Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Andrew Reid

Camera company staff dramas on GlassDoor

Recommended Posts

22 hours ago, Emanuel said:

Frankly, I have no patience for certain arguments, I simply have not. I'm sorry. Especially when there's a Z cam version for under than a grand, today.

 

The Z Cam version of the BMPCC4K is two grand. 

The E2C which is sub $1K is kinda like if the GH4 sensor was put into the E2 body, so you get all the goodness and power of the E2 ecosystem but then "held back" by the GH4 sensor (while the full E2 for $2K has the GH5S/BMPCC4K sensor in it).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs
6 hours ago, IronFilm said:

 

The Z Cam version of the BMPCC4K is two grand. 

The E2C which is sub $1K is kinda like if the GH4 sensor was put into the E2 body, so you get all the goodness and power of the E2 ecosystem but then "held back" by the GH4 sensor (while the full E2 for $2K has the GH5S/BMPCC4K sensor in it).

But I didn't mention the P4K equivalent, I meant the cine mantra instead referred here, so that's the one. There is this one for under a thousand bucks. Why bother to claim P4K must be what it isn't?

People are eager to buy the best to fit their needs for cheap, very well, that one will do the job. Don't presume the elitist cine-like approach will satisfy the expectations of all of us because will not. It's wrong, it's pretty inaccurate.

Pocket series cam design is a perfect one to me and many others. Look at the endless preorder waiting list ; ) No matter how we can criticize or want to see the manufacturer to improve their attitude or business policies. I pay attention to my son I care, not of my neighbour's.

E : -)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/7/2020 at 3:39 AM, leslie said:

when i joined the forum all the talk was about the  p4k. Stylish was not a word that came up often

Yep.  It's ugly, but we got used to it.

 

However, there is definitely an ID person's heavy hand involved in its form.

 

 

On 2/7/2020 at 3:39 AM, leslie said:

Imagine that, a cinema camera that looked a bit like a dslr, something i could relate to.  I would speculate that bm pitched it like that to sell a few more to mum and dads and other potential new users. must of worked, i preordered 😁

It's doubtful that is the reason for its form.  Most likely, a designer who doesn't work with cinema cameras was faced with the task of creating a housing that would accommodate a bigger "non-flippy" screen, a handle with "ergonmic" buttons and the main circuit board.  It was easiest for the designer to just make it DSLR style with a fan.  The CEO who is guilty of signing-off on all previous BM design blunders probably fawns over this designer's work, and, so, the BMPCC4K came to be it's current form.

 

The question is:  How many users hand hold the BMPCC4k without any stabilization?  Incidentally, because of its shape, the camera doesn't work very well on many gimbals.

 

By the way, @leslieyou quoted my question, but you never answered it:  which camera would you prefer -- the original BMPCC6K or a streamlined blocky version that works on gimbals and that can accept a lot more lenses, adapters and speedboosters?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/6/2020 at 4:49 PM, BrooklynDan said:

Newsflash: Almost every large company is run like this.

Blackmagic isn't exactly a large company -- film at eleven...

 

 

On 2/6/2020 at 5:37 PM, IronFilm said:

However you forgot there are many many people who are buying Pockets for casual shooting or youtube etc

They're not rigging it up and working with crews. The DSLR-ish form factor of the Pocket works better for them than an Arri Mini / RED "box".

Not so sure about this.  Casual shooters usually want stabilization, good autofocus, and a flippy screen (from the factory).

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We had lens rehousing, now we need camera rehousing.

Let's see a Chinese company take the inside out of the Pocket 6K and put it all in a different body... Adding the hinge to the screen, don't forget.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/7/2020 at 3:39 AM, leslie said:

Can you point my to a link where industrial design is specified ?

What is the full name of the company again?...

 

Blackmagic Design is a textbook example of a small, newer company focusing on form over function.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/7/2020 at 1:49 AM, BrooklynDan said:

Newsflash: Almost every large company is run like this. Once a company achieves a certain scale, old school management principles come into play. A strict hierarchy is established and innovative minds tend to get pushed to the bottom. Companies are run by MBAs, not by camera nerds. Small start-ups can run a bit leaner and display truly innovative and disruptive behavior. But that only lasts until it's sold off or becomes a key player in the industry. Then the dogs start chewing at each other.

About Black Magic, I appreciate the image quality on both the Pocket 6k and the Ursa Mini. But the so-called "industrial design" is pretty atrocious and the build quality still leaves a lot to be desired. They would do well to charge a few thousand more and equip their camera with fully aluminum bodies, so that they stand up better to on-set use. And the Pocket has the worst form factor of any camera on the planet. No amount of cages, rigs or battery plates can turn it into a functional piece of cinema equipment. It's like a camera designed by an ancient Egyptian who'd only seen a camera in hieroglyphs. 

It's almost as if you feel the need to excuse it, as if it being normal makes it ok to run a shitty organisation that could be far better if the ethics and management were improved upon.

Canon and Blackmagic have been the biggest disappointments for me both in terms of how they treat staff (and myself included even though I don't work for them) and their products.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

We had lens rehousing, now we need camera rehousing.

A complete camera rehousing has already been done with a BM camera.

 

Due to BM's "design aesthetic," there also have been several other mods to their cameras.  Remember the Wooden camera BMPC lens mount mod?  How about their current BMPCC6K lens mount mod kit?

 

 

29 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Let's see a Chinese company take the inside out of the Pocket 6K and put it all in a different body... Adding the hinge to the screen, don't forget.

That would be great!  By the way, a Chinese company has already added the hinged screen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The most funny is, I second both standpoints. Really, not to only be nice with you guys, I actually do appreciate the Pocket series design and form factor though, oh yeah, ergonomics as well, being their cam interface my fav ever. There's function on their software @tupp LOL : )

Nonetheless, I firmly concur with criticism on their cockiness like they are the last cookie in the package, oh well ; ) their communication and PR are a plain disaster, no matter how good their sales channels go, IQ or the product is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, tupp said:

Yep.  It's ugly, but we got used to it.

 

However, there is definitely an ID person's heavy hand involved in its form.

 

 

It's doubtful that is the reason for its form.  Most likely, a designer who doesn't work with cinema cameras was faced with the task of creating a housing that would accommodate a bigger "non-flippy" screen, a handle with "ergonmic" buttons and the main circuit board.  It was easiest for the designer to just make it DSLR style with a fan.  The CEO who is guilty of signing-off on all previous BM design blunders probably fawns over this designer's work, and, so, the BMPCC4K came to be it's current form.

 

The question is:  How many users hand hold the BMPCC4k without any stabilization?  Incidentally, because of its shape, the camera doesn't work very well on many gimbals.

 

By the way, @leslieyou quoted my question, but you never answered it:  which camera would you prefer -- the original BMPCC6K or a streamlined blocky version that works on gimbals and that can accept a lot more lenses, adapters and speedboosters?

sorry buddy, but i am going to have to disagree with you on the reason for its form factor. A box is the easiest thing in the world to build, a box also gives you lots of space, to go out of your way to build something else points to other reasoning and i personally reckon that they wanted it resembling a dslr. How convenient is it that all the controls resemble a dslr, its like its made for people who have used a dslr pick up a cinema camera and can start shooting in 5 minutes even if was provided with hieroglyphics. 🙄 Give me a boxy cinema camera and with out the manual and a couple of youtubes , i am unlikely to find the on/off switch 😀 i think its pretty easy for someone to transition from a dslr to a p4k/p6k cinema camera with a minimum of fuss.

Personally i think the only thing the designers got wrong was giving it a non flippy screen. Thats almost tantamount to criminal neglect in this day and age and i would have even paid an extra $200 if that was the cost incurred.

i use it without stabilization but i wouldnt post anything unless you guys needed a laugh 😉

sorry if i didnt answer your question directly. i bought the p4k which predates the p6k so in a way i have answered your question as to which i prefer.  whether it works on a gimbal or not is moot to me at this point as i cant afford one. I would argue, with an adapter i can fit just as many lenses on my p4k speedboosted as any ef mount or any other camera mount should i so desire. I may not have auto focus, but i am the kind of guy to buy a katz eye micro focus  screen and install it into his dslr, so not having auto focus isnt an issue for me.

1 hour ago, tupp said:

What is the full name of the company again?...

 

Blackmagic Design is a textbook example of a small, newer company focusing on form over function.

i guess their interpretation differs from yours a little, besides their human their not going to get it right, all the time every time (take the non flippy screen for example ) but i dont think its worth hanging some poor dude over. 

 

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

It's almost as if you feel the need to excuse it, as if it being normal makes it ok to run a shitty organisation that could be far better if the ethics and management were improved upon.

Canon and Blackmagic have been the biggest disappointments for me both in terms of how they treat staff (and myself included even though I don't work for them) and their products.

i doubt any of us are excusing it or condoning it. if we are honest with ourselves we could probably all do better.  If you watch the news at night you will soon learn its a dog eat dog world out there, people are constantly ripping other people off it occurs at every level whether its washing cars (seen that on the news believe it or not ) or members of parliament or businesses. Seems ironic that its been two thousand years since jesus walked the earth, technology certainly has improved but how man treats other men really hasn't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some more opinions from the same address (about BM employment) that don't look at all like "horror stories"... please check for more by yourself

"An amazing experience"  6 October 2019

I had a chance to work with some of the most amazing people and on one of the most widely used software in the entertainment industry-davinci resolve. Was quite well received by everyone in the team, and my manager was a highly qualified professional and an expert in the field. The company’s culture was a bit conservative i would say, but that’s ok. Would definitely recommend this company to someone who wants to have a stable job with a good work-life balance.

"Great place to be" 10 February 2016

Fantastic working environment! Nice and highly professional people. Great opportunity to stay up to date with the latest and upcoming broadcast and audivisual technologies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Canon and Blackmagic have the most cinematic image quality out there for the price. Yet there is always something to spoil it. With the 1D C, we had that ridiculous $12,000 pricing and for so long they paid lip service to EOSHD users and readers with crippled DSLR video at the "real" market prices, so what use is that colour science, that beautiful creamy C-LOG, if for the past 8 years we've been fobbed off with cropping, rubbish ergonomics, low-end mirrorless cameras that don't move the market forward, and so on. So it makes sense that there are multiple whistleblowers on Canon's organisational failings. What I am saying is, if used constructively, critics and whistleblowers are the best thing to ever happen to a failing company.

Blackmagic... Another damn sexy image, mind-blowing pricing, truly great touch screen menus, but tell me what this means exactly when their head of PR is having a blood vessel bursting argument with me at IBC 2019 because I dared to pull them up on a few bugs and poor quality control relating to the 6K which I just put down 2700 euros for. The arrogance is seriously off putting at a lot of these companies. He really gave it to me in the neck, saying I was an amateur who didn't use the right tool for the job. Patrick Hussey, is the guy (based in the UK). Head of marketing and communications for all of EMEA. I should publish the whole conversation verbatim, you'll be shocked at the vitriol. Afterwards in a fire-fighting attempt their head of technical support fobbed me off with a load of old bollocks about the courier damaging the camera mount through a pristine box and lens cap... and no they wouldn't refund a penny. The dealer ended up refunding me partially for the Pocket 6K when I returned it so I lost money. These people honestly do treat us for fools,. If you haven't experienced it yourself, you're one of the lucky ones and you probably won't be so lucky with the next camera.

It makes it hard to recommend either of the two company's products, no matter how interesting they are from a filmmaking perspective.

I'd encourage more staff and whistleblowers to step forward with their mistreatment... and customers too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Andrew Reid

Actually, I suspect that for the second circle of deliverance BM even repacked issued-returned/refurbished cameras from the first and sold them as new; also, there are many complains that point at clearly visible scratches on bodies. Such attitude is sign that BM/G.Petty is constantly in the stage of struggling to stay competitive with  philosophy, prices and still small crews against conservative, restrictive and easier-to-be-solid Japanese giants . If it helps, it seems that BM truly afterwards strive to be as reliable as possible with further contingents, at least of P4K's.

Unfortunately, maybe that must be our accept-or-refuse risk and price for sort-off indeed uncompromising cutting-edge technology-vs-price solutions BM offers to community of indie film makers.

(Regarding their British head of PR vs CEO of Eoshd and all of previous similar matters - I think that's obvious that BM Head of PR is mere transitional dealer and our CEO is one of the few top creators that passionately organize, lead and honestly convey voices of community.  Let Heads/PRs be arrogant, ignorant: if to him, or anyone BMinvolved, fact of 1.2 millions of views at top-pinned topic doesn't mean enough to be especially polite, there will be of no help in trying to diminish importance of BM as unique phenomenon as whole. Actually, it seems to me that inward moving spirit of BM and Eoshd is very close to each other. So, there's not need for carrier of noble spirit  to communicate with mere operative screw-everything-PRHead  :)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, anonim said:

@Andrew Reid

Actually, I suspect that for the second circle of deliverance BM even repacked issued-returned/refurbished cameras from the first and sold them as new; also, there are many complains that point at clearly visible scratches on bodies. Such attitude is sign that BM/G.Petty is constantly in the stage of struggling to stay competitive with  philosophy, prices and still small crews against conservative, restrictive and easier-to-be-solid Japanese giants . If it helps, it seems that BM truly afterwards strive to be as reliable as possible with further contingents, at least of P4K's.

Ah that makes it ok then! Poor little small Blackmagic fighting the evil Japanese giants and their new unused cameras!

Blackmagic have had since 2012 and millions of dollars in R&D simply to ship cameras without debris on the sensor and permanent scuffs on the bodies, and they haven't managed it. What does it say about management standards and oversight if they feel this is ok? What does it say about the attitude towards customers, they think we will just suck it up because 2700 euros is "cheap"?

A classic misconception. David vs Goliath is no excuse for shitty behaviour. These were the first batch of 6K cameras, straight from the factory.

Mine crashed 9 times out of 10 at the Italian Grand Prix. Eventually had to bag it and use something else.

Of course this is all my fault and nothing to do with Blackmagic shipping rushed out incomplete hardware and firmware.

And if they did, their fanboys would excuse it!

Because they are the good little guy fighting the big money suits!

LOL. Such nonsense people believe. Get real.

Quote

(Regarding their British head of PR vs CEO of Eoshd and all of previous similar matters - I think that's obvious that BM Head of PR is mere transitional dealer and our CEO is one of the few top creators that passionately organize, lead and honestly convey voices of community.  Let Heads/PRs be arrogant, ignorant: if to him, or anyone BMinvolved, fact of 1.2 millions of views at top-pinned topic doesn't mean enough to be especially polite, there will be of no help in trying to diminish importance of BM as unique phenomenon as whole. Actually, it seems to me that inward moving spirit of BM and Eoshd is very close to each other. So, there's not need for carrier of noble spirit  to communicate with mere operative screw-everything-PRHead  :)

The 1.2 million views should mean something because to most companies, customers mean something to the people running them.

Sigma is a good example, they really do care about their customers which is why their CEO was mingling with users at the Sigma stand at IBC, and checking out the competition without a single person with him in an entourage.

To the management and marketing at Blackmagic you don't mean anything, you are literally just a potential sale or a non-sale.

There are good people working at Blackmagic too but the shit they let fly is unreal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My question for the Blackmagic apologists is this...

https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=97337

Are the issues reported here acceptable for a new camera straight out of the packaging?

Screenshot_20191224-210554_Gallery.jpg

20191224_210444.jpg

And when mine arrived with a deep gouge in the lens mount under the lens cap, they claimed it was due to rough handling by DHL in Germany...

***

"My name is Callum Mclay and I am the head of Technical Supportfor Blackmagic Design in Europe, Middle East and Africa.

I was sorry to hear about the condition of your camera out of the box. We always recommend reporting any unexpected behaviour to our Support team as soon as possible so that there is a record of it occurring and so that we can do our best to address it for you. This might be why the reseller was unable to accept that the condition of the camera was out of the box, as an amount of time had passed between receiving the product and reporting the condition to them, and because the product had been in use as detailed on your website.

We had seen a very small number of cameras arrive with customers with minor cosmetic damage. We identified the cause of this as extreme rough handling conditions with couriers. These conditions went beyond our own extensive packaging testing, where there became a possibility that the product could have moved inside the packaging and been damaged."

***

😂

It takes the piss doesn't it? No?

How do you get damage like this from a camera moving around inside protective packaging?

A) the packaging is completely inadequate.

or

B) it's a cover up.

Buy a Z-Cam instead and support a company that actually cares about the customer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Andrew Reid

Truly and sadly for not just one similar experience about scratches... But we already read about that failure here, and that everything started even earlier with stupid decision of BM not to call you to be part of their testing campaign. As also that - why anybody need unreliable  P4k when exists solid GH5s, or who needs RAW when S1H has V-log, who needs DLSR body when it could be box etc. As fond, mostly-fan of Eoshd, it started to me to look as some sort of unnecessary continuing private war, with expecting next step/episode of something/anything vs BM.

I just think simply as so: as much as you have all rights to feel firstly neglected, than in other case insulted by some BM personal, it's under level of dignity, achievements and significance of this very your forum to suggest that all buyers of BM cameras are blind about their comparative faults and comparative values. And btw - to the management and marketing at any company I know that I don't mean anything, that I'm literally just a potential sale or a non-sale.

edit, because of question mark in last sentences -

Did you really use that camera as BM reply claims (it seems obviously following posts and discussions on eoshd?)... "as an amount of time had passed between receiving the product and reporting the condition to them, and because the product had been in use as detailed on your website"?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, anonim said:

Did you really use that camera as BM reply claims (it seems obviously following posts and discussions on eoshd?)... "as an amount of time had passed between receiving the product and reporting the condition to them, and because the product had been in use as detailed on your website"?

Yes my crime was to use the camera. It arrived the day before my flight to Italy, so I had no time to sort out a replacement. At the track in Monza, I used the Pocket 6K for a few shots before the power went kaput at 50% battery meter every 30 seconds. So the next day, I persevered and wanted to try out the slow-mo, but it crashed with a black screen every time I tried. Lost a lot of material. Shot the rest of the time with different camera. So feeling pissed off on the way back from Italy to IBC in Amsterdam, I decided to take my camera to Blackmagic at the show and ask what was going on. I was insulted, fobbed off, patronised, belittled and offered no solution. The next week after a month long trip I finally arrived in Berlin and contacted the dealer to return it. They did the usual quibbling, before partially refunding me after they received the camera back in the state I received it brand-new... Scuffed and used looking, but I may add just to be clear I didn't add to it... Not during my troubled and brief use of the camera at the Grand Prix nor at IBC. No more damage that was already there from the shrink wrap.

EOSHD is not a purely unfeeling, fact based endeavour for me, I'm afraid feelings and emotion do come into it. When a company puts out shoddy quality control and fobs me off or insults me, it doesn't make me want to help further the online Blackmagic community for them or put work into Blackmagic related content.

I have news for you. I am biased.

My strong advise to Blackmagic users is seriously to look at the alternatives and get off the hype train.

Canon 1D C used has a more cinematic image than both the Pocket cameras and is as low as £1599 / $1900 now
X-T3, and all the new mirrorless cameras. etc.

If you enjoy your Blackmagic don't let my experiences stop you... But let they be a lesson for Blackmagic to improve their lot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

If you enjoy your Blackmagic don't let my experiences stop you... But let they be a lesson for Blackmagic to improve their lot.

If it might be word of compassion - I think that buyers of BM cameras (me personally had 8 during time) are much much more aware of all of that than you (judging from lines of worry) assume. Actually, imho that's the main reason of bad selling P6K - not just because of 2800e  as initial price, but because it is 2800 for product of BM... that as company is far away of having reputation of  highest reliability, regarding many different aspects (but also with great history of update improvements). But, I think that BM will not improve their at all.

Simply, somebody without stable income of camera-usage is willing to take even a, say, 70-30% risk for 1200e of marvelous technology, but not at all for 2800e after carefully reading whole experiences at all forums. (Especially in Western countries, where there's easy way for reclamation and where,  to be honest, there are also many positive reviews of BM readiness to help.) Or, from another side - it is great to try Z-cam e2, but its not so easy when, for the same money, you can buy P4k with best raw codec plus, say, Olympus 12-100. Why such total newcomer, even without proper established selling network in EU, has to be so much more expensive? Who will not buy instantly Panasonic GHx with same recording capabilities with same sensor and processing power as P4K for 800e more? But such camera doesn't exist, exclusively by the will of Panasonic - choice was to ask 2500e for less capable same cine-type product. Panasonic plays its own market game, as BM his. I'm totally cold to them all.

And that's also all about real reason for quasi David vs Goliath argumentation -  not as apologize, but as anatomy of one's game - it seems to me that BM, simply, even if actually wishing to be better, has no enough resources for better quality control, while being at the same time devoted with full forces to bring proper biggest-guys technology to a hands of just aspiring mm community... moreover including for free (even bizarre-fast-evolving ) software(s) that already destroys big-players as Flame, Avid, Premiere etc market. BM, even more than similar Fuji, has no luxury to lose market covering flops with other lines of products. BM choose to act fast, with mistakes, being in advantage to the shocking level. Fuji choose to be slower, little bit falling behind, but more credible. Having just one view at Petty's funny proudly-juvenal excitement while announcing his hurry-to-be-first-truly-missionary, or big-shaking-experience cameras - and it will be clear what to expect next. The same story again: two steps ahead with list of advantages, one step or two behind in term of reliability. If you, little Joe, want to shoot raw at the field, you have to keep praying that BM camera will not break down at crucial moment (also you always have to have one BM in reserve).

That's BM psychology, its market and dignity gambling. Before we make our breakthrough to Oscar, every of us simply has to choose his/her own poison.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Obviously, Blackmagic needs to cut some corners to deliver products at this price point. But this generation of cameras seems to be a turn in the wrong direction. The P4K would have been a steal at $1799 or $1999 and would have given them a lot more margin for their build quality.

Other than the normal BM annoyances, the OG Pocket and the Micro were solidly built.

If you had a YouTube channel, with the instant subscribers and viewers you'd receive, discussing these issues, I'd bet money they wouldn't dismiss you so lightly. I'm sure with your skill you could put together a great looking video showing the pros of the BM IQ and when you add the cons of their build quality and customer service things may change... at least with the way you've been treated.

Right now, BM have enough "ambassadors" giving them the freedom to deny, deny, deny.

Unfortunately we've seen it on this forum by some people whose work I truly admire. Try saying that you prefer the image of the OG Pocket/Micro to the P4K, in the P4K sticky thread, and you'll see somebody pop up to denounce your opinion.

The whole thing is kinda creepy. At least the Red fanboys stay at their own site. Lol. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...