Kisaha

12 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

That should come as ZERO surprise to anybody, because early adopters always pay the price, no matter what it is we're discussing. 

It was pretty obvious the first Canon R cameras were subpar, if not a joke.

Nikon tried harder, they had the best first effort between Canon/Sony/Nikon but missed some important points, so they were going for an upgrade anyway.

From the big 3, someone with a Z6/7 can be happy with what he has and needs no upgrade.

18 hours ago, IronFilm said:

32bit is not having a major widespread impact. I wouldn't call that "revolutionary".

But the Zoom F8? It brought pro level quality and feature sets waaaaaaaaay down into the sub $1K market. That's incredible. 

Yes!

What this little machine can do was really unheard for the price point, and still is too much for too little. It even has automix that I know for certain that some pros use. I wouldn't, like I do not use AF on lenses - and I want to have full control, but the option is there.

Just now, Kisaha said:

Now we talking..finally, Canon and Nikon arrived.

Just feel sorry a bit for the early RF and Z adopters. Those cameras were destined to devaluate really fast and really too much.

Now we talking..finally, Canon and Nikon arrived.

The truth is somewhere in between and I do not see Panasonic succeeding as much.

Panasonic had the SAME market share with Fuji last year, 4%, that is a huge disappointment for Pana with the dozens of products and a huge win for Fuji that started as a niche hipster manufacturer, and Nikon mirrorless apologizer (a lot of Nikon users had X cameras as smaller/backup ones).

Seemingly, with a few right moves, a dedicated video camera first and foremost, better video implementation and some video orientated lenses and upgrade of older designs, Fuji will surprass Panasonic, just like that and without too much fanfare.

if they also bring medium format to the masses, then that's it, they are going uphill.

where Panasonic goes, I wonder? Will they sell 100.000 streaming cameras to make it a success? Plus, 150.000 more S cameras? And 150.000 more m43? And how many Varicam or EVA?

Of course we have to see the official release, but if the pricr is NOT right, this camera will be another recent failure like the newest LX cameras and the v-blogging one, and maybe, even the S releases.

12 minutes ago, Amazeballs said:

Yeah, if its cheap as fuck, I might get one too..  though I highly doubt it.

So..   no IBIS, no 4k120, no NDs... meh

Apparently no XLRs of any kind, no 4:2:2. i said 999$, but maybe I should have said 699$.

3 hours ago, Wronzoff said:

Because they want to keep the price low and target a large audience in need of quality webcam, remote video, streaming, live event.
If you look at the specs with a GH6 replacement in mind it's confusing. But as a new product to cover Covid19 streaming demand, it could be a "smart" product. A GH5s sensor in a box to keep R&D low and that's it !!!
Target is not C70 or Komodo users.

I know what they did. I am just saying it is wrong, and all these different bodies will back fire to them, except its 999$, which in that case I may buy one!

7 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Yes, I reckon this is the GH5S sensor being reused inside a 2nd camera body. 

Glad to see SDI and TC BNC!

Pity it is only 420 internal??

At least Panasonic is being smart about it, and making it be compatible with their existing Panasonic DMW-XLR1 XLR Microphone Adapter.

That adapter is 350-400€, and just 4-2-0 internal leaves it as a specialized streaming camera. No ND also?

Why not make a C70 competitor, with everything, plus those streaming capabilities?

How many different camera bodies do they think they will sell? Hybrid, boxy streaming one, dedicated video? They are over-reaching and divide and alienate their funbase further.

I am not sure about all these.

XLR by adapter only?

4:2:0 internal?

Mixed feelings again for a Panasonic release, still waiting for the official release ofcourse.

Too many products, and some  overlap also.

2 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Amazing! Everything? Been a lead actress on a show too?
 

If they can afford FS7/C300/Alexa/REDs, then surely they can afford the Canon C70....

Haha! No, never in FRONT of a camera!

Assistant director on such a low budgeted, but with high expectations project is like a death wish!

We do 9-15% in the early vening zone (it airs everyday), and they want 12-18%, which is just impossible, but they always ask for the impossible anyway!

Most things are shot with FS7. Some live shows, morning shows, talk shows with studio cameras (usually Sony), and outside productions mostly with FS7, but they can trickle down to GH5 (because of the 10bit codecs). Some use A7sII also.

Biggest productions and high profile ads with Alexas and Reds, not as many as you think!

In between there is some market for Canon cameras, C100mkII - C200 and C300mkII, but you realize that Sony dominates the market.

Everything lesser, happens with hybrids and maybe Pockets (small and very low documentaries, small/low budgeted corporates - Canon C maybe, internet videos - Canon C maybe), and the indie crowds using whatever, even action cams.

23 hours ago, IronFilm said:

I'd hope the typical pro Greek DoP is doing better than 15K Euros per year! That's worse than the average income for Greece. 

The typical, no, the highest paid, yes, a handful (maybe a dozen or less) much better, but still in years of recession and/or covid they do also struggle.

I did a small turn in my career, I work as an assistant director for a TV series now (low budget one but on a very high profile TV channel, I just moved from the prime time as a soundman to the early afternoon zone as an assistant director. Now officially I have done everything in business!).

The DoP earns around 1700-2000€ net per month (depending his years in business) and the first contract is 5 full months with an option for 2 plus months (that is the season here, 7-8 months in total, so do make the math.

I actually earn even less now, but I just wanted to conquer the last castle!

I talked about the C70 with my DoP, he wants to suggest 2 camera buys for a documentary production company which has a contract with a satellite channel, so, sure money for at least the next 5 years, and when I suggested the C70 he told me that they probably do not want to pay more than 3.000€ per camera!!

Everything here is shot with FS7 cameras, and the others (C300, Alexas, Red) on specialised projects or higher end, which is tiny.

This could be interesting.

It probably tries to steal sales from P4K and Z cameras, but we have to see the whole unit, maybe it is just another failed Panasonic half-right experiment with the GH5S sensor.

External raw means nothing to me. Either have it internal, or not at all. Sorry, that's what I think. 4-2-0 internal?

4K/60p is just right for me, I have used 120 frames a couple of times the last 5 years, and I used to do high speed clips for TV ads at one point (specialized cameras of course).

Timecode and audio I/O will be very important for this cam. ND?

It seems like a very low cost version of an GH5S, I just wished for a XC or C70 design, that would be perfect, the boxy thing has some limitations.

I would like to see a specialized m43 video cam competing against the C70 for half the price. That would be my market, and I can live with. I am expecting the usual Panasonic AF crap.

Too many unknowns for now. To be Continued..

4 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Are you doing this full time? Or is it just a part time thing and something else is your real money earner? 

As if you're doing this full time, even at the super low budget end, and you're only getting say $25K/yr, then it is still easy to justify owning a C70. (or similar)

Let's say you have the C70 for just three years, the C70 is only $3.5K extra than a Panasonic GH5 (or a7mk3, or Z6, or whatever). On a per year basis you're only spending an extra $1K-ish!! Even only really low revenue of just $25K/yr that's still easily justifiable to buy a C70.
 

Depending the market.

25K euros here are top money.

Most directors earn as much, or even less, and we are talking nationally televised prime time products.

Most DoP I know earn between 15-20K. 

Very popular artists have 2-5.000€ videoclip budgets (the whole clip), e.t.c

It is most likely top wedding videographers (only the top, but we have a few as the country is a wedding destination) to earn a lot more than DoPs and directors here! And those usually use A7 cameras.

Also, for some poore coutries 5.500$ is the whole family budget.

At the top of the world, rich E.U nations, NZ, CND, U.S, Japan, Australia, I would have bought a C3mkIII, and a C70 and a few others (A7Siii, R5) just for fun.

I, like!

2 hours ago, bwhitz said:

1. Some people just don't like the obvious artificial limiting/crippling of tech... they'd like real competition and better products

2. Some people actually LIKE the boomer-protectionism of the 1980's technology markets. I.e. hacks can just say "I own X or Y expensive camera! You HAVE to hire me now!"

3. Some people like to pretend that there is something "Magical" about $5000 or $15000 cameras that will give them better results over something like a Blackmagic P4K or capable DSLR. There isn't. 

when you are in the field you want to be able to work fast and reliable.

There are reasons some cameras cost 2000 and others 5000. First of all I have spend hundrends of euros for Tilta cage/powering/CFast/SSD/Nano focus/front ND and IR filters (just order a Hoya for that) that are not convinient to work with, and still searching for a better vND than the ones I have/sound options/weird body, e.t.c

With the C70, just add another battery, 2 SD cards, and you are ready to go. No need for building anything on the field, or worry that everything will work, and I work H265 since 2015-2016 with my first NX, so it is nothing to me..

I will say it again, professionals want to worry LESS on the filed, less is more, less is safer, less is better.

I never use my Pocket, because I do not want to worry about hanging cables, SSD drives and USB C connections (I bought the CFAST back then for 500euros because I didn't want to worry about loosing footage), then I have to add the NPF adapter, a Focus monitor, various things on and in and around the Tilta cage, and other stuff..

Working with - cheap- cine cameras is liberating, even if it is 2 or 3 times the price of a GH5S or a P4K.

Building setups like Lego are destined for huge productions at the top of the industry, or exactly the opposite on the lower end. Where most work happens, in the middle, people prefer all in one solutions, yes, even camcorders, mind you, imagine the C70 has the price of some of those camcorders!

28 minutes ago, Towd said:

Thanks!  I came to M43 due to the GH5, and have grown to love the format due to its versatility and lens options.  It is just so tiresome to see doom and gloom day in and day out mostly due to some groupthink consensus that full frame is the future, or necessary to achieve a professional look.

Anecdotally, I worked on a long form project that was shot mostly in full frame and it was a nightmare in post.  So many good shots had to be scrapped because the subjects were not all in focus or drifted in and out of focus.  This wasn't just a missed focus problem that could be corrected by perfect focus tracking.  Even when the subject was bang on in focus, a shot could be annoying or distracting because in a 2 person shot or group shot with multiple talking heads another person might be a couple feet off the focus point and look soft.  Micro racking focus back and forth was even more distracting.

Its also worth noting that Hollywood has toyed with large formats in the past like VIstavision, Showscan, and now I-Max.  They are beautiful formats if you have the time and resources to deal with them, but for every day bread and butter work, I find large formats unnecessarily cumbersome.

I have seen projects that are 80% out of focus, when I tell the - usually - young lads about it, they do not know what I am talking about!

I thought that was, 2-3 years away, but still people believe just being out of focus is artistic, or alright, they do not understand the medium and cinematic language completely.

A month ago I did sound on a low budgeted feature (still will be at the cinemas and already was bought from a big TV network here) with the FX9 - not raw, by the way - and the DoP used mostly 8 even 11f (Canon Cine primes) and only went to 5.6 and 4 very sporadically. Still we had a lot of issues with focus and the director wasn't very happy.

Of course I would love to have everything the world has, thrown into the C70, but I am trying to be realistic.

Yes, I would love it to have raw, and e-ND, and full XLRs, and SDI, and ProRes, and Braw, and other things, but then it wouldn't be the C70, and it wouldn't cost 5000$, or whatever it costs.

I have the P4K, I have never shot braw, and that camera has NO AF while the C70 may have the best AF at the price point, less audio options, terrible battery life, no ergonomics whatsoever, less I/O, a smaller sensor ofcourse, no ND - which is like number one priority for video cameras. Why don't you go to the P4K thread to complain about all the issues and omissions, I wonder? 

If you compare the C200 release, which HAS raw, you can go and check my opinion back then, and you will see that I was right (same with the first Canon RF cameras), they were stop gap releases, not long time solutions like this C70 is. If you need raw more than what the C70 offers, the C200 will be quite cheap for people to buy it really soon.

Discussing for ever what a product does NOT have, it is just a waste of time in my opinion, but feel free to express yourself as you like ofcourse, sorry if I sounded autarchic, just can not see the point I guess.

The turning point for me, and a lot other professionals in the field, was 10 bit files, and that will be enough for most things in the near future at least, raw is good to have for cheap (P4K) but it isn't a selling point for me and the pros I see working around me.

Cheap raw solutions is more for hobbyists and semi-pros as I see it in real life. I literally have seen noone shooting raw in anything less than a feature, and definitely not on a C200 (par example), I believe using raw is a lot less important than we believe it is in some forums, and maybe Canon knows it.

25 minutes ago, maxmizer said:

my opinion is that it might actually be relevant to say that:
Canon C70 / 100 are entry level camcorders, as they are Fs5 by Sony, Eva for Panasonic etc ... (for videomaker)
Then below (for price) we have cameras ... Canon r5, A7 series from Sony, SH or gh from Panasonic ... (they take photos and also record videos)
The only two exceptions are precisely Black Magic Design and Zcam. (for what the Pocket does at that price really ...everyone he should have one in his bag ...)
So I think the Low Budget professional world is something more than the aforementioned camcorders and cameras ...

I own a Pocket, mostly for the reason you just described. I never use it though. In low low end, you can use whatever, it is mostly a hobby, or a side job, in the professional world a C70 will be in everybodies mind, as a A cam for most projects, or B cam for bigger ones.

C200 didn't have a broadcast ready codec, and that killed it in sales, Sony with the FS7 just dominated the market for half a decade, and now they have the FX9, Canon strikes back, and the C70 is the tip of the spear.

I have to see the FX6 though, and whatever Panasonic brings with that BMGH1, or whatever its called, but Canon does it, and Canon is Canon, it survived with sub par products and silly decisions, now they strike back, and they strike hard.

It may be a special GH video camera, not a hybrid. mini XLR, ND and the goods...

great info!

I would expect more people are going "streaming" these days, especially in this forum, and we will see more hardware solutions soon.

This Feelworld maybe more available as well, than the ATEM, the pro though, is very very tempting..

Whoever wants raw, can go to other threads, there is a whole sub-forum.

It is a product, if it doesn't have what you need, go to the next option.

On another forum, some criticized a certain car for being too small, the guys were complaining that a small B suv didn't fit them well, the guys were 1.95-2.00m and 130-150kg!! Why complain to the car company, when obviously you have to check a C or even a D suv to fit a quite large human specimen! It is nobodies fault, the product obviously wasn't right for them, but it wasn't the products fault, they were just cases outside of the "golden mediocrity", as I like to say for people like me, just in the middle of things!

If raw is a necessity, this camera will fail, if it is not, then it will sell amazingly well, and I am betting is going to be the second.

Let's concentrate more to what the camera CAN do, for us that consider buying it, than what it can NOT do, for people that will NOT buy it.

I consider go to R6 as a photo camera and a little bit of video, and C70 as main video camera. Maybe keeping the P4K, maybe don't, I am not sure, have to many lenses and systems right now. I may concentrate on EF/RF for the future, Canon is still relevant after half a dozen years, or so. It is incredible. They deliver, at least, I can not complain really.

4 minutes ago, Django said:

As a Canon EOS Cinema owner since the C100 (which I still own alongside C200) this is my dream Canon cine cam.  Scratch that, it's my dream cine cam period. I will be selling off my C100/C200 for the C70. 

Of course perfect it is not, I will be missing Canon RAW Lite, EVF, SDI & custom LUTs.

I'll be keeping my FS7 for gigs where EVF, SDI & LUTs are mandatory.

I think I might also upgrade EOS R to R5 for RAW/8K B-cam shots.

If anyone in EU is looking for a good deal on a mint boxed C200 with CFast media, HMU! 

Finally, after a few years of disagreeing about the C200, Canon delivered the goods!

There will be a huge depreciation of C200 cameras in the wild.

The C70 is all I need for sure. We agree here. This is an unprecedented release. The form factor seems amazing, I have the Focus so I do not need SDI, T/C is there also(!). Everything seems amazing! I am not sure about the cost, it is 7000€ with the adapters here, and I am keeping the Pocket I think, just for..

For the other issues some brought:

Not once I have used Braw on my Pocket. Most people use it just because it is there, not because it is needed.

Most of the productions are using FS7, and recently, starting to use FX cameras. Noone shoots raw for TV, and we started delivering some 4K content in 2019. Most things are still 1080p delivered. I am talking about professional TV stuff on the greatest channels, not local stations which still use camcorders mainly and C100mkII at the best.

Thank you very much for the time of writing this @BTM_Pix.

I am doing my research right now, but it seems like the bottle neck is the bandwidth.

Thanks.

1 hour ago, Oliver Daniel said:

I don’t understand some of the negativity I’m seeing with the C70. It looks like a fantastic concept and will serve many people very very well.

People who want RAW from this aren’t understanding it’s purpose. At least in the UK - documentary, corporate, music videos, brand promos.... 99% shot with 8bit or 10bit codecs. 

In the whole world, not just U.K, 10bit especially is a must have and enough for most stuff anyway and for faster turnaround and internet stuff 8bit is still used by MOST.

https://www.newsshooter.com/2020/09/24/canon-eos-c70/

Very interesting review.

Canon now is nothing like the Canon of the past, and there is a C50 rumored on the way with the C200 sensor. That would be interesting as well, but doubt it will have 10bit which is much more appreciated than any kind of raw.