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Alex Uzan

New year, New gear

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I know what you mean.
I also love how everything is on a fullframe camera, and it’s not only about the bokeh.

So the camera we’d love is :
- Fullframe
- AF from A7R4 or 1DXII
- 4k50 with no crop
- 422 10bit (at least with HDMI out)
- Raw recording (external of course)

Actually, it could be the A7s3 ?

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6 hours ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

Yes, but... there's still no road map for something like a 50mm f/1.8. The only thing on the road map is for a 50mm f/1.4. Sigma is probably going to charge $800+ for their 50mm f/1.4 , and the panasonic version is over $2K ?

True true, we might have a long wait for a "cheap ish nifty 50". Wonder when Tamron/Rokinon/etc will bring their AF lenses to L Mount? 

30 minutes ago, Alex Uzan said:


I also love how everything is on a fullframe camera, and it’s not only about the bokeh.

So the camera we’d love is :
- Fullframe


I'm not obsessed with a full frame. 

I'd love a $1.5K camera which is a X-T3 but plus IBIS and a few other tweaks (like adding waveforms and timecode)

Or a Panasonic camera which combines and refines the best of the GH5 & GH5S plus a few more tweaks (like 4K 10bit 60fps internal)

32 minutes ago, Alex Uzan said:

Actually, it could be the A7s3 ?

How long until people stop dreaming about an "a7Smk3"? Maybe if 2020 goes by another year without it coming out then people might stop. 

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2 hours ago, Silenkiller said:

ive been in this boat for awhile. ive tried just about every camera out there. i need 4k60p.. soo i eventually settled with the blackmagic 4k's... but now I miss the full frame bokeh and my workflow is insane having to CC braw.. FML so now im on a panny s1r and mm the bokeh is back baby and IBIS is incredible but now im stuck with a 15min recording limit and only 8bit.. WTF. so now im thinking it might be time to just bite the bullet and get the 1dxm3 so i can have canon color science right out the gate and FF bokeh. 

I solved all these issues by buying a GH5 and bought the Voigtlander 17.5mm F0.95, Voigtlander 42.5mm F0.95, and Laowa 7.5mm F2.  Spending ~2.5K on lenses seems to freak everyone out, but think about how many bodies you've gone through....  So, I have 4K60, 1080p180, 4/5K 10-bit internal, no recording limits, incredible IBIS, and the FF equivalent of a 15mm F4 / 35mm F2 / 85mm F2 in cine packages with long focal throws and de-clicked apertures.
The only "price" I had to pay for all this is to move to manual focus, which I discovered I prefer the aesthetic of, and I spend 0.00000% of my life silently screaming at the camera to focus on the right thing while the moment goes by and is lost.

2 hours ago, Alex Uzan said:

I know what you mean.
I also love how everything is on a fullframe camera, and it’s not only about the bokeh.

So the camera we’d love is :
- Fullframe
- AF from A7R4 or 1DXII
- 4k50 with no crop
- 422 10bit (at least with HDMI out)
- Raw recording (external of course)

Actually, it could be the A7s3 ?

Welcome to the club.  I think you're not a fully fledged member of these forums if you haven't made a list like this.

By the way, you forgot to add:

  • Gimbal-like IBIS
  • 16 stops of DR
  • dedicated buttons for all functions
  • internal NDs
  • mirrorless to adapt all sorts of vintage lenses
  • 10-hour battery life
  • pocketable / under 200g
  • $100 or less retail price

?????????????

2 hours ago, IronFilm said:

How long until people stop dreaming about an "a7Smk3"? Maybe if 2020 goes by another year without it coming out then people might stop. 

Not a chance.  Not even after Sony say in a press release that the entire line is cancelled.  Not even after Sony stop making cameras.  Not even after the entire company goes bankrupt and closes shop.  

Look at the following the NX1 still has.

This will be a generational thing - like when people fight in a war and the level of fantasy / trauma means they never completely recover....

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1 hour ago, kye said:

and I spend 0.00000% of my life silently screaming at the camera to focus on the right thing while the moment goes by and is lost.

Your post gets a heart from me for this very line alone. Just spent about an hour out in the cold screaming at my S1 to do a focus pull on christmas lights using AF.

 

1 hour ago, kye said:

Not a chance.  Not even after Sony say in a press release that the entire line is cancelled.  Not even after Sony stop making cameras.  Not even after the entire company goes bankrupt and closes shop.

There are people who still think Sony will be releasing an A Mount camera any day now.

And Betamax is making a comeback... just you wait.

greatpumpkin.png?w=362&ssl=1

 

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2 hours ago, kye said:

Not a chance.  Not even after Sony say in a press release that the entire line is cancelled.  Not even after Sony stop making cameras.  Not even after the entire company goes bankrupt and closes shop.  

Look at the following the NX1 still has.

This will be a generational thing - like when people fight in a war and the level of fantasy / trauma means they never completely recover....


I believe 2020 is the year the NX2 will be announced! ?

We've waited long enough.....

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2 hours ago, kye said:

I solved all these issues by buying a GH5 and bought the Voigtlander 17.5mm F0.95, Voigtlander 42.5mm F0.95, and Laowa 7.5mm F2.  Spending ~2.5K on lenses seems to freak everyone out, but think about how many bodies you've gone through....  So, I have 4K60, 1080p180, 4/5K 10-bit internal, no recording limits, incredible IBIS, and the FF equivalent of a 15mm F4 / 35mm F2 / 85mm F2

isn't the voigtlander soft wide open? 

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39 minutes ago, Silenkiller said:

isn't the voigtlander soft wide open? 

Yes, but so are most lenses.  

You have to be very careful with these things - there is a fundamental flaw with lens tests.  We tend to test lenses at 5.6, 2.8, and wide-open.  This is a trap because there are many lenses that are wide-open at f1.7 (for example) and that lens is sharper wide-open than the Voigtlander is wide-open, but here's the thing, that's comparing one lens at f1.7 and the other at f0.95 so it's not a fair test.  The Voigtlander is sharper when it's at f1.7 than the other lens is, but no half-baked lens test will tell you that.  You have to be sure that you're not comparing apples with oranges.

Here are some charts to show you what I mean..

Voigtlander 42.5mm

voigt-f1.4.png

voigt-stopdown-sml.png

So, you can see that by f2.8 it sharpens right up.

For comparison, here's a Zeiss CP.2 at T2.1 - the Voigtlander is sharper across most of the frame when it's at F1.4 than the Zeiss at T2.1, and these lenses are radically more expensive.

Compact-Prime-CP.2-50mm-T2.1_MTF_Average

Here's the Samyang Xeen cine lens, with it's absolutely terrible performance wide-open at T1.5.......

Xeen-50-MTFsml.jpg

and here is a Zeiss Super Speed, one of the classic cine lenses (a set of them sells for over $100K) with it's very poor, but hugely desirable, softness wide open...

Compact-Prime-CP.2-50mm-T1.5-Super-Speed

These comparisons aren't exactly fair considering that these other lenses are full-frame, but to dismiss a lens based on softness wide open is just stupid when you understand that most lenses are soft wide open, and also take into account how much faster the Voigtlander is.

So let's compare the MFT competition too...

Here's the Voigtlander at F1.4 and F2.8 for comparison:

voigt-stopdown-sml.png

This is the Panaleica getting crushed wide-open:

Leica-DG-Macro-Elmarit-45mm-f2.8_MTF_Ave

This Olympus is about on par with the Voigt at f1.8

M.Zuiko-Digital-45mm-f1.8_MTF_Average.pn

This is the Panasonic not really beating the Voigt:

Lumix-42.5mm-f1.7-ASPH-OIS_MTF_Average-1

This Olympus PRO lens not really looking quite so PRO in comparison to the Voigt:

M.Zuiko-Digital-ED-45mm-f1.2-PRO_MTF_Ave

And the Panaleica f1.2 also failing to beat the Voigt:

Leica-DG-Nocticron-42.5mm-f1.2-ASPH-POWE

So basically:

  • The Voigt is sharper wide-open than many of the classic / industry standard FF cine lenses
  • The Voigt is of similar or better sharpness as the competing MFT lenses when they're wide open, and it opens up further, so you can use it stopped down or you can open it up further to get more light in

Many of the people that like things like the Zeiss Super Speeds actually like the softness of the lens wide-open because it's like having two different lenses - vintage when open and more modern when stopped down, so the softness of the Voigtlander is actually a desirable thing for some.

Now, is the Voigt perfect?  No.  They're expensive, they have a colour cast when wide open, I've heard they're not built to be repaired and they're only MFT so who knows if they're a good long-term investment.  Are they the sharpest lenses available?  No - the Veydras are much better performers at equivalent apertures.  But should we cast them aside because they're soft wide open?  No.

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3 hours ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

Your post gets a heart from me for this very line alone. Just spent about an hour out in the cold screaming at my S1 to do a focus pull on christmas lights using AF.

I think that there are three levels of AF involved in film-making:

  1. Can the AF focus quickly and reliably?
  2. Can the AF choose the right thing to focus on reliably?
  3. Can the AF transition between focal points in the most aesthetically pleasing way?

Most of the AF conversation seems to be focused on the first one, but in reality it's split between the first two (and sometimes the third with older CDAF systems).  PDAF / DPAF are great at the first one, and CDAF isn't too bad now (with the latest Panasonic cameras for example).  Face detect and eye detect (and animal face/eye detect) are great advancements in the second one.  The third one is also somewhat supported with the firmware offering some control of focus speed.

So for example, Canon seems to be pretty good on their DPAF cameras - they normally detect a face and focus on it and not the background.  With multiple actors in a narrative scene this may not work so well, but broadly it's not too bad.  They also seem to offer a more organic focus transition too.  Panasonics like the GH5 are actually relatively good at the first one, but seem to have issues with the second one - the out-of-focus shots you see in vlogs and lower-quality-more-disposable content aren't actually out-of-focus, typically the background is very well presented and looking lovely, it's just a pity that the presenter was a big blur!  I also see some very mechanical transitions to acquire focus occasionally, like the focus mechanism is directly taken from a stills camera where it seeks at full speed, hunts for a bit, then locks on.  Very unpleasant.

My MF performance isn't that great at the first one, and I'm somewhat let down by the low-resolution of the focus peaking available, or by screen brightness if I'm using the LCD outdoors.  On the other hand I have zero problems with either the second or the third.  At no point do I ever find myself not listening to myself in terms of what I want to focus on!  I'm pretty good at doing the third one, and certainly if I'm not rushed and it's not a difficult focus pull then I'm fine, and I have no limitations in doing a slow focus pull during a shot and then immediately after that doing a fast-as-possible focus pull to catch something else that might happen unexpectedly.  With one of those menu-based settings things you're limited by the current settings and it takes a long time to change them.

I also find that the aesthetic suits my style of film-making, but that's a creative choice and wouldn't be shared for many productions.

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Moreover, all Panasonic/Olympus lenses are internally software-corrected, including so-called sharpness at charting lines, and are exclusively tested in Pana/Oly cameras.  At 0.95 Voigts have enough center sharpness, cleverly diminishing compromises by keeping softness and distortion  closer to the edges to get some 3d portraiture effect. To make them really usable at true T1/1.1, constructors even relied on two different color renditions - mostly by putting less contrast at wide open level appropriate to dark scenes and blooming portraiture/hero effect - that are even not so hard to harmonize in post.

Taking a chance to play on the additional field of m43 advantages, I think that Voigts are mechanical lenses that have incomparable know-how Cosina/Zeiss history and new touches (possible just inside m43 spectre) involved in their construction.

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2 minutes ago, anonim said:

Moreover, all Panasonic/Olympus lenses are internally software-corrected, including so-called sharpness at charting lines, and are exclusively tested in Pana/Oly cameras.  At 0.95 Voigts have enough center sharpness, cleverly diminishing compromises by keeping softness and distortion  closer to the edges to get some 3d portraiture effect. To make them really usable at true T1/1.1, constructors even relied on two different color renditions - mostly by putting less contrast at wide open level appropriate to dark scenes and blooming portraiture/hero effect - that are even not so hard to harmonize in post.

Taking a chance to play on the additional field of m43 advantages, I think that Voigts are mechanical lenses that have incomparable know-how Cosina/Zeiss history and new touches (possible just inside m43 spectre) involved in their construction.

Good points.  

A note about the above charts - my impression is that they're tested by lensrentals with a specialised piece of testing equipment, not just by connecting a camera and looking at the files on the SD card.

Here's an article showing their setup and talking about it, but I'm not entirely sure how it works as they don't appear to explicitly state that: https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2018/06/developing-a-rapid-mtf-test-for-photo-and-video-lenses/

This is a later article on the subject: https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2018/11/using-rapid-mtf-testing-how-we-test-monitor-our-lenses/

However, regardless of how they perform the tests, you're not going to get better results than the charts indicate, unless a manufacturer has worked out how to up-res an image, in which case, woohoo! I'll be filming in SD, saving heaps of storage space and battery life, and I'll deliver in 8K to get the best YT quality :) 

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Lensrentals always note what camera is used for test - and all of them include internal processing. Further more, what lensrentals testes lack is including of video or movie side perspective of usage (dealing with between frames rendition is science for itself). But even so, at least two Voigts reach top level of "sharpness" at f2.8 without being corrected. Misleading and sort of sterile approach is most noticeable in case of 10.5mm lens - actually probably the most unbelievable thought off of all Voigts. This is lens analog to Cosina's own Zeiss Distagon 21mm,  for which they never even tried to make anything but f2.8 version.

Actually yes - manufacturers indeed put some sort of up-res/sharpening inside software gimmicky even at before-raw level processing... Take a look to, say, Panny 20mm f1.7, stunning "sharpness" with feather like lens... but its "sterility" as trading mark of all more or less (in "Leica" models) Panasonic lenses is, actually, pure result of artificial sharpening/contrasting which reduce natural color distribution.

To put it simply, almost 10 years after first introduction, Voigtlander Noktons stay unique, untouchable by any Chinese  manufacturer of nice ambition. Their production is too precious and expensive and include too much experience and will to play and support (than) new market. Veydras are straightforward and sort of safely one dimensional highest quality lenses... but more than two stops (out of any constructional risk) behind Voigts.

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4 hours ago, anonim said:

Lensrentals always note what camera is used for test - and all of them include internal processing. Further more, what lensrentals testes lack is including of video or movie side perspective of usage (dealing with between frames rendition is science for itself). But even so, at least two Voigts reach top level of "sharpness" at f2.8 without being corrected. Misleading and sort of sterile approach is most noticeable in case of 10.5mm lens - actually probably the most unbelievable thought off of all Voigts. This is lens analog to Cosina's own Zeiss Distagon 21mm,  for which they never even tried to make anything but f2.8 version.

Actually yes - manufacturers indeed put some sort of up-res/sharpening inside software gimmicky even at before-raw level processing... Take a look to, say, Panny 20mm f1.7, stunning "sharpness" with feather like lens... but its "sterility" as trading mark of all more or less (in "Leica" models) Panasonic lenses is, actually, pure result of artificial sharpening/contrasting which reduce natural color distribution.

To put it simply, almost 10 years after first introduction, Voigtlander Noktons stay unique, untouchable by any Chinese  manufacturer of nice ambition. Their production is too precious and expensive and include too much experience and will to play and support (than) new market. Veydras are straightforward and sort of safely one dimensional highest quality lenses... but more than two stops (out of any constructional risk) behind Voigts.

Interesting, thanks for the info.

The article I got the MFT lens charts from is this one: https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2018/03/finally-some-more-m43-mtf-testing-are-the-40s-fabulous/

In it they say:

Quote

For those of you who haven’t read our previous m4/3 tests, I want to emphasize a couple of things. First, we’re testing the lenses with no camera involved; all we’re evaluating is the optics. My interest is in the lenses, and the lenses only. 

So, assuming I read that right, they're testing the optics only?

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1 hour ago, kye said:

So, assuming I read that right, they're testing the optics only?

Yes, you're probably right - I've misread source as lenstip.com - so I refered to that, they have extensive set of tested lenses and accurate comparison between them, also for all Voigtlander Noktons

 

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