ac6000cw

(duplicate post)

4 hours ago, kye said:

I'm not familiar with the Olympus lineup at all really, but that E-M5iii seems quite interesting actually.

What are the relative advantages & disadvantages compared to the GX85?  I can see it's more expensive, has a slightly smaller screen, and of course it has PDAF.  If I was to upgrade from the GX85 to it what would I gain and lose?

I've not owned/used an E-M5 iii (played with one a few times), but I have owned the very close relative E-M1 ii, so this is based on using that camera and what I know about the E-M5 iii.

Gains:

MIc input (and better sound from the on-board mics). Better IBIS. No-crop 4k at 25 & 30p plus (excellent) C4K at 24fps (only). Good (IPX1 rated) weather-sealing. OLED viewfinder. All-I 200 Mbps compression option for FHD, otherwise it's max 50 Mbps IPB for FHD, 100 Mbps for 4k and 237 Mbps for C4K (all VBR). Simple/quick switching between stills and movie mode via the 'function lever' on the back. More physical buttons and dials, including a front function button. Lots of control programmability. The 'Super Control Panel' (Oly's equivalent of the Quick Menu) is nice/very useful.

Losses:

It's basically a plastic body (to keep the weight down - it's slightly lighter than the GX85), so maybe doesn't have the more premium feel of the GX85. The FHD video is soft. The video compression isn't as good as Panasonic at similar bitrates. Weak tripod mount. Restricted choice of focus areas in video (compared to stills). The Olympus menu system...(but you get used to it eventually). You can't save several custom video setups (only custom stills setups). If you press the video record button in a 'stills' mode it always uses P mode (irrespective of the current stills settings).

Flip-out screen on E-M5 iii versus tilt on GX85 - a personal preference thing.

4 hours ago, Tim Sewell said:

Gotta say the ZV-1 is ticking a lot of boxes.

I thought it might...😉

6 hours ago, Tim Sewell said:

The obvious answer would be my GX80, but the sound - as we all know - is abysmal and there's no mic input either, so I'd have to record externally. Will I remember to start recording? Did I mention the tipple situation?

I've had a play about with my EOS m and the newish crop_mood Magic Lantern build. It's an excellent build, but I'm still getting the odd bug-out and since my idea for a film includes vox pops, I just don't feel it's reliable enough.

So option one is GX80 and I'll spend GBP170 on a Zoom F2 for the sound, or I trade in the GX80 for around GBP200, then spend <GBP400 on a different small, interchangeable lens camera that will give me a nice image and an audio input. Question is - what?

It's a bit bigger and heavier than a GX80, but the G80/G85 is basically a GX80 with better IBIS and a mic input (same 16MP sensor, so same 4k crop factor). More expensive (used) but closer in size and weight to the GX80 is the Oly E-M5 iii (this is basically a simplified E-M1 ii in a smaller body, so you get PDAF, great IBIS, a mic input and no-crop 4K).

I'd also agree with Mercer re. the ZV-1 (it's really small and has a mic input).

Comparison of GX80, E-M5 iii and G80/G85 (all fitted with the 12-32mm pancake lens) - https://camerasize.com/compact/#673.397,835.397,689.397,ha,t

1 hour ago, mercer said:

Yeah that's annoying too! I liked the XC10 when I had it. I thought it was a lot of fun to shoot with and it felt like a point and shoot cinema camera but I felt that way about the FZ2500 and the RX10ii as well. All of them had really nice lenses, good internal preamps and decent internal codecs. And you're right, any one would probably be good enough for more than half of the people that read/contribute to this forum.

Every couple months I look to see if there are any new prosumer camcorders on the market. 

I've been round the 'should I buy an FZ2500 or RX10' loop several times over the last few years (to partly or wholly replace my micro43 stuff) but I've never bought one.

The main reasons are the size and weight of them relative to G9 or GX85 plus 14-140mm lens - see below (from the left - GX85+14-140, G9+14-140, FZ2500, RX10iv), and the high quality of the video from the G9 (including 4k50/60p and 4k24/25/30p 10-bit 4:2:2). The GX85 (or GX9) plus 14-140mm combo is noticeably smaller and lighter than the FZ2500 or RX10iv. 

Which option would you choose? 🙂

(and yes, I know the FZ2500 and RX10iv have a longer zoom range than the 14-140mm lens plus power zoom, and the RX10iv has PDAF).

1 hour ago, John Matthews said:

I've also seen stuff. Usually, great ideas originate from junior or female managers. Almost always, their ideas are poo-pooed by a senior manager, only to be taken up later with a different "wording" by said senior manager. Classic.

That scenario underpinned the storyline of the excellent 1988 film 'Working Girl', directed by Mike Nichols (of 'The Graduate' fame). One of my favourite movies.

1 hour ago, John Matthews said:

I find it amusing they'll start on April first 2024.

I thought that too 🙂

1 hour ago, John Matthews said:

I'm fairly sure the GH2 was the camera that started all of this. Once hacked, it was getting comparable results to DVX series of cameras. The shit must have hit the fan at that point. I'm fairly sure, starting from the GH4, they had reps from the pro video division having their say about what becomes "consumer" and what doesn't.

I think that was said (unofficially) at the time, or at least hinted at. Certainly later on Panasonic implied there had been exchanges of technology and development between the consumer and professional video divisions in the GH5 era. None of which is very surprising, really.

No experience of recording to them from a camera directly, but I use a 500GB T7 (non-Shield) at home for video files, and we use several T7 Shield drives at work for daily off-site backups. Performance is good (and doesn't slow down noticeably when they being worked hard and get hotter) and so far they've been reliable, They also seem well built.

10 hours ago, kye said:

My close vision has finally lost its battle with decrepitude and I'm now trying to work out how to proceed.

I can't see the LCD screen to save my life, don't want to wear reading glasses on the point of my nose like an octogenarian (vanity is a virtue, right?), and don't want to use the viewfinder because I don't want people to see me holding a camera up to my face (despite the fact that the EVF adjustment compensates for my vision).

Life is full of challenges....

It's not a 'challenge', degraded close vision is just a very common issue as we get older. Just get your eyes tested at a decent opticians, explain what you need to do, sight-wise, and see what they suggest to fix the issue.

I've been short-sighted (degraded distance vision) since I was a teenager, and now 50 years later I have the usual age-related degraded close vision as well. So I became a wearer of varifocal spectacles at least a decade ago and I think they are great (albeit they are most expensive lens type). The best ones have three 'areas' (if you need it) - distance correction in the upper part, reading/close-up correction in the lower part and mid-distance correction in the middle part e.g. for when using a computer monitor or the instruments when driving. Some people don't adapt well to using them though.

(...and I wouldn't want to "wear reading glasses on the point of my nose" either - it's just not necessary these days when there's so many better choices to correct vision problems).

On 1/1/2024 at 10:37 AM, John Matthews said:

I'd just like to clarify my goal: I want the smallest, lightest kit possible to produce either a good enough 1080p (free of fatal flaws like moiré or aliasing) or 4k image. I'm looking for an equivalent of a super 35 f/2.8 image at around 28mm S35 field of view (around 42mm FF equivalent). I'd like to fit it with a variable ND and CPL filters.

I'd agree with the others that you've already found the best ILC solution.

Personally I don't expect any new very compact ILCs to appear (warmed over stuff like the G100D excepted) - I think that market segment is largely catered for now by small RX100/ZV-1 size 1" sensor compacts plus larger sensor phones. I think it's not that camera manufacturers couldn't do it, more about if there would be enough customers willing to pay a high price for something like a G9 ii sensor and processing sqeezed into a sub-GX80/GX9 size body, with the inevitable limitations on recording times and battery life.

Re. IBIS - I've now sold all my older cameras without it, because I much prefer doing most shooting handheld. I don't like an obvious 'handheld' look (overused sometimes in films and TV), so like Kye I rely on IBIS plus stabilisation in post if necessary. It's mostly why I live with video quality limitations in exchange for IBIS performance on the E-M1 iii and OM-1 (the OG G9 IBIS gets close, has worse AF and better video quality - swings and roundabouts...). The ZV-1 in 'active' SteadyShot mode (OIS + EIS) is quite decent but IMHO not up to E-M1 iii/OM-1 standard - but it is pocket sized after all...

3 hours ago, mercer said:

I must admit that I have been very tempted to try out the ZV-1. I guess if you want to go real cheap, the F version is a possibility as well. I've had a couple RX10ii and I really like Sony's 1" sensor cameras.

Note the F and mk ii versions don't have OIS (only EIS and embedded gyro data for stabilisation in post). It was a major reason I bought the original version recently - I've got used to having good stabilisation on micro 4/3 cameras.

I think limited 4k recording times on very small cameras is just one of the compromises you have to accept (battery life is another) - e.g. the GX800 is limited to 5 minutes in 4k, the LX100 and TZ100 to 15 minutes.

This is the recording time info in the manual for the ZV-1:

13 hours ago, kye said:

To change the subject slightly (and with apologies to @John Matthews) after shooting with my GF3 and 15mm F8 pancake lens I've been thinking about tiny cameras further, and am wondering what the best option would be for the smallest and fastest 4K camera setup without a super-wide lens.

To be specific, I want it to turn it on, aim it, and hit record and be capturing 4K / 100Mbps video in the lowest possible number of seconds.  To this end, auto-everything is preferable, except auto-focus, which has to either be fixed focus or fast enough so I never have to wait for it.  Essentially, I want an action camera, but I don't want the super-wide FOV.

I've re-read the thread, and here are the options I think are on the table:

• Zcam E1 with 15mm F8 body cap lens
• GX850 with 15mm F8 body cap lens
• Sony RX0 (mk1 or 2)
• iPhone

Things that don't make the cut:

• Cameras that are too big: GX85, Olympus E-P7, Osmo Pocket series
• Too wide FOV: action cameras
• Modifying an action camera with third-party lens

Things I'm not sure about:

• LX10 (is the AF instant and reliable?)

Are there other options I missed?  Other thoughts?

If the LX10 is a possibility, then maybe the Sony ZV-1 (the original version)?

Lens OIS (plus EIS in 'Active' stabilization mode). Also records gyro data for stabilization in post.

4k 24/25/30p at 100Mbps, FHD at 50Mbps, no crop in 4k, Cine/S-Log/HLG picture profiles (but only 8-bit).

PDAF.

Startup time about 3 seconds, including adjusting the zoom to where it was last time.

Good on-board audio (with an included furry) plus a mic jack (which doesn't foul the screen when it's hinged out).

The manual is here - https://helpguide.sony.net/dc/1910/v1/en/index.html

Downsides that I've noticed so far:

The battery life when shooting video is poor (there's just not the space for a large battery in a body that small...but 3rd party batteries are cheap)

Anything screwed into the tripod hole blocks the battery/card door from opening.

Only one control wheel.

The Sony menus...

In the small/light/cheap micro4/3 lens category, the Pan 14-42mm F3.5-5.6 II kit lens is worth considering - twice the length of the 12-32mm, but has a focus ring and (on my copy at least) a smoother zoom ring. Both lenses on a GX85:

5 hours ago, kye said:

Other interesting small lenses I don't have include:

• 7artisans Photoelectric 18mm f/6.3 UFO
• 7artisans Photoelectric 18mm f/6.3 Mark II
• Olympus M.Zuiko Digital 17mm F2.8 Pancake
• Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7
• Lumix G Vario 12-32mm F3.5-5.6
• Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 14-42mm F3.5-5.6 EZ

I own the last three lenses on that list.

The 20mm F1.7 is a nice lens optically, but for video use its AF is noisy and the minimum aperture is F16 (versus F22 for most micro4/3 lenses). No OIS.

The Pana 12-32mm F3.5-5.6 is nice - weighs almost nothing and is very compact when closed and has OIS (with dual-IS support on the GX85 etc.). No manual focus ring, which means no MF on Olympus/OMDS bodies as they don't support MF adjustment via the camera body controls (AFAIK all Olympus lenses have a focus control). Panasonic does support body MF control for it. Tends to be my go-to lens if I'm taking a second camera on a trip, to keep the size down.

Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 14-42mm F3.5-5.6 EZ - I think it's OK but nothing special - the power zoom isn't especially smooth, but it does have both zoom and focus rings on a slim pancake lens.

On 12/16/2023 at 12:29 PM, kye said:

Yep, that sure is small....

If Panasonic do announce an updated small-form-factor MILC it'll be interesting what they choose.  They sure have made some progress with sensor design since the GX85 / GF9 came out, so hopefully it'll be a good bump in spec 🙂 

Do you have any footage to share @John Matthews?

Here are a few old 2160p25 and 1080p50 SOC clips from my GX800 (which I no longer have) - https://drive.google.com/open?id=13vWtrMzGKQ5qR1l2zCr_NBVjIowFuy4V&usp=drive_fs .  All hand-held, probably using the 12-32mm or 14-42mm kit lenses, standard picture profile, shutter priority (using the 'flicker reduction' setting). The train going over the road crossing (P1000474.MP4) shows the rolling shutter nicely.

1 hour ago, PannySVHS said:

Gx800 and Gf7 have all auto only in video iirc.

On the gx800, if you're happy with 4k30p, you can use '4k photo' mode to shoot video with PASM control. Also you can use the 'flicker reduction' menu setting to fix the shutter speed to 1/120, 1/100, 1/60 or 1/50 in normal video mode.

2 hours ago, stefanocps said:

i never see at canon..i don't know they seem to be at the bottom of choice regarding price/quality. For what i read they offer always lees than the other. Is it not?

I don't own the R7, but this is a detailed review of its video capabilities - https://www.optyczne.pl/65.1-Inne_testy-Canon_EOS_R7_-_test_trybu_filmowego_Wstęp.html

Have you thought about the (APS-C) Canon R7?

In the UK the R7 bundled with the RF-S 18-150mm f3.5-6.3 IS STM Lens is £1799 at the moment, so you might be able to get it within your budget in Italy.

Has decent IBIS, good AF and dual card slots, and some contributors on here like it. Does 4k60 and high quality oversampled 4k up to 30p (the rolling shutter is high at 30ms in oversampled mode, but much better at 15ms in the subsampled 4k modes).

Re. L-mount lens choices - Don't forget the S5ii/iix is APS-C crop in 4k60p (and you can choose APS-C crop for other video modes), which means the cheap but good Pana 20-60mm 'kit' lens becomes about 90mm equivalent at the tele end.

There's also a pixel-pixel crop mode, which is about 3x magnification in FHD so 180mm equivalent (at reduced video quality of course).

43 minutes ago, stefanocps said:

fx3o at that price is  high for me, as in euro comes like 2400...

What about the much cheaper A6700 (which probably has the same sensor as the FX30 and can do 4k60p and 4k120p, but no fan so overheating may be an issue)?

14 minutes ago, ac6000cw said:

(If you can live with micro-4/3, a used G9 plus the cheaper/smaller/lighter Pana 12-60mm lens will get you excellent 4k60p and superb stabilization for peanuts - around £700 for both used)

...and 4K 30p/25p/24p 4:2:2 10-bit internal recording at 150Mbps H264/AVC.

5 hours ago, stefanocps said:

i think if i go for alternzative it is x s20, i like fuji, i would change for a more videocamera style device but all the other a part fx30 are not this style

Is this meant to be a dedicated video camera or a hybrid for both video & stills?

If it's for hybrid video & stills use, the X-S20 is probably better overall because it has a mechanical shutter and a viewfinder. One downside of the Fuji's is they don't support plug-in power for microphones, if that is important to you.

The FX30 is electronic shutter only and no viewfinder, but has a cooling fan (better for long recordings) and the E-mount lens choice is huge. At the moment Wex in the UK are selling a new FX30 body for £1879 (with a voucher code) until 31-01-2024 - https://www.wexphotovideo.com/sony-cinema-line-fx30-camera-3069656/

Also, if you are thinking about the S5 ii, note it has a major crop in 4k60p (so it's an APS-C camera in that situation). It's the same situation with most of the other lower-end FF cameras.

(If you can live with micro-4/3, a used G9 plus the cheaper/smaller/lighter Pana 12-60mm lens will get you excellent 4k60p and superb stabilization for peanuts - around £700 for both used)

I own the E-M1 iii , OM-1 and original G9.

With the video IBIS set to maximum (Oly) or in Boost mode (Pana) and something to lean on (or you're good at standing still), I would say 'yes'.  Not used a GH6 or G9 ii, but the E-M1 iii & OM-1 stabilization can be almost magically good sometimes.

8 hours ago, John Matthews said:

It's a spec war; they'll have to, regardless whoever says what. Of course, the same argument could have been make about PDAF and it too them how long? I guess we'll soon find out if they learned something from all of that.

Yes - If Panasonic is intent on being a significant player in the full-frame hybrid market, they have to offer 8k video now that Sony, Canon & Nikon offer it. Fuji even have it on the sub-$2000 (APS-C) X-H2.

As Panasonic and Leica have been long-term camera development partners, if Leica are going to have 8k video on a camera soon Panasonic can't really be far behind in offering it. I'd be very surprised if the the new Leica doesn't have largely Panasonic electronics and software inside it.

8 hours ago, John Matthews said:

It could be a high-res version of the S5 ii or S1H ii.

I'd go for a high-res S5 ii, as they've already done the video-centric 'x' version of the S5 ii.

If it is that, any bets on it supporting 8k video?