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Complete list of 4K cameras for filmmakers


Andrew Reid
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11 hours ago, Matt James Smith ? said:

I’ve been shooting with mine consistently since 2016. It’s a fantastic camera when you know it’s quirks and limitations. No good for low light or for matching with shallow DOF footage, but the codec is rock solid, it grades beautifully and the colours pop. Slap a bit of film concert on XC10 footage and it looks very S16- like.

The IS is incredible - steady handheld footage at 480mm (in 2x crop mode)! - and it’s form factor is great. Canon Rumors has suggested a few times Xanon is working on an interchangeable lens version. Canon even filed a patent for an XC10 body with a custom speedbooster! Is it  possible this will be the first RF-mount cinema camera??


Agree with most of that Andrew (see my post above covering some of what you said). It’s not up to 2020 standards. Matthias Burling pointed out the internal ND is only really to compensate for the fact the aperture only drops down to f11. I always use a vari ND too. Disagree about 1080 though - it gets really mushy if you push it at all. 
There may still be a sequel though - Canon has some interesting patents out there. 

I’m not technical enough to explain it but the XC10 image reminds me a lot of the Fuji’s. Compared to other Canon’s it has quite a filmic look, but not as much colour separation.

It’s a flawed camera but very unique and the image can be lovely.

 

5 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

I like the XC-10 as a concept. But it needed a sequel.

I would caution against bothering with it in 2020. Far better results can be had by putting the Fuji 18-135mm on an X-T4.

Neil Matsumoto did a great review of the XC10. Have a look at the cons... https://***URL removed***/reviews/crossing-the-bridge-canon-xc10-review

No Dual Pixel AF on the XC10. I found the AF to be very hesitant in 4K. It did have a decent 1080/60p mode with very capable stabilisation in that mode, but the stabilisation in 4K was nowhere near as impressive, and far less impressive than an X-T4 in 2020.

Detail in 4K is a bit scratchy. Looks pixel binned even though it isn't.

Low light is quite poor and stills are JPEG only. No RAW mode of any sort!!

The screen is nice but the loupe a bit daft and blocks the controls. No EVF.

The ND filter is quite weak, so in sunlight you need to add extra which defeats the whole point of the built in one :)

Also the lens is quite slow especially at long end.

But it was a concept that deserved a bigger effort from Canon and it never got it!

Bit like 1D C didn't!

So yeah - X-T4 a way better shot getter, with much larger S35 sensor, and optics in a different league. Ergonomically and with regards 5 axis IBIS it's also a lot nicer to use than the XC-10. The AF is far better, which is important for run & gun.

 

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6 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

 

No Dual Pixel AF on the XC10. I found the AF to be very hesitant in 4K. It did have a decent 1080/60p mode with very capable stabilisation in that mode, but the stabilisation in 4K was nowhere near as impressive, and far less impressive than an X-T4 in 2020.

Detail in 4K is a bit scratchy. Looks pixel binned even though it isn't.

Low light is quite poor and stills are JPEG only. No RAW mode of any sort!!

The screen is nice but the loupe a bit daft and blocks the controls. No EVF.

The ND filter is quite weak, so in sunlight you need to add extra which defeats the whole point of the built in one :)

Also the lens is quite slow especially at long end.

 

Yeah but apart from all that ;)

It would be interesting if they did a refresh of it using an M50 or whatever to base it on. To have more range, I could probably live with the 18-150mm being the fixed lens as it being a bit slow would be offset by it being an APS-C camera.

Not that I am in any need whatsoever of another camera of any description of course.

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I quite like the look of Canon's older zooms... the original 24-105 F4L and the even more past it 28-80mm F2.8-4L

Pop them on an X-T4 and you have the XC-10 look with bells on and better AF too :)

But I miss the XC10's "inventive" form factor and small size, especially the lens - which was lovely to use mechanically speaking

Maybe it is worth giving the XC-10 another go if I find it cheap

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11 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

I quite like the look of Canon's older zooms... the original 24-105 F4L

I sometimes run the original 24-105 on my C100MkII, and although getting focus (even with peaking) can be a challenge on this lens, when things are right, the images are fantastic.  

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1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

Maybe it is worth giving the XC-10 another go if I find it cheap

Therein lies the problem, the buggers refuse to shift to that "oh go on let's have a go" level !

I keep meaning to get the V-LOG upgrade my FZ2000 as the camera itself edges the XC10 in terms of lens speed, ND range etc and is certainly a cheaper used price for anyone looking for an all rounder.

There aren't masses of V-LOG examples of it on YouTube but I just grabbed a screenshot of this random one and did a quick correction and even on a low res grab like this it can certainly be pushed around a bit.

410860154_FZ2000vlog.thumb.jpg.a774b792637b1eb2571eb58527216c8b.jpg

 

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FZ2000, RX10 III both good alternatives. The RX10 III has a great lens, and superb looking 240fps

FZ2000 probably much improved with V-LOG. Did it get a bitrate bump along with it?

The cheapest XC10 I have seen so far has been £950 on ebay. If it gets down to £700 I may revisit

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16 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

FZ2000 probably much improved with V-LOG. Did it get a bitrate bump along with it?

Not that I'm aware of.

I used the FZ on quite a few work jobs but it was all field edited fast turnaround in LumaFusion so it wasn't really practical to be using V-LOG hence why I still haven't bought it.

Not sure whether installing it activates a monitoring LUT either.

I think I should give it a go with EOSHD Pro Color when I get a chance.

16 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

The cheapest XC10 I have seen so far has been £950 on ebay. If it gets down to £700 I may revisit

Yeah, £500 is my alert point but they show no sign of getting down to that level.

Probably one to watch out for on CEX though..... 

 

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Here's another shot entirely on the XC10. It doesn't show the camera at its best image quality wise, but it's the perfect use-case for it's strengths. Last year I shot the Miner's Gala with a C100ii and the difference in lugging that around all day in huge crowds, with less focal length versatility, is night-and-day.

Keep your eye out for Ken Loach sticking it to the man, and Jeremy Corbyn trying to do the YMCA!

 

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On 5/29/2020 at 8:20 PM, BTM_Pix said:

Therein lies the problem, the buggers refuse to shift to that "oh go on let's have a go" level !

I keep meaning to get the V-LOG upgrade my FZ2000 as the camera itself edges the XC10 in terms of lens speed, ND range etc and is certainly a cheaper used price for anyone looking for an all rounder.

There aren't masses of V-LOG examples of it on YouTube but I just grabbed a screenshot of this random one and did a quick correction and even on a low res grab like this it can certainly be pushed around a bit.

410860154_FZ2000vlog.thumb.jpg.a774b792637b1eb2571eb58527216c8b.jpg

 

Not to belittle the FZ2000 but the thing that sets the XC10 image apart is a 305mbps 4:2:2 ALL-I 4K codec with C-log. C-log is the best 8bit log there is. V-log just never really worked in 8bit - esp at 100mbps 4:2:0 inter frame. Banding is pretty horrendous and colours mushy in my experience (I had V-log on my GH4). But of course I’m biased! Just saying there’s a reason the XC10 image is special. 

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18 minutes ago, Matt James Smith ? said:

Not to belittle the FZ2000 

Belittle away, I have no emotional investment in the FZ2000 ;)

As I say, I got it for specific jobs (small vignettes of pre-match build ups at stadium and for live streamed press conferences) where the overall feature set of it was more appropriate for what I personally needed in a versatile allrounder, particularly the faster lens with the longer reach and the additional ND.

I agree about the XC10 codec but for my purposes the FZ2000 was fine as, for the small films, I would shoot in 1080p (which also avoids the bugbear of the crop in 4K) so the 200Mbps ALL-I was perfectly adequate and for the press conferences the 4:2:2 10-bit HDMI output was more than adequate for the livestream encoder it was being sent to :)

Like I said originally though, all the output I've seen from the XC10 still keeps it on my radar when the price is right.

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5 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

Belittle away, I have no emotional investment in the FZ2000 ;)

As I say, I got it for specific jobs (small vignettes of pre-match build ups at stadium and for live streamed press conferences) where the overall feature set of it was more appropriate for what I personally needed in a versatile allrounder, particularly the faster lens with the longer reach and the additional ND.

I agree about the XC10 codec but for my purposes the FZ2000 was fine as, for the small films, I would shoot in 1080p (which also avoids the bugbear of the crop in 4K) so the 200Mbps ALL-I was perfectly adequate and for the press conferences the 4:2:2 10-bit HDMI output was more than adequate for the livestream encoder it was being sent to :)

Like I said originally though, all the output I've seen from the XC10 still keeps it on my radar when the price is right.

I guess V-log may well be worth a try if your'e using it with the HD intra codec, or via HDMI.

Beefy bitrate doesn't get enough credit IMO. It can make a massive difference. The GH2 was vastly improved with the hack. The EOS M video is great in h264 if you use the ML bitrate hack.The C100 is much nicer with prores external recording, even though it remains 8 bit. Even the XC10 image is noticeably superior at 305mbps vs the lighter 205mbps option. The reduction of motion artefacts and finer noise always makes for way more organic image. I'd be interested to see some FZ2000 HD intra footage - imagine I may prefer it to the 4K.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 5/28/2020 at 9:22 PM, Matt James Smith ? said:

It’s just an XC10 with a plug for the C300mkii’s XLR unit. Otherwise it’s basically the same camera.

I think that change for the XC15 was quite a notably significant update, especially for their target market as it allows them to easily run audio themselves. (which is highly likely they would be on any shoot where a XC10/XC15 is the A Cam)

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On 6/18/2020 at 12:52 PM, IronFilm said:

I think that change for the XC15 was quite a notably significant update, especially for their target market as it allows them to easily run audio themselves. (which is highly likely they would be on any shoot where a XC10/XC15 is the A Cam)

It's still just an XC10 with an XLR plug - i.e. a 1st gen attempt at something completely new that needs a lot of usability improvements.You can get perfectly good audio via 3.5mm these days anyway. A rode wireless go and/or Videomic NTG easily takes the audio to the same level as the image from that camera. If you need better audio than that, you probably also need a better camera. I'd far rather an EVF, a stronger ND, a shorter constant-aperture lens or an improved UI (ability to change ISO, aperture, audio levels, etc. easily) than the XLR jack of the XC15. It's a fantastic concept of a camera, I hope they continue the line.

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