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@Andrew Reid

Truly and sadly for not just one similar experience about scratches... But we already read about that failure here, and that everything started even earlier with stupid decision of BM not to call you to be part of their testing campaign. As also that - why anybody need unreliable  P4k when exists solid GH5s, or who needs RAW when S1H has V-log, who needs DLSR body when it could be box etc. As fond, mostly-fan of Eoshd, it started to me to look as some sort of unnecessary continuing private war, with expecting next step/episode of something/anything vs BM.

I just think simply as so: as much as you have all rights to feel firstly neglected, than in other case insulted by some BM personal, it's under level of dignity, achievements and significance of this very your forum to suggest that all buyers of BM cameras are blind about their comparative faults and comparative values. And btw - to the management and marketing at any company I know that I don't mean anything, that I'm literally just a potential sale or a non-sale.

edit, because of question mark in last sentences -

Did you really use that camera as BM reply claims (it seems obviously following posts and discussions on eoshd?)... "as an amount of time had passed between receiving the product and reporting the condition to them, and because the product had been in use as detailed on your website"?

@Andrew Reid

Actually, I suspect that for the second circle of deliverance BM even repacked issued-returned/refurbished cameras from the first and sold them as new; also, there are many complains that point at clearly visible scratches on bodies. Such attitude is sign that BM/G.Petty is constantly in the stage of struggling to stay competitive with  philosophy, prices and still small crews against conservative, restrictive and easier-to-be-solid Japanese giants . If it helps, it seems that BM truly afterwards strive to be as reliable as possible with further contingents, at least of P4K's.

Unfortunately, maybe that must be our accept-or-refuse risk and price for sort-off indeed uncompromising cutting-edge technology-vs-price solutions BM offers to community of indie film makers.

(Regarding their British head of PR vs CEO of Eoshd and all of previous similar matters - I think that's obvious that BM Head of PR is mere transitional dealer and our CEO is one of the few top creators that passionately organize, lead and honestly convey voices of community.  Let Heads/PRs be arrogant, ignorant: if to him, or anyone BMinvolved, fact of 1.2 millions of views at top-pinned topic doesn't mean enough to be especially polite, there will be of no help in trying to diminish importance of BM as unique phenomenon as whole. Actually, it seems to me that inward moving spirit of BM and Eoshd is very close to each other. So, there's not need for carrier of noble spirit  to communicate with mere operative screw-everything-PRHead  

Between lesser (probably for at least some of the users) known authors, I'd highly recommend works of Ye Lou. Encouraging indie-sort of thinking and movie making, there's so much to learn about superior freedom of camera movements and, in general, cinematography out of cliche, as also about cleverly purposed montage, interesting angle of view and way of story telling, building of emotional atmosphere and suspense, rich and subtle usage of serious music add. So, Ye Lou:

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0521601/?ref_=tt_ov_dr

Some more opinions from the same address (about BM employment) that don't look at all like "horror stories"... please check for more by yourself

"An amazing experience"  6 October 2019

I had a chance to work with some of the most amazing people and on one of the most widely used software in the entertainment industry-davinci resolve. Was quite well received by everyone in the team, and my manager was a highly qualified professional and an expert in the field. The company’s culture was a bit conservative i would say, but that’s ok. Would definitely recommend this company to someone who wants to have a stable job with a good work-life balance.

"Great place to be" 10 February 2016

Fantastic working environment! Nice and highly professional people. Great opportunity to stay up to date with the latest and upcoming broadcast and audivisual technologies.

10 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Out of curiosity, I quickly looked up Nikon / Panasonic / Fujifilm / Olympus, they're all around 3 or 3.5 stars as well. 

 

Out of curiosity, I ask myself why, if Blackmagic is here at the first place with exclusively exhaustive elaboration from psychological portrait of CEO down to the ground, title is not more in a line with content.

IMO GH5s unfortunately had many strategic mistakes - I wrote it already at the time, and sorry for repeating it, just regarding prospect of GH6.

First, it was too highly priced camera regarding (most of) targeted users market. If you dropped the most usable and comparatively advanced (for most of the users of that base) quality - IBIS - you can't simply charge 500-1000e more than similar camera that already had it. Dubious Idea of two complementary cameras has it final judge in the pocket of buyers.

Second, Panasonic didn't correct GH5s  price during long announcing period of Pocket 4k. So they've lost great amount of aspiring indie movie making creators as potential buyers. Because whatever we speculate looking at HD monitors, appeal of 12 bit raw (intensified with Resolve's native capability of manipulating it) isn't founded on gimmick.

Third, GH5s was, of course, part of  whole division strategy - it was developed simultaneously and priced inside of bigger calculation together with expectation of coming Panasonic FF cameras as also regarding EVA and upper line of products. It seems to me that all that strategy has to be reconsidered - because of BM and Chinese newcomers. With better sensors and cleaner image at ISO3200, m43 format seems to strongly approved its vitality and comparative advantages in comparison and in spite of aggressive campaign for the sake of FF dlsr-form like cameras - touching 3-4000 or more euros price, they are not at all too or primarily appealing for anybody.

Fourth, GH5s, stepping more seriously in field  of movie making, IMO missed opportunity to finished with concept of baked noise reduction and sharpening algorithm. Also, some sort of raw recording (and forgiving manipulation) it seems today a must condition for staying competitive in targeted field.

As probably all of admirers of m43 values and Panasonic particularly (as far the best reliable camera manufacturer) I hope that everything - including market reevaluation and experience - is at dispose that GH6 becomes really best value and for a long time only camera that most of several user base groups really need.

23 hours ago, midloch said:

So just only for video what do you think?

For video keep in mind way or capability for accurate focusing of moving objects or keeping focus through camera movements. Also, maybe you may consider SLR Magic 10mm T2.

1 hour ago, kye said:

So, assuming I read that right, they're testing the optics only?

Yes, you're probably right - I've misread source as lenstip.com - so I refered to that, they have extensive set of tested lenses and accurate comparison between them, also for all Voigtlander Noktons

Lensrentals always note what camera is used for test - and all of them include internal processing. Further more, what lensrentals testes lack is including of video or movie side perspective of usage (dealing with between frames rendition is science for itself). But even so, at least two Voigts reach top level of "sharpness" at f2.8 without being corrected. Misleading and sort of sterile approach is most noticeable in case of 10.5mm lens - actually probably the most unbelievable thought off of all Voigts. This is lens analog to Cosina's own Zeiss Distagon 21mm,  for which they never even tried to make anything but f2.8 version.

Actually yes - manufacturers indeed put some sort of up-res/sharpening inside software gimmicky even at before-raw level processing... Take a look to, say, Panny 20mm f1.7, stunning "sharpness" with feather like lens... but its "sterility" as trading mark of all more or less (in "Leica" models) Panasonic lenses is, actually, pure result of artificial sharpening/contrasting which reduce natural color distribution.

To put it simply, almost 10 years after first introduction, Voigtlander Noktons stay unique, untouchable by any Chinese  manufacturer of nice ambition. Their production is too precious and expensive and include too much experience and will to play and support (than) new market. Veydras are straightforward and sort of safely one dimensional highest quality lenses... but more than two stops (out of any constructional risk) behind Voigts.

Moreover, all Panasonic/Olympus lenses are internally software-corrected, including so-called sharpness at charting lines, and are exclusively tested in Pana/Oly cameras.  At 0.95 Voigts have enough center sharpness, cleverly diminishing compromises by keeping softness and distortion  closer to the edges to get some 3d portraiture effect. To make them really usable at true T1/1.1, constructors even relied on two different color renditions - mostly by putting less contrast at wide open level appropriate to dark scenes and blooming portraiture/hero effect - that are even not so hard to harmonize in post.

Taking a chance to play on the additional field of m43 advantages, I think that Voigts are mechanical lenses that have incomparable know-how Cosina/Zeiss history and new touches (possible just inside m43 spectre) involved in their construction.

Wonderful movie shot on BMPCC and Voigtlander Noktons, presented in Cannes 2019.

https://variety.com/2019/film/reviews/lillian-review-1203227609/

https://www.screendaily.com/reviews/lillian-cannes-review/5139633.article

About bi-nature... Voigtlanders bellow f1.2 are not at all meant to be sharp across frame, nor it is possible without software intervention...At f0.95 they are way more usable in comparison with 10k Leica Noctilux... At f1.4 they are equally or 'sharper' than any of Zeiss Distagons 1.4... Under f1.4 Voigts (i.e. long experienced Cosina's engineers) are using magic of field curvature for stylistic usability, they offer playing with accentuated bluring-background and, proportionally, more pronounced foreground. It is also sort of great know-how  which is, say, trait that Mercer mentioned about Zeiss Hollywood.

Also, at 0.95 inevitable exists sacrificing of some quality - to achieve totally usable (especially for movie making) center sharpness (which is btw miracle - compare them again with completely bloomed Noctilux or with, say, Meike 25mm 0.95 ), Voigts have strong color shifting that can be corrected in post. Furthermore, Voigts are losing quality of bokeh circle, but keep effect of blooming under wonderful control and highly balanced and original degree at realistic-impressionistic continuum (at least for me). All of that precise calculations involve much higher, more subtle knowledge and years of experience than just to construct properly sharp lens at T2.2

Veydras are very polished, extremely 'honest', but more one-dimensional task accomplished lenses. Remembering, say, El Greco - all of us know that, actually, art and life in all are always matter of aberrations. So, if aberrations are fruit of clever deliberate decisions toward predictable control over achievement, they are closer to art. Voigts are lenses from the ground thought out as one with m43's comparative pluses (mostly for movie making) and minuses (mostly for photography). Also, for Voigts I know for sure, for Veydras it seems as well, that mechanic, used material, quality of glass and their durability are top notch.

39 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

Which is why all roads should lead to Meike for you and your GH5

Or set of Voigtlanders, which was my choice although I already had Veydras - two stops more of usability and some bi-nature rendering characteristics was crucial for decision. Being aware of high accuracy and deep rethinking of Kye,  I mentioned it just for the sake of adding note about follow focus usage with excellent manufacturers of gear rings

https://followfocusgears.com/collections/voigtlandera

6 hours ago, IncriminatingPictures said:

This might be an ignorant question, but the above conversation about lens distortion had me wondering, is correcting for the wider lenses something that BM can correct in a firmware upgrade?

To be more precise - look at "Lens Correction" tab at the bottom of Inspector panel in Edit page of Resolve.

And to be even more precise - and I apologize if you already did it - take a look just at most cinematography-wise acclaimed movie from last year production,  The Favorite by Yorgos Lanthimos

3 hours ago, Kisaha said:

Interesting. Very good prices. Are they any good?

It is just not a run n gun solution.

IDK... To me the most or even only important is precise/smooth manual handling and focusing, and I'm expecting that aberrations will be enough well controlled. But, to be honest, although I understand problem of, say, distorted image at wide focal length, I didn't find that it is so important or distractedly noticeable in moving pictures and movie making for average spectators. What extremely bother me with Panasonic zooms is totally unusable (even for my pretty tolerable criteria) manual focusing. (Granted, I found that 12-35 II has pretty impressive stabilization.) Is it something improved with 10-25 and clutch mechanism, I don't know.

Dzofilm's constructors are promising true parfocal design, and, all in all, true cine lens experience for relatively modest price. I guess that even for such  newcomers  price for FF or APSC counterpart lens will be more similar to Fujinon MK zoom 18-55 (which, of course, doesn't have such UW range). That's why I think that, contrary to death-prediction or afraid by many, it is gold time for m43 movie make aspiring shooters. Simply because of the most important thing - lenses. As much as I've found that Voigts 0.95 lenses are unique regarding value/specs/usability/affordability between all lenses on Earth, it might be that these Dzofilm zooms will match that mark. 

And as Anaconda already mentioned, they are actually pretty small, about 15cm and 1kg what is ideal for run/gun, considering way that I'm using it - combining handheld and quickly shoulder mounting rig. (I simply couldn't stand gimbals, although I tried them, bought and sold several times.)

On 10/12/2019 at 7:23 PM, Kisaha said:

There is definitely an issue here with the native m43 lenses. We pay top money for the best zooms, and the performance is not adequate not even for prosumer use.

For the case you maybe missed it (I sold 12-35 and 35-100 and preorder 10-24)... Actually, IMO it seems that with such newcomers m43 cine-usage case becomes even more attractive

http://en.dzofilm.com/index.html

2 hours ago, Kisaha said:

How about the 12-60mm Panasonic, or the 12-35mm, or the 12-40 Olympus? Does anyone have any hard facts? I guess the only issue is with zoom lenses, but that's a huge problem which I wish knew about it a few months ago.

There's nice review from Florense Piovesan, using P4K almost exclusively with 12-35... Several pages up I posted my own test-clip-story  with same combination.

13 hours ago, tonysss said:

Sorry,  but the picture is really bad, grading is terrible.. it is my opinion

Thanks, and no need for excuse, opinions are always welcome, at least they are now divided  But, apart of usual youtube execution (especially at iso4-5000), it is brief attempt  of two-part quasi artistic  story (not camera-accurateness-intended-showcase) with weird  at first and everyday at second part atmosphere and similar grading goals - and to catch it, it has to be seen all... which might be, I suppose, pretty boring experience.

In the middle of an more serious and exhausted job, I've found two days and appropriate hero to test Pocket 4k and  Panasonic 12-35, all I had with me at the moment... So, to add contribution to the topic of this so lovely camera... Maybe someone find some usable conclusion about its possibility in extremely unprepared, worse than run/gun conditions - except for plenty of will and little bit of ideas.

19 minutes ago, Mmmbeats said:

I am aware that features have been made with all sorts of cameras, including phones.   But huge compromises have to be made.  I shot on a GH4 for years - absolutely love the camera.  But the DR alone would have me pulling out my teeth if I had to shoot a feature with it. 

I understand. But, from the other side, chasing and waiting for more and more just incrementally-important better specs, we often make the worst of bad compromises (apart of falling to addictiveness of network knitted by logical task of market-industry to burn aquisition-lust in us) - that one with ourselves, with our laziness and conformism versus ability and self-sharpening in finding solution. Which are, as you know I'm sure better than me, the most important parts of creative process and indeed outstanding achievement. 

2 minutes ago, Mmmbeats said:

£4K for an image you could potentially put up on a movie screen? 

11 minutes ago, Oliver Daniel said:

Well, Panasonic delivered some beasts and a lot of the internet are still complaining. Then there’s a guy on here saying the GH5 is outdated. What a strange world. 

As a Panasonic shooter, the S1 is looking tasty - too early to call on the S1H. 

Wish all these brand new lenses were more affordable though - the premium has certainly increased over the last few years. 

If I'm asked, you'd already have S1 not just to look at its tasty look, but to make tasty things with it  And S1H also.

Actually, keeping looseness of this thread in spirit of looseness of its announced hero, maybe it could be idea for mr Read, taking in account all goods that eoshd made for Panasonic: to form voting thread with goal to elect most skillful contributor based on here published work, and suggest that one as promoter for, say, namely Panasonic newcoming cameras.

Creativity vote from user base, for its own ambassador of reputation and reliance that will test cameras for all of us. (Needless to say I'd vote for O.D. :) (Although I'd also like to read picturesque descriptions, remarks and comments from mr webrunner55.)  

Just now, BTM_Pix said:

I meant "lost me" as in "I don't understand" but no worries !

This majority of this thread has lost me in both senses though.

 

Thanks, I'll no worry. And I believe and compassion with you in both.

Oh, sorry, I didn't know you are with me, but this one surely will bring you back to me from elite

Just now, BTM_Pix said: