kidzrevil Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 7 hours ago, jonpais said: Many shooting today, if they’d read so many technical considerations about SDR - about color gamuts, bit depth, learning to read scopes, how dynamic range and color depth are compressed, chroma subsampling, gamma, log curves, debayering, color volumes - would never even pick up a camera. Remember, when 4K arrived not so long ago, there were just as many, if not more, dire precautions against such things as shooting close-ups of talent, concerns about the additional diligence required of makeup artists and costume designers, and outright dismissal because of the absence of 4K projectors in theaters and 4K televisions in the home. Is it just a coincidence that the ones here most vehemently opposed to HDR are the very ones who insist on 1080p and diffusion filters? ? Do yourselves a favor and watch an episode of Chef’s Table on Netflix in Dolby Vision. William Wages a 20+ year Hollywood DP shoots for 2K delivery with a tiffen glimmer glass filter with Varicams so what are you talking about. Plenty DP’s are happily shooting higher spec cameras than any of us in this forum are shooting with diffusion filters ? and again some of us own HDR tv’s and while it DOLBY 10 and Dolby Vision looks good (my tv supports both) its not gonna make any one throw out their sdr set for an hdr one any time soon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonpais Posted January 27, 2018 Author Share Posted January 27, 2018 Of course he uses Glimmer Glass - Wages developed it. ? That’s like saying Elon Musk drives a Tesla. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cantsin Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 10 hours ago, webrunner5 said: Well you are telling that to a person that in reality thinks even 4k is Over the Top! Digital cinema is not 4K, but 2K in more than 90% of all cases. (Even where theaters do have 4K projection, the films have been mastered in 2K with very rare exceptions.) From the standpoint of cinematic picture quality (=achieving cinema image quality on home viewing equipment), HDR is much more relevant than 4K. 2 hours ago, kidzrevil said: There isn’t a consumer camera shooting at 12 bit color depth so your not even getting the full benefits of shooting rec2020 for hdr Define "consumer". If you mean consumer price range - the Blackmagic Pocket shoots 12bit color depth in raw and has been on the market for four years. Canon cameras with ML raw even shoot 14bit color depth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markr041 Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 3 hours ago, kidzrevil said: iIsn’t the Samsung an OLED screen ? I definitely said it before that it was a screen brightness thing that makes HDR pop. An HDR an SDR display calibrated to the same brightness looks roughly the same. Its the HIGH contrast ratio from OLED screens like your Samsung that gives it that pop and the color gamut is in fact an integral part of HDR so that matters as well. Rec2020 requirements is a 12 bit color depth (and the screen displays up to P3 colors which are no where close to rec2020 spec).There isn’t a consumer camera shooting at 12 bit color depth so your not even getting the full benefits of shooting rec2020 for hdr its just a nice feature to say you have to match your footage to higher quality cameras when shooting as a B cam. Most of your colors in the 8bit HLG will be out of range of the color gamut kinda like shooting sony’s SGAMUT in 8bit. You are viewing changes of luminance as “good hdr” when that is only a small piece of what is supposed to make HDR the next big thing. SDR is not replacing HDR any time soon. Unless your audience cares for side by side a to b comparisons when in a theater setting or on youtube which I can assure you no consumer does. As long as the content is engaging then who cares. No one is skipping out on the latest film because its not shot in SDR over HDR. Im not against HDR as a format but this talk of it replacing SDR right now is gimmicky at best You are absolutely right that one is seeing only a subset of the benefits of HDR on the HDR-certified Samsung phones, or on most HDR TV's for that matter. But, you missed the point, again being bogged down in technical details - the HDR versions of the videos look amazing, even the "crippled" renditions on the phone. And you do not need to compare to see the visible benefits. And here we go again - I have bolded your cliché and epithet. Yes, content matters, duh, and using the word gimmicky. There is nothing gimmicky about increasing the realism of videos we shoot. HD gimmicky? 4K gimmicky? color gimmicky? widescreen gimmicky? progressive versus interlaced gimmicky? Higher frame rates gimmicky? Give us a break. You sound like you are threatened by HDR. But anyone who shoots in log gammas with extended color space (Vlog, Slog, V-gamut, S-gamut, or RAW) can produce HDR video (yes, not *all* of the specs). It does not require new cameras for most people and the *free* Resolve creates HDR video without much additional hassle. And YouTube, the most popular multi-platform *free* video-sharing app, provides an easy way to share HDR videos. Again YouTube even makes an SDR version for those without HDR screens. What could be easier? It's not like 3D or VR. I am not predicting anything about what will become popular (VR? 180 video?), just pointing out that unlike watching 10bit or 422 video versus 8bit 420 video in SDR, which is invisible in almost all cases, or even 4K versus true FullHD, which can be subtle, HDR is quite visibly different in the right way - reproducing what we see in real life. jonpais 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonpais Posted January 27, 2018 Author Share Posted January 27, 2018 At least get your facts straight, @kidzrevil. Rec. 2020 may be either 10 or 12 bit. Although rec.2020 commonly refers to only the color space, in fact it establishes parameters for resolution (4K and 8K), aspect ratio (16:9), progressive frame rates and bit depth. In order to receive the UHD Alliance Premium Certified designation, televisions must meet the following criteria: 3,840X2160 pixels, 10 bit color depth, the ability to display 90% of the P3 color gamut, a minimum brightness of 1,000 nits, along with a black level of a maximum of 0.05 nits for LCD displays or a minimum brightness of 540 nits, along with a black level of a maximum of 0.0005 nits for OLED, and the ability to use SMPTE ST2084’s EOTF. Manufacturers that don’t belong to the alliance may release HDR sets without certification and among HDR certified sets, some will perform better than others. Finally, saying a television supports HDR does not mean it is actually a true HDR set as defined by the UHD Alliance. To avoid any confusion, I say I own an HDR TV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidzrevil Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 @markr041 “threatened by HDR” and thats my cue to leave @jonpais 10bit does not cover the full rec2020 range it is the minimum requirement. Its kind of like how slog2 and 3 are coded for 8/10/12 bit values but 8bit is the bare minimum requirement but doesn’t cover the full luminance range or color gamut. A camera shooting 10 bit for 12 bit rec2020 is chopping off a significant amount of data to meet the minimum recording spec Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonpais Posted January 27, 2018 Author Share Posted January 27, 2018 @kidzrevil Did you even look over the requirements for HDR? Not rec.2020, but a minimum of 90% of the P3 color space. The LG E7 covers over 100%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidzrevil Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 Absolutely. That research was the foundation of my purchase of an HDR set. I own an LG HDR set that supports hdr10 and dolby vision. I don’t speak on things I don’t put to the test. I know the p3 minimum and its exactly why most mobile devices have upgraded their displays to support the full p3 color gamut and HDR spec in anticipation of incoming HDR content. @jonpais I have a full grasp of what HDR is and have seen it at home, at b&h,workshops and numerous professional environments. My gripe with this post isn’t with the advancement of technology but the idea that this new born tech is suddenly going to make sdr content obsolete. I’ll bet that is not going to happen any time soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members Mattias Burling Posted January 27, 2018 Super Members Share Posted January 27, 2018 Since 4K still isn't even close to be more spread than 1080p, let alone 720p. I too think it will be a few years before its any sort of standard. 5 years if Im very, very, veeery generous. kidzrevil 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonpais Posted January 27, 2018 Author Share Posted January 27, 2018 @kidzrevil Its survival will certainly depend on content creators. According to Displaymate, your tv is already ‘better than $50,000 Sony Professional CRT Reference Studio Monitors that up until recently were the golden standard for picture quality.’ It is essentially three television sets in one, in that it can accurately display HD, which still accounts for the overwheming amount of content out there, 4K and HDR. I don’t seriously expect HDR to overtake SDR any time soon, but as more and more filmmakers discover it and as better and more affordable solutions arrive, I think we’ll see wider adoption. The number of portable devices that support HDR, as well as video sharing platforms like YouTube and streaming services like Netflx and Amazon that produce HDR programs will also create widespread demand. I’m not a gamer, but I understand they’re also pushing for more HDR games and displays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markr041 Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 This was my first attempt (successful) to make a 4K HDR test video back in November 2016, using the GH4 (which outputs 10bit 422) and the Shogun Inferno. The difference between the SDR and HDR versions is immense - the HDR version just glows, the SDR version looks ordinary: You need to go to the YouTube app (by clicking the video title) to play in HDR, it will not play in the window. webrunner5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webrunner5 Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 Speaking of HDR I guess I have to Apologize to Jon and anyone else that has contributed to it. I never have looked at it because I had no way to Look at it, I thought. Well someone on here mentioned it works on a Note 8, and since I just happen to have a Note 8 I looked it up. And the more I look at it the more I want to do it LoL. Damn it, more money. I guess I am hooked. Thanks, I guess. This is a HDR Photo I took tonight with my Samsung Note 8. Hands down the most colorful, sharpest photo from it Ever. I think pretty good for a first effort. I think, may be wrong, that is some serious DR from a Cell Phone. jonpais 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinegain Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 Ehm, isn't the HDR processing stills VS video like way different..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonpais Posted January 28, 2018 Author Share Posted January 28, 2018 Yeah, they’re similar in name only. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinegain Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 Well, stills 'HDR' is basically SDR + additional SDR (exposure shift) = enhanced SDR. Video 'HDR' is basically a luminance priority for actual HDR content. Or the Note 8 does something else than traditionally the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webrunner5 Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 5 hours ago, Cinegain said: Well, stills 'HDR' is basically SDR + additional SDR (exposure shift) = enhanced SDR. Video 'HDR' is basically a luminance priority for actual HDR content. Or the Note 8 does something else than traditionally the case. Yeah I think you might be right. It did take I think 4 different exposures and blend them into one. So not sure you could do this on a moving object. So not sure, hell I don't know, if a Note 8 can do HDR in Video?? I would like to find out what cameras, phones do. IS there a list someplace? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinegain Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 Canon actually did that e.g. on the 80D. Supposedly there was a little more useful highlight/shadows information, but the overall image quality took a hit. The new LG V30 got announced with 10-bit HDR image sensor. Yet, it never recorded video as such (nor do I believe any smartphone does). HDR with these kind of phones is also mainly highlighted because of the displaying compatibility, rather than the recording one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Calabros Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 It might be politically incorrect opinion here but 90 percent of scenes we tend to shoot need just 9 stop of DR, or less :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonpais Posted January 28, 2018 Author Share Posted January 28, 2018 @Eric Calabros That may be so, but HDR increases the brightness of specular highlights, like the glint of a sword in the moonlight, which is wonderful to behold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonpais Posted January 29, 2018 Author Share Posted January 29, 2018 A crash course in HDR (and how the major studios make as many as 400 different types of deliverables). ( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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