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DPreview initial review - https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/panasonic-gh7-initial-review

34 minutes ago, EspenB said:

How many months to merge the GH6 body with G9M2 internals?

You seem to know better than Panasonic how long it takes to develop, produce prototypes, debug/refine/test/certify, then make pre-production units, then an initial production batch and then gear up for full production - so why don't you enlighten us?

(I've worked as an electronics design engineer for 40+ years, so I have some idea of development timescales)

34 minutes ago, EspenB said:

The GH7 was probably held back until the GH6 inventory was low enough.

Maybe - they'll likely do whatever they think will make them the most money overall/minimise any losses - it's a business with shareholders to keep happy and employees to pay...

1 hour ago, EspenB said:

Panasonics market share are miniscule, they have to operate at a slim budget. Thus the GH7 is lots of used parts and bits, with some extras added in.

Nothing bad about that - it's what companies do all the time. Car makers are past-masters at 'parts bin' design, it spreads the base 'platform' development costs across more vehicles and means they have different models to target different parts of the market. How many variants of the same generation of iPhone do Apple sell?

I suspect persuading Panasonic higher management to fund the considerable development costs of a new, higher performance, 4/3 sensor for m43 cameras like the GH6/G9 ii/GH7 was quite difficult (versus probably just abandoning any serious m43 camera development). We just have to hope it works out in the long run for the future of Panasonics camera division.

2 hours ago, EspenB said:

Come on. The GH7 is basically the G9M2 internals in a GH6 body positive form factor. Then add a few new bits of hardware and firmware. It's seems like the cheapest way they could possibly engineer the GH7. No new sensor, no new body design.

Would you prefer they spent a lot of time and money on a new body design and designing a new sensor, delaying the camera and having to charge a lot more money for it?

Personally I think they've done exactly what they should have done - merge the best parts of the GH6 with the best parts of the G9 ii, to create what's hopefully going to be the best pro-video orientated micro43 hybrid camera ever.

Latest 'spec' update on 43rumors.com (apply usual skepticism etc.) - note 'Prores internal Raw recording' is listed:

Quote

Most features of the Lumix G9II – >I guess this means same 25Mp G9II sensor?

Phase detection AF

Prores internal Raw recording

New XLR unit will be announced along the GH7. It has 32bit float recording

has large fan

Lumix LAB app support

in Stock in July

$2200 launch price for the GH7

5 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Gee, didn't realize the existing options for Panasonic was so bad:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/products/Mirrorless-Camera-Lenses/ci/17912/N/4196380428?sort=PRICE_LOW_TO_HIGH&filters=fct_brand_name%3Apanasonic%2Cfct_lens-mount_3442%3Aleica-l-mount%2Cfct_lenses-kits_7315%3Alenses-only%2Cfct_zooms-primes_5903%3Aprime-lenses

$600 for a 35mm f1.8 or $800 for a 24mm f1.8 or $900 for an 18mm f1.8!

They really needed to develop a cheaper lens, even if means a compromise on image quality, even if it means it is slower (but not slower than f4) to cater to the wide angle needs of S9 users. 

20mm f4 would have been a fantastic lens for the selfie shooter. Throw in a mid-wide like a 35mm f2.8 at a very cheap price, and you'd have lots of happy S9 users. 

There are some reasonably compact L-mount Sigma wide primes around e.g. 17mm f4, 20mm f2, 24mm f3.5 and 35mm f2.

The 17mm f4 and 24mm f3.5 are about 49mm long (and have aperture control rings). The f2 lenses are around 70mm long.

But realistically, for most people, the upcoming 18-40mm collapsible zoom is the lens the S9 needs (and should have had available at launch), with the existing (larger) 20-60mm zoom the next best alternative.

13 hours ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

ProRes RAW is not owned by Atomos in any way.  It's Apple's codec.  The biggest problem thus far is that it's raw enough that it seems to violate Red's patent.  Black Magic raw, on the other hand, is apparently less raw in such a way that it skirts it (or at least, BM haven't been perceived as enough of a thread for Red to take any sort of legal action against it)

I think the the RED patents cover only compressed RAW in-camera recording, so using an external RAW recorder does not infringe them.

Blackmagic RAW is partly de-mosaiced, color space converted and processed before compression, so is a bit 'grey area' as to whether it's really raw anyway in the file. But the point is that it's designed to provide what you might call 'raw equivalent' post-processing flexibility.

From a YT video about BM RAW (the three processing blocks on the left are in-camera):

A Blackmagic RAW patent - https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/71/7a/bb/ae23088049e011/US20180367775A1.pdf - and the abstract from it:

Quote

Processing raw image data in a camera includes computing a luminance image from the raw image data, and computing a chrominance image corresponding to at least one of the sensor's image colors from the raw image data. The luminance image and chrominance image(s) can represent the same range of colors able to be represented in the raw image data. The chrominance image can have a lower resolution than that of the luminance image. A camera for performing the method is also disclosed.

7 hours ago, John Matthews said:

Honestly, I think Panasonic expected some grace for that 26mm pancake, but what likely happened was a delay or a problem with the 18-40 rather than a hiccup in the actual camera or category of camera.

I think that too, but I suspect Panasonic decided that it was more important to launch the S9 now (to some extent to ride the X100VI wave and pick up some sales from people who can't wait for one of those). The 26mm pancake feels to me like a 'we gotta have a really small lens, in a hurry, to sell or give away with the S9' rushed product - otherwise why would it be manual focus, given the target market? If it had been maybe F4 with AF, even if that meant it was a bit longer, I suspect the S9 launch YT videos might have been generally much more positive.

2 hours ago, John Matthews said:

Someone had a question about this and in fact, the S9 CAN shoot 1080p 60fps and 100fps in full-frame with PDAF. Others were also saying this but without any proof. 

Good news - something else I'd expect to be rolled out to the S5ii/iix in due course.

38 minutes ago, Marcio Kabke Pinheiro said:

Somebody mentioned that the EVF is new, a OLED one now - a good move, becasue almost everyone hated that field sequential one. But no confirmation until now.

Compared to D-Lux 7/LX100 ii, it's got OLED EVF and higher res rear screen, plus USB-C charging. See https://m.dpreview.com/news/3471020867/leica-continues-compacts-with-d-lux-8-featuring-four-thirds-type-sensor

2 hours ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

Also, C70 has rolling shutter, but I think it's around 16ms - so it looks mostly fine when shooting moving stuff/moving the camera around.  It has the advantage when overcranking to 120fps that it doesn't need to crop in at all, but the disadvantage of turning off DGO and losing dynamic range (though then the RS is even less, like 8ms or something).

C70 rolling shutter numbers from: https://www.optyczne.pl/48.4-Inne_testy-Canon_EOS_C70_-_test_kamery_Jakość_obrazu.html . 'Matrix' = Sensor (Google translation confusion...)

There's also some DR tests towards the bottom of this page - https://www.optyczne.pl/48.3-Inne_testy-Canon_EOS_C70_-_test_kamery_Użytkowanie.html

10 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Thus surely it must be a MFT camera???

(or it's a P&S, no mount at all) 

So by a process of elimination the most likely cameras would be a Panasonic GH7 or GX9mk2??? 

Maybe an extremely small outlier chance of something such as say a Panasonic BGH2 (i.e. a BGH1 but with the guts of a GH6 inside it instead) 

I'd put it 50/50 an updated LX100 (as the Leica equivalent has recently been announced) or a successor to the S1R (related to the recent 60MP/8k video capable Leica SL3).

Unless of course Panasonic is intending to leave the upmarket-looking cameras to Leica as part of their collaboration agreements and concentrating the Panasonic brand on the 'value' and video-orientated end of the market? In which case maybe a GH7 or S2H?

I think a GX9-size/type m43 camera is least likely - it would be very close both in target market and release date to the S9, so what would be the point?

4 hours ago, kye said:

In terms of the quality of the frame grabs, it will be down to the codec with more bitrate being better.

I don't know if h264 or h265 or Prores would be better, but it would likely come down to the way that they render the very flat areas of the frame.  All the codecs will prioritise the sharp and contrasty areas of the frame at the cost of the flatter areas, which potentially have huge macro-blocking issues.

From this perspective, uncompressed or lightly-compressed RAW video would be highly preferable.  Depending on what standards you have for your use-case, you might want uncompressed RAW only.

I think if camera makers were to take simultaneous capture seriously, then maybe they could record a 4k/6k/8k video stream at a normal video frame rate to one card slot, plus simultaneously a stream of reduced rate stills - e.g. 1/2 or 1/4 of video fps - at full (or near full) sensor resolution as compressed raw or high quality JPEG/HEIC images to the other card slot. That might get close to the best of both worlds.

We've already got cameras like the S5ii that can record a 4k video stream plus simultaneously a reduced resolution 'proxy' video stream, so it I suspect some cameras already have enough processing power to do something like that.

1 hour ago, Dave Maze said:

My experience with Panasonic USA hasn't been the same as his experience. I have been told explicitly that they want our honest feedback and opinions and they have never had any say or sway in the content.

Chris and Jordan say basically the same thing in the latest PetaPixel podcast (it's a 30 minute discussion from 16:39   )

1 hour ago, John Matthews said:

Maybe it's me, but I can't remember the releases of any camera manufacturer, but I think I'm not the only one to remember the S9.

I think the S9 marketing has worked then 😉.

Talking of remembering releases for the wrong reasons, something I remember from the original OM-1 launch was OMDS getting a professional filmmaker to use it for a promo video. Except it also included BTS footage showing the camera (as far as I could tell) rigged out with non-OMDS/Olympus lenses, matte box, cage etc. mounted on a tripod for some of the time, surrounded by a crew. It was the very opposite of the 'rugged outdoor adventure' usage the rest of the OM-1 marketing was pushing. They should have got someone much closer to the target market to make the video promo content, using OMDS lenses and showing off how good it can be hand-held. Content that potential customers can relate to and think 'yes, I could do that and the camera looks a good tool for it'.

Actually, I suspect the S9 has got more coverage online and on social media than they hoped, even if it hasn't happened as planned. A lot of the adverse comments fueling this seem to be coming from a photography enthusiast base it isn't really targeted at anyway, and from video enthusiasts who seem disappointed it's not the S2H or S2R they'd prefer to be discussing.

(Not referring to people on this forum) I don't really understand why so many people seem to be upset/annoyed by the S9 - it's just a consumer camera at the end of the day.

13 hours ago, kye said:

Often I will see a moment about to occur and I have 2s to start recording and by the 4s mark the moment is over.  I miss lots of these because the camera is in my hand by my waist and I can't get it turned on and in focus in 2s.  Lots of my clips have the first 5 frames of the clip being the nice moment and then the smiles fade as people turn away etc.  
My situation is obviously extreme, and I'm 100% aware of this and that almost no-one is operating like this, however it throws the situation into very clear focus for me

It happens to me all the time with wildlife photography/video... 🙂

43 minutes ago, Marcio Kabke Pinheiro said:

Yep, lens size is what prevents me to go FF

Me too (so far).

43 minutes ago, Marcio Kabke Pinheiro said:

Or (this is my dream that no manufacturer will ever do) a small good quality f/4.5 zoom.

The problem is nicely illustrated by the FF Tamron 28-200mm f2.8-5.6 versus the m43 Oly/OMDS 12-100mm F4 Pro. The Oly is a great lens, both optically and to use, but it's pretty much the same size and weight as the cheaper the FF Tamron (which covers basically the same FOV as the Oly). Almost certainly the Tamron is far more optically compromised though.

40 minutes ago, kye said:

Unfortunately, the FF systems can only get this kind of size by starting with a short AND slow zoom, so there's nothing to trade-off, and the super-zooms are just enormous by comparison.  Unless they trade off the same amount of aperture and make something like a 24-240mm F5.6-11, but I can't see anyone being willing to admit such a lens would even deserve to exist, let alone be desirable.

The Panasonic S 28-200mm f4-7.1 Macro OIS lens probably gets closest, which at 93 mm long is about 6mm longer than the 20-60mm f3.5-5.6 and about 19mm longer than the m43 14-140mm f3.5-5.6.

Another one is the E-mount Tamron 28-200mm f2.8-5.6 - about 25mm longer than the S 28-200mm and 40mm longer than the m43 14-140mm. 

But both of the FF 28-200mm are only x7 zooms, not the x10 the m43 lens gets you (but that is pretty small for its zoom range).

15 hours ago, John Matthews said:

Camerasize.com now has the S9, just so you know. I only saw that just now. Here, we have a proper comparison to a camera and lens I own:

This is S9 versus some similar size MILC alternatives that you can buy new (from the left, ZV-E1, A7C ii, S9, OM-5, X-S20). Paired with what I think are the most compact mid-range zooms currently available from each camera manufacturer.

The small size of the 28-60mm f4-5.6 lens on the ZV-E1 and A7C ii does rather make the point that the S9 really needs the upcoming 18-40mm lens (and maybe a compact 28-70mm or 35-100mm). 

55 minutes ago, John Matthews said:

Don't tell me they don't have DPAF in it? If not, it would sell only because it's a Leica.

AFAIK, it doesn't have PDAF - it's basically an updated LX100 ii.

Now a black and silver LX9 or LX1 with the 4/3 25MP sensor and processing from the G9ii (albeit with inevitably short recording times) would be far more interesting - 21MP stills, PDAF, lens OIS plus great EIS, no-crop 4k and excellent FHD?

I'm not holding my breath though, even though I think that's what Panasonic really need to appeal to the upmarket end of the 'cute camera' market as well as the enthusiast compact market.

2 hours ago, MrSMW said:

Whether this current shitstorm will make any difference in regard to YouTube marketeers remains to be seen, but probably not so more storm in a teacup probably.

I agree.

I would hope that most people are not gullible enough to believe that product reviews are 'warts and all' - they are subjective to varying extents, including what to put in and leave out. If you're getting paid to do it (including payments in kind, like 'free' trips) there is always going to be some 'don't bite the hand that feeds you' pressure around, even if it's not overt from the marketing dept. Magazines need advertising revenue, professional social media content creators need sponsorship income. It's nothing new...

6 hours ago, IronFilm said:

I would have thought then it makes more sense to be doubling down on the Panasonic LX15 / LX100 series. Bring out their next generation of them.

It's interesting that the Leica D-Lux 8 has just been announced - https://www.dpreview.com/news/3471020867/leica-continues-compacts-with-d-lux-8-featuring-four-thirds-type-sensor - (looks like same 20MP 4/3 sensor as LX100 ii/D-Lux 7), but with OLED EVF and higher res rear screen, plus USB-C charging).

The D-Lux series have always been Leica versions of Panasonic 'enthusiast' compacts, so might an LX100 iii be on the way (as LX100 ii was discontinued a while ago)?

2 hours ago, John Matthews said:

Put 30 experienced artists in a room with 1 newly graduated art critic, it will be the art critic who will be considered the expert.

I agree.

My wife does artistic painting etc. as a fairly serious hobby (to the extent of exhibiting and selling it). At an exhibition it's usually the artists who are the most down-to-earth people in the room, as they know what's involved in creating, promoting and selling it - which is overall a lot of work (just like making decent video content is).

Art critics are essentially product reviewers - they look at an art product and tell you what they think about it, sometimes implying 'meaning' in the work that I strongly suspect the original artist never intended (and who is probably dead so can't challenge the opinion). That's no different really to many other sales and marketing activities.

16 minutes ago, John Matthews said:

First, I should say I like Gerald Undone's videos and I watch most of them. My criticism of him is that he portrays himself as an expert in 2 fields: 1) cameras; 2) YouTube setups (he walks around with a clipboard grading them). Now with this video, he is adding to his repertoire and he sounds like he portraying himself as a "moral expert" when it comes to the relationship with companies. Again, Gerald, the expert, and, as you know, "we should all listen to experts". I'm not a fan of "experts," maybe after watching F or Fake. 

It might sound like I'm being excessively harsh on him and I'm sure there are many who are much less of an "expert" than him, but I don't like that attitude. I think he's full of crap when it comes to him explaining how he takes the moral high road. I think he too, will take the cash when shown. That's just my opinion.

He's on my subscription list and I watch some of his content if I'm in the mood for his style and I might be interested in the product he's talking about. But I think he's sometimes got an exaggerated sense of his importance, which grates a bit sometimes.

1 hour ago, kye said:

The 12-35mm F2.8 and 14-140mm F3.5-5.6 are basically the same size, and when combined with the GX85 are about 120mm deep, so 140.1 mm deep is perfectly acceptable for a body + 7X zoom lens setup.

Exactly (GX85 + 14-140mm is my current travel cam).

Versus the GX85 or GX9, you get 24MP stills, PDAF, a dual-gain sensor with good high-ISO performance, 4k50p/60p (albeit with a crop but so does the GX85/GX9 in 4k), a higher capacity battery, better stabilization, variable electronic zoom, a mic input, H264 and H26 10-bit recording at (in round numbers) 24/25/30/48/50/60p up to C4K, with higher resolutions up to 30p, at up to 4:2:2 and 200Mbps long-GOP.

Viewed as a GX85 & GX9 successor, it makes a lot of sense, especially once the 18-40mm zoom is available.

(At the moment, buying used from a dealer in the UK, a GX9 + 14-140mm would cost around £700 - £1000 so that's not a cheap camera either). 

Panasonic UK have two S9 kits listed on their website, one with the 20-60mm f3.5-5.6, the other with the 28-200mm f4-7.1 Macro OIS lens (but no price as yet for that kit).

Comparing the sizes of both on the S9, the 28-200mm kit looks like it might be a nice FF travel cam combination at just under 900g total weight including battery. According to Panasonic W x H x D is 126 x 73.9 x 140.1 mm with the 28-200 (the 20-60 is just 6mm shorter and 63g lighter):

Amateur Photographer magazine in the UK has estimated the length of the upcoming compact 18-40mm F4.5-6.3 at around 40mm, which is about half the length of the 20-60mm.