCL Chinese in Hollywood) was very soft for most of the picture. I thought perhaps there was a projector issue, so I watched it again with another group of friends in digital 4K: it was just as soft (but not any softer vs. IMAX). At least on the second viewing they had fixed the audio issues.

For delivery (vs. post flexibility), resolution is important to a point, but all we have to do is look at the top cameras for filmmaking, TV, and commercials (where money is made from motion pictures): ARRI dominates by a wide margin with 1080p cameras (Alexa/Amira). I would chose the Amira's 3.2k upscale to UHD/4K over the 6K Red Dragon any day if the budget allowed. Skyfall in 4K (uprezzed Alexa) looked sharper, more detailed, and with nicer color than Interstellar shot in 70mm IMAX! I just watched Gone Girl shot and edited in 6K on Apple TV (1080p) and felt they could have done better with the Alexa. If our eyes are watering because the image is so soft (5D3 without post sharpening with wide/landscape shots), then resolution becomes an issue. Color = emotion, which is the number one point for narrative, not resolution. I just ordered a Tiffen Black Pro Mist 1/4 to soften the A7S, lower contrast slightly, and provide some glow in-camera (saves time and looks a bit different vs. doing something similar in post).

It would be helpful for your camera reviews to include extensive skin tone and people tests, graded with calibrated monitors using challenging lighting (cheap LEDs and fluorescents, mixed lighting) as well as continuous spectrum lights (sun, incandescent, remote phosphor LED etc.).

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What a nice post. But you're wrong!

4K is important on a DSLR because all of the sensors are >4K in resolution.

Once you start throwing tons of image data away to get these high resolution photographic chips down to 2MP for crappy 1080p you lose a TON of everything else, colour included.

Anyone want to go back to standard def by the way? Nope, thought not.

So my message to the manufacturers is clear. If the 5D 4 is 1080p, it's a no buy from me, and I don't care if it makes coffee, it's still a no buy from me.

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What a nice post. But you're wrong!

4K is important on a DSLR because all of the sensors are >4K in resolution.

Once you start throwing tons of image data away to get these high resolution photographic chips down to 2MP for crappy 1080p you lose a TON of everything else, colour included.

Anyone want to go back to standard def by the way? Nope, thought not.

So my message to the manufacturers is clear. If the 5D 4 is 1080p, it's a no buy from me, and I don't care if it makes coffee, it's still a no buy from me.

<pre-humor>What if we needed an "Internet License", kind of like a Driver's Licence, where we all had to learn how to be friendly, helpful, and non-confrontational before being allowed to post. That would make a much nicer environment to discuss ideas.</pre-humor>

http://xkcd.com/386/

Back to the point, wouldn't you agree that the A7S does a nice job with mostly-artifact-free downscaled 1080p? 5D3 H.264 is as clean and alias free as can be, right? Canon's clearly blurring it before compression, however 5D3 ML RAW has sufficient detail and color information, right? If Canon took the ML RAW buffer and debayered it to AMaZE or ACR level quality before 422 10-bit H.264 compression we'd have a winning combination. I don't currently have a need for 4K beyond what the GH4 can do, and if Canon released a 5D4 which could take the place of both the 5D3 and A7S, I'll sell the 5D3's and A7S. While I'd prefer a 4K 5D4 (5D4K!), I doubt Canon is reading blog posts to determine product direction (likely based on analytics from sales and interviews with pro filmmakers). 

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 I just watched Gone Girl shot and edited in 6K on Apple TV (1080p) and felt they could have done better with the Alexa.  

​Red Dragon, not Alexa...... Simple typo, but we must still be clear! 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2267998/technical?ref_=tt_dt_spec

 

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Hi j.f.r- 6K refers to the Red Dragon, Alexa is 2.8K (+ 3.4K Open Gate: http://www.arrimedia.com/news/view/48/alexa-xt-open-gate). Sorry if I wasn't clear- I think Gone Girl would have looked better if shot on Alexa (better color science, and IMO, an enhanced emotional effect), even though the camera is much lower resolution (2.8K/3.4K for Alexa vs 6K for Red Dragon). Where resolution can have a dramatic, powerful emotional effect is for wide establishing landscape shots as with the "8K" F65 in Oblivion (really 6K). The color and skintones in Oblivion are also first rate (as is the music/sound): currently the number one demo for my home theater. At the highest end (F35, F65, (but not F55 or below)), Sony has produced cameras with first rate color science. Sony could do better color in the same way Canon could provide better features, but for whatever business reasons, they're holding back for now.

Nice article on 6K editing of Dragon footage with Premiere Pro CC: http://blogs.adobe.com/premierepro/2014/10/gone-girl-marks-yet-another-milestone-for-adobe-premiere-pro-cc.html

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​Haha I can see the temptation already. All the criticisms still stand from my review here, I better re-read it to remind myself of the monster I'm dealing with here. Horrible ergonomics for video!! http://www.eoshd.com/2013/04/the-canon-1d-c-review/

But I've always loved the image...ahh.

I can stick two 256GB cards in there to give me 2 hours recording time, then convert the footage over night to ProRes LT to make it more fluid to edit and smaller to archive (300Mbit compared to 500Mbit)

The NX1 & GH4 can be a good B-cameras to it... stick the Cookes on them and let them roll for hours in H.265 / H.264 when I really need to shoot excessive amounts of extra b-roll 4K material.

The 1D C makes a good A-camera because it has the dynamic range with C-LOG, the 422 internal, 1.3x crop, better low light.

The A7S with Shogun is amazing but I wanted that image internally. Sometimes I can't shoot with the Shogun due to rigging reasons, or reasons of stealth or reasons of the bloody Berlin weather wondo, when it's raining all the time ;)

But really it was the 'new lower price' and the thought of replacing my 5D Mark III that made it more palatable as a £3200 upgrade.

I will have to sell some gear now to fill the hole in my accounts!! Anyone want a D750!?

 

​well... you know my problem...

always looking for that little b-cam that can go seamlessly with an alexa, epic or f65...

just a couple of frames here, a second there, uncomplicated and reasonably small, one step below an extra epic body from the rental house.

by uncomplicated i mean that it should not be a nightmare to expose, with 500 different approaches for every setup, millions of menus to go through, and always haunted by that erie feeling that you forgot to set something way down in the menu jungle.

i don`t want to spend every lunch break with the dit :-)

shoots are stress and i have a million other things to care about, besides camera set ups, codecs, etc.

on the last shoots the a7s worked quite well on car interiors etc.

but looking at the setup now with the shogun attached this thing became quite a beast. and the hdmi cable that sticks out 10cm is an accident waiting to happen, especially when you`re not sitting under a tree doing a time lapse of a mushroom.

as you can imagine, my cnc is already spinning up for the shogun cage/armour, it needs a proper hdmi safety and is much too weak for a tough shoot. will email you pictures...

so for me a used 1dc is quite an attractive option, could use my 058w as a finder, not to mention the tons of L glass that sit on my shelf.

but before i make that decision it would be good to know if it is only marginally better or a real advantage over the a7s.

and andrew, one more thing, can`t you do a post about hdmi cables? i`ve been searching my ass off for decent ones, even bought the atomos cables (that don`t fit into the a7s cable safety, nor the movcam cage!) plus i never seem to find cables that have the right angle etc.. for the shogun for example the best cable for me would come with a 90 degree angle to the right and then go down directly to the camera.

 

best,

 

wondo

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Andrew , you own the best camera there is! i think you will fall in love with it, both for stills and video,its a winner.

well done! and all your beautiful lenses are going to shine in there

love and merry xmass

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Guest Ebrahim Saadawi

What a nice post. But you're wrong!

 

​No he's not wrong. Just a different opinion from yours. All things being equal 4K is better than 1080p, thing are never equal, it's the whole point.

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after some more testing with andrew's hints, the A7S indeed can be less noisy than the 1DC in the range between ISO 25.000 and 200.000.  but thats a range that still is so noisy in the A7S, that i don't know which commercial work would make sense to include this.  when it comes to the relevant ISOs of 3200 and 6400 that most people can't use on cameras like the GH4, both the A7S and 1DC are really better, but not much different from each other.    so the A7S with its extreme ISO range advantage is like all other facts to the 1DC - you will always find a camera which is cheaper, smaller, with more photo megapixels etc.  but all those cameras have at least one significant less feature.  a pentax 645z or nikon d810 doesnt shoot 4k.  a red camera or gh4 isnt made for lowlight.  an a7s is no real usable pro photo camera.  this makes the 1DC the best all in one package which masters all situations pretty good, especially in combination with a top monitor that has focus peaking.  probably the 5D4 has 4K video, but no canon log.  and probably the 50MP canon in 2015 does not have good 4K video at all.  a C300/2 might have great 4K, but will be expensive and is no photo camera.  so it's not unlikely that by the end of 2015, the 1DC still is the best all in one tool at least from canon.  if nikon brings a competitor like a D4 with 4K, i doubt it would have a swivel screen and focus peaking and will be extremely better than a 1DC.  only 4K60p would do that.  the medium format companies seem to be a few years away from 4K video.  the sony A7 update cameras might not include an all in one model.  the list can go on, but right now there is no "one camera for everything" in sight.  this is why canon can justify a pretty high price for the current "all in one" leader 1DC at the moment.

 

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 when it comes to the relevant ISOs of 3200 and 6400 that most people can't use on cameras like the GH4

​It depends, I shoot a lot in 4k @ 3200 iso on my gh4 at dark evening receptions at weddings and when downscaled to 1080p it looks just fine to me as the grain gets smaller as well during that downscaling, I even shoot at 6400 iso when needed without having to use neatvideo, there is fine grain then but again it's nearly not as noticeable as 3200 iso was on my first dslr, the 550d which looked pretty awefull.

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​well... you know my problem...

always looking for that little b-cam that can go seamlessly with an alexa, epic or f65...

just a couple of frames here, a second there, uncomplicated and reasonably small, one step below an extra epic body from the rental house.

by uncomplicated i mean that it should not be a nightmare to expose, with 500 different approaches for every setup, millions of menus to go through, and always haunted by that erie feeling that you forgot to set something way down in the menu jungle.

i don`t want to spend every lunch break with the dit :-)

shoots are stress and i have a million other things to care about, besides camera set ups, codecs, etc.

on the last shoots the a7s worked quite well on car interiors etc.

but looking at the setup now with the shogun attached this thing became quite a beast. and the hdmi cable that sticks out 10cm is an accident waiting to happen, especially when you`re not sitting under a tree doing a time lapse of a mushroom.

as you can imagine, my cnc is already spinning up for the shogun cage/armour, it needs a proper hdmi safety and is much too weak for a tough shoot. will email you pictures...

so for me a used 1dc is quite an attractive option, could use my 058w as a finder, not to mention the tons of L glass that sit on my shelf.

but before i make that decision it would be good to know if it is only marginally better or a real advantage over the a7s.

and andrew, one more thing, can`t you do a post about hdmi cables? i`ve been searching my ass off for decent ones, even bought the atomos cables (that don`t fit into the a7s cable safety, nor the movcam cage!) plus i never seem to find cables that have the right angle etc.. for the shogun for example the best cable for me would come with a 90 degree angle to the right and then go down directly to the camera.

 

best,

 

wondo

​I think the 1D C ends up being a lot more bullet proof. The A7S + Shogun feels a bit jellyfied, like it hasn't quite settled into a workflow. I took the A7S out today and the first thing that's wonky is the Metabones adapter. Buggy with the Sigma 35/50 1.4 and Tamron 24-70 2.8 lenses, and still not right with some of my Canon L stuff either. This is latest hardware and firmware so no excuses. The Shogun's screen had appalling visibility in daylight. I felt really let down by this after all the promise of the 4K recording. You'd think for the price they would have got the basics right like this? I am getting just 45 mins off the supplied battery. It is a light piece of kit but doesn't end up light when you need a v-lock battery to power it through a shoot does it!? The A7S is small but the screen is huge. Feels inbalanced. All in all a frustrating day.

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1D C is still a great choice if you work professional in photography & film, reliability & image quality is what you need when you work in all kinds of weather and locations,

 

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