EphraimP

I'd bet it would help folks give you feedback if you went into a bit more about the "look and feel" of the image from these cameras that seems different to you than that coming from hybrids that you've used. Is it the depth of field, the color gamma or gamut, the flexibility of working with their files in post, a mystical "cinematic" green tint to the images? 

The other obvious choice to look at right now is the C70. It doesn't need a lot of rigging right out of the box, other than perhaps an adapter to use EF glass (which gives you the choice to spend a bit and get a speedbooster for closer to a full frame look). The C70 won't be as light, but has important cine camera features that may make handling better for you (internal VND, mini XLR ports). You'll get slightly better dynamic range, though a slightly noisier image at the highest ISOs. You'll get that Canon color that so many people love, though a good color grader on here has already demonstrated that you can cut the C70 and a7S III together pretty seamlessly.

What kind of shoots do you do? What kind of lenses do you already have? These questions will most likely figure in to which camera is best for you. 

Sounds like playing with vintage glass and filters that bloom highlights might be things to consider to get the look you are after. 

18 hours ago, Robert Collins said:

Ok, I have to add this one Monogram CC (essentially Palettegear 2.0). It is very expensive - this setup US$499 (although discount coupons available) but it works incredibly well.

Yeah, 5 bills for a job wheel and 6 dials plus a few buttons is spendy. Since I started using a track ball with a jog wheel, I couldn't imagine going without one. I definitely want to find a control surface with dials and maybe sliders to add to my setup. I'm enjoying my Stream Deck XL, how does  the Monogram system fit in your workflow with your Stream Deck? Any connectivity issues like you were having with the original Palettegear?

The more I think about it, the more the Loupedeck idea of combining Stream Deck-style programable screen buttons with dials and preset/function type buttons would be the way to go. Add a few sliders, jog wheels and a track ball with the regular buttons and you'd have a pretty amazing setup, given the right software to make it work. Too bad the Loupedeck CT don't work very well. 

Has anyone had experience with the Loupedeck+? It seems like it would pair well with a Stream Deck for anyone married to the Adobe ecosystem. 

8 hours ago, MrSMW said:

There are of course other options and I’m no fan of subscription software but I use around 4 or 5 of the Adobe products as a suite and so somewhat reluctantly I persist!

Yeah, too true. In a typical project, I'll edit in Premiere, do audio in Audition, maybe slap on a motion graphic from After Effects, pop in an end slide from InDesign and if I'm doing the thumbnail it's off to Lightroom for that. Luckily, my employer pays for the Adobe suite, and I can use it for my freelance work. That arrangement should last for at least the next year. But I'm getting sooo fed up with how buggy and unstable Premiere is that I'm really thinking hard about paying for Resolve and making the switch. I might actually have time starting next month to buckle down and learn it.

30 minutes ago, Mmmbeats said:

Well the C200 is already taller than the C70 before you add a monitor, SolidPod, etc.

True. But it's also much longer, so it seems like overall a better form factor. With a cage, you can mount accessories like a SolidPod to the side, right?

Also, for me, it might be desirable to go with a 5" monitor on the C70. I'm not a big fan of smaller monitors or the dslr-style flip out vs the externa monitor configuration of cine cameras that can be moved around more easily and are better for positions such as holding the camera into your body for better stability hand holding. 

If you plan to use the camera almost always on sticks, a monopod or gimbal, the C70 body style is probably great. If you do a lot of handheld or handheld with an Easyrig style stabilizer, I think the traditional cine camera style is probably better. As with most things, it's a matter of personal shooting style.

8 hours ago, Kisaha said:

IF you need a traditional video camera then you may be looking at something else, for my perspective, C200 needed a lot more weird-tall building that was never very practical for me.

Interesting. What were you building the C200 out, er, up with that you don't think you'd need on the C70? A lot of people do rig up hybrid/dslr cameras pretty tall, which is counter intuitive for getting stable in my opinion. Wide is better than tall and long is better than either.

58 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

Never liked the original one - well documented in this forum and others!

C70 seems like the way forward, I just hope every new release will lower the C70 price tag, until I can reach it. Lately I do more specific TV jobs (assistant director and whatnot), I do not need more cameras, but for a thousand less, I would definitely get the C70 just to look at it late at night when I come back from the episodic TV madness!

Sound like you need to wait for the C50. 

As far as the C70 being the way forward, without a EVF, what about the dslr/mirrorless style body makes it better for you than a more traditional cine-style body? Holding the camera out in front of you with two hands, even with your elbows locked, is in my experience, a less stable shooting method than cradling the camera against your body to establish a third point of contact or shoulder mounting, both of which even a cine-style camera is more suited to.

13 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

I think you really do not grasp at all what LBRY fundamentally is here, they're just a blockchain technology. That's not "pushing a viewpoint" (let alone hysterical hyperbole such as "destroying democracy"), making a claim like that would be even more outlandish than saying that about HTTP, Javascript, or HTML! (although I'm sure there must have been luddites saying similar-ish wild claims back in the 1990's)

I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm specifically referring to Newfoundmass's post that "their main page basically recommended alt-right and Newsmax pro-Trump videos on my first visit." That's what I have a problem with, not the underlying technology. And saying that the the alt-right (led by the Orange Dumpsterfire in the Whitehouse) is attempting to destroy democracy in America is not "hysterical hyperbole." The huge push to try to invalidate our presidential election through the alt-right media and the courts is having, and will have, long lasting effects on our election system. It's not trivial. And you can add the long-term voter suppression push from the right targeting (mostly) people of color and nakedly partisan gerrymandering of electoral districts to that. No good.

8 hours ago, IronFilm said:

I do think it is good to not let yourself slip into echo-chambers of homogeneous samethink...

Seeking out multiple sources of information from different viewpoints is one thing. Supporting a platform that gives voice to or promotes dangerous, falsehood filled propaganda channels like Newsmax is another. I'm sorry, but I can't get behind anything that remotely smacks of the whole Parler fake "free speech" alt-right echo chamber. These people are actively trying to destroy democracy over here and actually killing people and plotting terrorist acts. So, yeah, if LBRY is promoting their content on any part of it service, I for one am not going to use them at all.

I thought I read that it was going to be EF. But who knows. It's definitely making me think about holding off on the C70 to see what it's like, and I was almost certain to order the C70 this month. I'm not sold on the huge mirrorless form factor, so this latest rumor has got me thinking.

13 hours ago, ntblowz said:

I would thought the 24-105 will be better? 70mm is a bit short for me.

Not a problem if you already have a 70-200 F2.8, which I do. Besides, the 24-70 is supposed to have better IQ than the 24-105. Plus, the 24-70 has that little sneaky macro feature, which pushes the length out to 80mm if I'm correct. Almost never break out my 180 mm L-series macro. That's a really specialized outdoor photo macro that's a bit of a struggle to use for video, I'm sure have a macro feature on the autofocus lens that will live on the camera will come in handy for detail shots.

Honestly, while I'm not as crazy for wide angle shots as some videographer/cinematographers, I don't go out to the tele end as much as I did as a photographer. Back in my journalism days, my 70-200 was my baby. I loved that lens for portraiture and only used a wide zoom to get maybe a single establishing shot per photo essay. While video/film is simply a series of moving images, I feel that they are really vastly different mediums of expressions in many ways,

5 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

C70 with speedbooster would be my choice based on your uses if you have EF glass. C70 is just a much more integrated package than the A7SIII imho.

I wonder how long we will have to wait for DGO in a FF camera from Canon that won’t be $16K. I much prefer the simplicity of DGO then the dual gain switching that Sony does. The lowlight party trick is nice but rarely see a use for it. Would rather have a clean image all the time with a linear ISO range. 

I'm heavily leaning towards the C70 for sure as a former Canon shooter who really wants built-in ND and would love XLRs in my next camera body, though I have both DXA Micro pre amp and a MixPre 3. But considering that the C70 has more of a hybrid body style than a regular C-series body, which I'd prefer, and the lower-priced Sony would leave some room in the budget for lenses, it's at least worth asking someone who has them both. I'm also considering that my L-series zooms are about 14 years old and really aren't the best for video, in terms of lacking image stabilization and auto focus that tends to hunt a bit. If I get the C70, it will probably make sense to get the 24-70 F4 L IS USM as the main lens that lives on the body with the speedbooster for interviews and run and gunning.

On 11/23/2020 at 11:27 AM, Oliver Daniel said:

I have a music video to show soon in the A7SIII, and some brand work on C70. 

I can tell you now, the C70 is a much better form factor to shoot with, but, the A7SIII is a monster. That camera is insane. 

So if you had a budget of around $6K for a new body and some EF lenses lying around, say an 17-40 F4L and 70-200 F2,8L plus a 50mm prime, which of the two would you get? Mainly for doc work, with the occasional corporate or event shoot and the odd multi-cam livestream. You wouldn't need it for any photo capacity; you already have a few mirrorless bodies, say Fuji XT series? And, speaking of that, does it seem like one or the other will cut better with footage from other manufactures?

11 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

He seems to still be fanatical about his health and regularly rides (and runs). Plus he is about five years younger than Merckx? And once you get up into your 70's (or worse, 80's), that age gap starts to matter. 

Also Merckx had that bad bike crash last year, and I wouldn't be surprised if Merckx is still feeling a few niggling issues left over from that. Recovery takes longer when you're in your 70's than in your 20's/30's.

But anyway, if you mean in a contemporary sense, rather than right now in 2020, I'd rate Merckx as the better rider. (I've got a bias towards preferring multi day tours vs single day classics)

Of Eddy course was the better rider. He's the GOAT. The question was more to see who you'd be a fan of, based on personality, riding style, ect. I'm a Merckx guy, but that's the easy answer, like being a fan of Lance over Jan back in 91. I was a Marco fan more than anything back then.

6 minutes ago, EphraimP said:

What kind of shape is De Vlaeminck in today? I meant who would you have rooted for back in the day?

Would you have rocked the rust and black or the red, white and blue?

8 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

If they raced today? I'd bet my money on De Vlaeminck.

What kind of shape is De Vlaeminck in today? I meant who would you have rooted for back in the day?

5 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Having an identical ("curated") feed pushed onto everyone is also a dangerous path to go down as well, if anything, that gives even more power into the hands of YouTube / The Curator. A "One Size Fits All" approach is not good. 

Yes, YouTube's algorithm is not perfect, and has downsides. But going back in time to having a small handpicked selection pushed on everyone, would be an even worse outcome. 

This is a really good point. The firehose approach to content delivery isn't necessarily a bad thing as long as the platforms actively weed out hate speech and disinformation. Unfortunately, they aren't great at it, hence our current and soon to be ex-president's seemingly incomprehensible hold on a tragically large portion of our population.. The catch is as viewers we need to be discerning in what we choose to view and use common sense and rationality in how we make sense of what we're viewing. Unfortunately that takes a level and type of education that is sadly lacking in my country at least,

BTW, Merckx or De Vlaeminck?

5 hours ago, aaa123jc said:

I honestly don't get how YouTube's algorithm works. Half of the times, they recommend good contents that I may watch, which is great I guess, but the other half, stupid videos that I'm not remotely interested at. 

Anyway, I think the problem is not that YouTube needs a human editor. What the company needs, is people with ethic to screen out the brainless and harmful contents. But as a company, YouTube doesn't give a f**k about anything other than profit. So the brainwashing stupid videos will keep on existing and blooming as long as there are people who will watch them. 

Part of the issue is that YOU need to be an active editor and work to train the algorithm to serve you better content, by disliking crap videos you happen to watch, activity using the "not interested" and "do not recommend channel" features to scrub your feed of the types of content and channels you're not interested in, and use the search function to train the algorithm.

As individuals, we cannot change the actions of giant players like social medial conglomerates except by carefully organized mass action on a global scale. But we can be savvy enough to reap whatever benefit these channels offer us while negating as much of the downsides as possible.

What about the ViewSonic VP3268-4K 32" 16:9 4K HDR IPS Monitor? Seems to check a lot of boxes while being pretty budget for a monitor? It has 99.67% sRGB Rec 709 HDR10 14-bit 3D LUT Color Calibration. Comes factory calibrated plus can be calibrated with multiple calibrators. Maybe the catch is that the build quality is no good?

2 minutes ago, MurtlandPhoto said:

Ummm.. I think you just named the reasons.

Yeah, probably. Just checking to see if there was anything else. 

I'd love to know how the C70's DIS and autofocus stack up, not that I expect autofocus to be quite that of the mirrorless.

31 minutes ago, Oliver Daniel said:

I have a music video to show soon in the A7SIII, and some brand work on C70. 

I can tell you now, the C70 is a much better form factor to shoot with, but, the A7SIII is a monster. That camera is insane. 

What makes the C70 form factor better, other than the internal VND, mimi xlrs and more buttons, if anything?

I'm really looking forward to seeing your footage with the C70 and hearing more about how it handles and compares/contrasts the A7SIII. I'd love to know if it would run well on an EasyRig style setup, paired with a 5-inch monitor for fast moving doc-style work. I'm sure it works well on a gimbal, but I personally found I prefer the hand-held look and style of shooting. I'm looking to add stability and all-day back comfort for the style and it seems like backpack-crane stabilizer style is the way to go.

10 hours ago, Oliver Daniel said:

It locks on faces well and keeps track, although makes a bit of noise. 

The continuous AF is slower than the A7S3 with native, but still a useful tool.

50mm hunts. 

What EF adapter are you using? I haven't heard anything about the speedbooster coming out yet.

17 minutes ago, EphraimP said:

Since it already has electronic END, why would you want an END adapter for EF lenses? 

Never mind. I realize now that you mean for the SIII, not the DC6. 

3 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

A third party needs to do an END EF adapter or something 

Since it already has electronic END, why would you want an END adapter for EF lenses? 

An EF adapter that made autofocus work well for EF lenses would make this camera more attractive for those of us who have EF lens collections. As it stands, I think the C70 is a bit better option for shooters like me who want to upgrade to a cinema/camcorder body from a hybrid body. I do like this form factor better than the extra large hybrid body of the C70/Pocket 4K/6K, other than the audio inputs on the handle. But, as soon as SmallRig comes out with a cage, I guess the C70 can be rigged if necessary.

20 hours ago, andrgl said:

Grab a cheap used midi controller locally and use Midikey2Key for PC (not sure for Mac, something free is out there,) to remap the knobs, buttons, whatever, for keyboard commands.

Does that video have sound?

19 hours ago, kye said:

I

Zooming back out a little, sorry to hear about your injury, but great to hear you're trying to work around it and potentially take it as an opportunity to improve your setup.

I would go one step further and suggest that this is an opportunity to get an edit controller, learn to use it with your left hand, and that maybe you should think of this as a permanent way forwards.  You'll be building muscle memory, and (assuming you're right-handed), when your hand heals you will have your dominant hand free to do other things while you're editing.  In contrast to that I use my dominant hand for editing control and my non-dominant hand is pretty useless as I'm not as coordinated with it and I don't have any muscle memory for it either.

Thanks, Kyle. I'm definitely taking it as a signal to crank up my editing speed. I'm about to take on a project to edit about 19 ~4 minute videos shot by amateurs and and another editing a ~45 minute news broadcast-style video where I might be the one to shoot presenters in a studio-type environment and stich it together with clips shot years ago by amateurs. To meet deadlines for both jobs and to make a decent return on my time I'll need to edit very quick and efficiently. I think it will warrant a small investment in equipment and time to boost my editing speed. The small BM keypad looks nice, but I'm not sure if you could program it for Premiere or other programs. I'm starting to think that the Elgato Stresmdeck XL can be programed to do all of the same functions and more, plus be usable for many more programs and might even work with my ATEM to run macros for livestreaming.

The trackball I just got has a jog wheel, so I can even have that functionality if I edit two-handed once I can again. I'm not sure why I'd want to edit one handed and use my right hand for something else... to pull a Jeffrey Toobin? Seriously though, research shows that splitting focus on two tasks lowers productivity. And I'm really not sure what I'd use the other hand for.

9 hours ago, Katrikura said:

Hello, a couple of months ago I bought the lopupedeck + console, I can tell you that it has been a quite pleasant experience. It does not improve the times, but having knobs and multiple programmable buttons, you can use it with one hand. I had a similar problem, I had tendonitis in my right hand and I was in the middle of editing a documentary film, I can say that I did 80% of the tasks with my left hand. I hope my story will serve you.

I've thought about loupedeck. It seems that it's primary benefit is for color grading. I'm not 100 sure it will save lots of time. I guess you can program a lot of its buttons as hotkeys, but the Elgato interface is better in that regard.

7 hours ago, Kisaha said:

Kensington trackballs are amazing, the wheel can be used as a jog wheel. I am so psyched about them that I have 2 big ones and a smaller one to take with me when/if edit with my laptop.

That and a good mechanical keyboard are enough for me.

Get well soon!

Thanks, Kisaha. The trackball my wife bought for me to try out is a Kensington with a jog wheel. It makes a significant difference and now I wonder why I haven't had one all along.

So far, it looks like the Elgato Stream Deck XL is going to give me the best bang for my buck. If I was a colorist primarily or if I had tons of photos to edit I'd probably pick up a Loupedeck. I'm still on the fence about it.

So, I broke my hand at the absolute worst time  for video editing ( is there ever a good time?).  I have at least four videos due this month and am about to take on 2 edit heavy video projects. with my right hand bundled up like a mummy, I'm limited to using a very uncoordinated left hand for who knows how long.

Luckily, I have found that a trackball is easier to use than a regular mouse, So my workflow has not ground to a complete halt. And thank goodness I've done all of the key shoots I had scheduled.

The trackball has me considering whether a control surface will speed up my editing and keep my deadlines on track, or even save me money in the long run because I'm estimating jobs and a flat fee vs charging hourly. I edit with Premiere Pro,  God help me,  and plan to switch to DaVinci when I have time to train on the system. I'm interested to know you professional editors out there  have found a device that plays nicely with both systems and is  worth the cost.

Thanks for your input.