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I don't know what the big deal is in regards to understanding this phenomenon of a Trump presidency.

Go to the damn Midwest and see how it is. It's really that simple.  Just see the reality they live in and understand their perspective. 

The lower middle class rust belt communities are sorrier than the 3rd world. Believe that. It's true. What the heck do you expect from people in that situation?

One candidate spoke to that reality, one did not. And that was what tipped the scales. 

I cant for the life of me imagine a scenario where Trump is a good president, but when voters are trying to give a big "F-You" to the establishment, they don't care about the outcome as much as they care about giving the middle finger to Washington. 

Of course, I'm speaking in context of the states that flipped the vote for Trump. The red states?  They just confuse me in general.  I mean, look at Kansas for goodness sake. 

http://thefederalist.com/2016/11/16/its-completely-ridiculous-to-claim-trumps-voters-are-no-good/

 

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4 hours ago, fuzzynormal said:

The lower middle class rust belt communities are sorrier than the 3rd world. Believe that. It's true. 

Everybody who states he could bring back an industry that keeps everybody employed for the payment they were used to is a liar. Like Trump i.e. - and everybody else, to be fair. There need to be major changes, new infrastructures, new industries aiming for the future, subsidized by whom? People need to be qualified, because untrained workers will be needed even less in the future, and they will be paid less. 

These changes, if s.o. had any idea, any concept in the first place, would take time. One lost generation. You can't let people starve. There has to be a minimum income for everybody. Enough to make you feel part of the civilization. 

Everything else leads to disaster, unavoidable. These conditions can't be tolerated in one of the richest countries of the world. One day you would see people hanging from the trees. Probably not bankers or politicians.

I sometimes think it's time to wake up from the American Dream. Trump is the ugly truth. Grotesque wealth is for very few. It tends to drive you mad. 

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I'm curious to know if the threat of Gun Control would have won Trump many votes. I'd like a $50 note for every time the media in my part of the world replayed the vision of Trump saying "She'll take your guns away from you". But at the same time I wasn't certain what Clinton's policy was on gun control. 

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On 11/16/2016 at 10:42 PM, SuperSet said:

A little bit like arguing that your team has more total yards except the other team scored more points.

Another fun fact. Under President Obama, Democrats have lost 900+ state legislature seats, 12 governors, 69 House seats, and 13 Senate seats. And now 1 Presidential election.

You can see why the DNC is in panic mode.

I agree the Electoral College is not the only nor arguably the most egregious example of an undemocratic process in the United States.  For the sake of brevity and avoiding inflaming certain people I didn't want to make a complete list of all the times certain people have sought to override the will of the people.  But you are correct.  In election after election Democratic policies and ideas win the most votes and yet somehow when we awake the next morning we have Republican faces staring back at us... then we go with guns and bombs and lecture other countries about democracy.  Prior to the election President Obama and Eric Holder had already pledged

to work on the problem.  The Democrats should be in panic mode over undemocratic processes.  What they should not do is cynically change policies they believe in and that the largest block of voters like just to win an election.

Donald Trump lied his way to the White House.  There will be a reckoning.

I much prefer people to stick to their principles and let time prove them right or wrong.  Obviously a lot of what Trump promised was unrealistic or just a flat out lie.  That is why he is running away from his campaign promises as fast as he can.

 

21 hours ago, fuzzynormal said:

I don't know what the big deal is in regards to understanding this phenomenon of a Trump presidency.

Go to the damn Midwest and see how it is. It's really that simple.  Just see the reality they live in and understand their perspective. 

The lower middle class rust belt communities are sorrier than the 3rd world. Believe that. It's true. What the heck do you expect from people in that situation?

 

Billions of people have been in a lot worse situations for a lot longer without having a meltdown.  A blue collar white male's life can in many cases be better than a college educated black person's.

Plenty of situations where an uneducated white person was treated the same as an ivy league educated black person with a grad degree...

melania-tea.jpg

21 hours ago, fuzzynormal said:

One candidate spoke to that reality, one did not. And that was what tipped the scales. 

I cant for the life of me imagine a scenario where Trump is a good president, but when voters are trying to give a big "F-You" to the establishment, they don't care about the outcome as much as they care about giving the middle finger to Washington. 

Of course, I'm speaking in context of the states that flipped the vote for Trump. The red states?  They just confuse me in general.  I mean, look at Kansas for goodness sake. 

http://thefederalist.com/2016/11/16/its-completely-ridiculous-to-claim-trumps-voters-are-no-good/

 

I take issue with the article you linked to.  It starts off with the false premise that people are claiming EVERY Trump voter is "no good".  In our hyper partisan world a Republican candidate is going to get at least something like 40% of the vote just by having a pulse.  There are a lot of people who voted for Trump that didn't chant "lock her up" nor "build the wall".  So I think that article constructed itself a strawman and then went crazy punching it.

But I do agree with you.  Certain people perceived that their lives sucked and acted out.  Whether I think it was justified or not is immaterial.  They did it.  The question is what to do going forward.  Part of the answer is time will teach them a lesson.  They will eventually learn Trump is a liar or if he does even half of what he claims they will see what a disaster it is.   It is too bad if the latter happens.  It will destroy many lives and cause many deaths.  But like George Bush's empty promises you have to blow a few trillion dollars and cause hundreds of thousands of deaths before some people learn.

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We have these tendencies in Europe as well. The prospects for the future darken for many. And the established political parties don't address this. Even the socialists keep repeating empty clichés. Their whole language and way of thinking had been invented by Marx during the industrial revolution, when the factories were crammed with workers, no global outsourcing, computer-assisted automatization asf.

People don't want ideologies, they want practical solutions. Like a program. We do this or that, and you'll get a decent job. That's what Trump did, he made false promises. The right-wing parties in my country do the same.

22 hours ago, Stanley said:

I'm curious to know if the threat of Gun Control would have won Trump many votes. I'd like a $50 note for every time the media in my part of the world replayed the vision of Trump saying "She'll take your guns away from you". 

And if he fails to deliver, he may very well be shot. Though this was perfect poetic and ironic justice, it would mean more barbarism.

I hope Trump resigns early on. Or he does something so dangerous or inappropriate that he is impeached. If not, many countries will follow this example, and WW3 is just around the corner.

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19 minutes ago, Axel said:

 

And if he fails to deliver, he may very well be shot. Though this was perfect poetic and ironic justice, it would mean more barbarism.

I hope Trump resigns early on. Or he does something so dangerous or inappropriate that he is impeached. If not, many countries will follow this example, and WW3 is just around the corner.

Given enough time he may very well suffer gunshot wounds to both feet.

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16 hours ago, Damphousse said:

I agree the Electoral College is not the only nor arguably the most egregious example of an undemocratic process in the United States.  For the sake of brevity and avoiding inflaming certain people I didn't want to make a complete list of all the times certain people have sought to override the will of the people.  But you are correct.  In election after election Democratic policies and ideas win the most votes and yet somehow when we awake the next morning we have Republican faces staring back at us... then we go with guns and bombs and lecture other countries about democracy.  Prior to the election President Obama and Eric Holder had already pledged to work on the problem.  The Democrats should be in panic mode over undemocratic processes.  What they should not do is cynically change policies they believe in and that the largest block of voters like just to win an election.

The electoral college only applies at the presidential level.

Democrats have lost almost 1000 races combined under President Obama.  It should not be surprising that they lost the presidential election too.

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16 hours ago, Damphousse said:

A blue collar white male's life can in many cases be better than a college educated black person's.

Plenty of situations where an uneducated white person was treated the same as an ivy league educated black person with a grad degree...

I take issue with the article you linked to.  It starts off with the false premise that people are claiming EVERY Trump voter is "no good".

When it comes to some voters, it's perception, not always reality.  

You're talkin' identity politics.  I think that's important, but don't motivate a lot of voters.  The Dems focus on that stuff has cause and effect.  Economics are immediate and more important.

A lower middle class rural midwesterner has a pretty good standard of living compared to many other places in the world.  The place where a lower middle class rural midwesterner's standard of living is less than?  Their hometown 40 years ago.  Do bathrooms matter more to a majority of voters than not being able to hold down a good job?  I know my answer to that question.  

All that said, Clinton lost WS, MI, PA by the slimmest of margins.  MI I think was 11,000 votes?  An simple empathetic outreach giving inspirational reasons to MI citizens could have given them a reason to stay away from Trump.  She failed to do that.  Let's not defend Clinton.  She would have made a more stable status quo president, but god she was a lousy campaigner.

Yes, the article is a strawman that deserves skepticism, that's why I linked to it.

6 hours ago, squig said:

America has forgotten what it's like to destroy itself.

I was very close to my Grandmother.  She had stories about the Hoover administration and great depression that always fascinated me.  I see parallels, but whether or not they can unfold in a global economy remains to be seen.  Or, perhaps it's even more traumatic because of globalism.  I don't know.

I do know I have property investments and debt that's currently at risk more so now than two weeks ago and I don't like that anxiety so much... but, whatta gonna do?  

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7 minutes ago, fuzzynormal said:

When it comes to some voters, it's perception, not always reality.

Indeed, that's why politicians campaign in poetry and rule in prose.

The reality of a Trump establishment will be very different to what his supporters voted for and he will have difficult decisions to make that will be unpopular no matter what choice he makes.

There are good ideas on both sides of the political left and right, I just wish people would vote for good PRACTICAL ideas and not hyperbole.

And no matter whether you are a conservative or liberal, good economic policy is good economic policy.

Trump is an economic novice and his businesses have underperformed the market.

7 minutes ago, fuzzynormal said:

A lower middle class rural midwesterner has a pretty good standard of living compared to many other places in the world.

True. But clearly a poverty of the mind is developing in the US and UK.

Artist David Hockney - "One time, I was walking in Holland Park (I was sitting for Lucian Freud), and I stopped to watch some black rabbits playing. So I sat on a seat watching and then some magpies came down, black and white birds, and they looked rather good. I was sitting there having a cigarette and three girls come running by, jogging and see me and come: “Ow, ow… ” [wags finger]. And I sat there and thought: “They think they are very healthy, but they haven’t seen the rabbits.” And I thought: “Well, I’m healthier than they are."

I think largely the Trump thing is a reaction to the sanctimonious liberalism and political correctness that I hate about Clinton and the left, even though I myself am centre-left in many of my political views.

Trump is a big fat steak as opposed to a wet vegan salad.

7 minutes ago, fuzzynormal said:

All that said, Clinton lost WS, MI, PA by the slimmest of margins. MI I think was 11,000 votes?

Exactly why it was important to have a decent voter turnout, there just wasn't enough passion for the wet vegan salad.

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3 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

I think largely the Trump thing is a reaction to the sanctimonious liberalism and political correctness that I hate about Clinton and the left, even though I myself am centre-left in many of my political views.

Trump is a big fat steak as opposed to a wet vegan salad.

Exactly why it was important to have a decent voter turnout, there just wasn't enough passion for the wet vegan salad.

Oh yeah. Sanctimonious entitlement is a little too common among the urbane. That attitude drives me nuts even though I agree with many of the libertarian aspects of identity politics.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/2016/11/18/the_return_of_american_nationalism_396097.html

PC can fade as far as I'm concerned. 

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19 hours ago, Axel said:

We have these tendencies in Europe as well. The prospects for the future darken for many. And the established political parties don't address this. Even the socialists keep repeating empty clichés. Their whole language and way of thinking had been invented by Marx during the industrial revolution, when the factories were crammed with workers, no global outsourcing, computer-assisted automatization asf.

People don't want ideologies, they want practical solutions. Like a program. We do this or that, and you'll get a decent job. That's what Trump did, he made false promises. The right-wing parties in my country do the same.

And if he fails to deliver, he may very well be shot. Though this was perfect poetic and ironic justice, it would mean more barbarism.

I hope Trump resigns early on. Or he does something so dangerous or inappropriate that he is impeached. If not, many countries will follow this example, and WW3 is just around the corner.

the problem is already there with or without trump.....if trump is impeached, pence and the others left are the same or worst than trump

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On 11/17/2016 at 1:36 PM, fuzzynormal said:

I don't know what the big deal is in regards to understanding this phenomenon of a Trump presidency.

Go to the damn Midwest and see how it is. It's really that simple.  Just see the reality they live in and understand their perspective. 

The lower middle class rust belt communities are sorrier than the 3rd world. Believe that. It's true. What the heck do you expect from people in that situation?

One candidate spoke to that reality, one did not. And that was what tipped the scales. 

I don't think anyone would dispute that there is hardship in the rust belt. But did Trump really speak to that reality with his economic policies? Has anyone seen a credible economic analysis of how lower personal and company taxes, higher spending on defence and infrastructure, and trade barriers with Mexico, China etc. will actually help the rust belt? I've seen plenty of economists predicting the exact opposite recently, pointing to ballooning debt, a rising US dollar, higher interest rates and retaliatory trade wars, but without a return of manufacturing jobs.

See here for example for something typical: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/columnists/henry-ergas/trumps-tax-and-trade-policies-could-hurt-australia-and-the-world/news-story/fb76d755cfa68e3f29e9f4048e410a0e

Most economists (well pretty much all that I have seen so far) seem to be saying that Trump's economic policies as articulated, will cause more harm than help. I'd be interested if someone could ferret out some rational economic commentary that has a different view. Could it be that the rust belt might be even worse off under Trump than the alternative? They may have given the middle finger to the establishment by voting for Trump, but also shot themselves in the foot at the same time.

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