Jonesy Jones

Good eye man. I'm even the one who posted that screenshot and I didn't catch it. When we posted it, Luke even said something about us looking at the wrong things. I thought he meant something else. He said it was quite comical. Now we know what he meant. So no question. New camera.

Great image. I think you're right with this HLG and Leeming lut combo. I have yet to see another setup that gets skin as correct. Will probably be buying soon. Quick question, are your 16mm images shot with or without ETC enabled?

@Cliff Totten @jonpais @Andrew Reid Not sure if you guys saw or read my incredibly long and boring post in the middle path thread, but I am pretty certain this new camera will either have the same sensor or a new iteration of the sensor that is in the current GH5. My logic is as follows: Luke has shared several images from his production with the new "camera" (or whatever it is). The resolution of the larger image is 6656 x 2496. Currently the GH5 has the ALL-I anamorphic mode that shoots 3328 x 2496. So, with a 2x anamorphic lens, which Luke is shooting with, the images will be exactly 6656 x 2496. He also shared 2 smaller images that were 3328 x 1248, which is obviously an exact 50% decrease from the larger and would make complete sense that he just descaled by 50% for those. There is a 4th image that is exactly 6656 x 2496/1.73333 = 3840 x 1440, which I think is Luke either just experimenting with the horizontal resolution of UHD, or the vertical resolution of Youtube's 1440 res. Could the new proposed Starvis sensor have a 3328 x 2496 anamorphic mode within it's max 4168 x 2824? Sure. But does that seem a bit contrived? It does to me. Unless there is something special about 3328 x 2496. Which by the way is also an EXACT 1/3 decrease from the current GH5 open gate of 4992 x 3744. (I'm assuming that 1/3 decrease helps with ETC and IBIS.) Therefore, because these shared images are exact simple ratios of the anamorphic mode of the current GH5, I'm thinking that either A) this new camera has the exact same sensor as the current one, or B) it is a version 2 of the same sensor, with improved specs. We've actually seen this before with BM's URSA and Micro Cinema Cams. The version 2 of those same sensors gave us more fps and supposedly better IQ. This could be a version 2 of the current GH5 sensor, or a recalibration with improved specs. Luke's title of "The Middle Path" has had me thinking. I've been focused on the word "Middle", however I think "Path" is just as significant. Luke is very familiar with Red, and even discussed Red in that exact same thread. Red is well known for their upgrade "Paths", and the more I think about it, the more this new thing seems like it could be an upgrade program with the current GH5. I know there is no precedence for this from Panasonic, but I am thinking there could be an upgrade path for current GH5 owners (since it just came out pretty recently) to whatever this new camera is. I think that upgrade will cost $500, or $2500 for the new camera itself. And this also comes from simple math based on Luke's multiple uses of 1524.8% times the camera in relation to using the $38,120 Arri anamorphic lens. Bottomline, I am thinking that there is a new camera based on an improved version of the current sensor. It will cost $2500 or be a $500 upgrade for current GH5 owners. It will have improved video features. Better low light, audio, and auto focus would be my top guesses. But I think more DR and better color too (Luke's images are just superb). I don't think any of those specs will be "omg this is the last camera I'll ever need to buy" amazing, but they'll at least be better than they currently are. Maybe a better monitor? Maybe improved focus assist stuff? Maybe 10 bit 60 fps or 72 fps? Maybe more? Again, I think we should manage expectations here, but it's not inconceivable that all or most of those hypotheticals are at least improved to some degree for this new video centric GH5.

How's the focus throw? Is it at least longer than all these af lenses?

I know and this is sad right? I started that post committed to finishing it. But half way through I was like, this is just really sad. But I was committed to finishing. Hopefully in the coming months I change this around and actually do filmmaking. No. Earlier is this thread Luke clearly states that he is using a Wooden Camera Pl to M43 adapter. I guess Griffin Hammond is in on this too? Why is he shooting the screen? Is there no mic adapter in this shot? Why is the camera so inconspicuous in all of Luke's bts shots? Ok. This is a sickness. I'm out.

EVERYTHING WE KNOW AND CAN ASSUME ABOUT THE GH5(s). On Nov 6 @Neumann Films posted in the Panasonic GH5 - all is revealed thread with one of his infamous cryptic posts about something NEW coming and to keep an eye on the thread in the coming weeks. I think its safe to assume that since this was posted in the GH5 thread, this "new" thing is GH5 related. In other words, its not a G9 or EVA2 or whatever, it's a GH5 something, but yet required a new thread. Could it be a GH5s? Is there any hard evidence for the GH5s title? On Nov 22 here at EOSHD @jase here and in another thread @PannySVHS here speculated about a GH5s. 3 days later a rumor surfaced on Photorumors about the GH5s, and then again a day later on Nov 26 43srumors claimed that Panasonic will be releasing GH5s with ultra low light sensitivity as well as Panasonic breaking up their flagship line similar to Sony's line-up. Is it possible these rumor sites are scavenging EOSHD threads for content? The point being that this GH5s title appeared first (as far as I can tell) here in the EOSHD forum, then on the rumor sites, and not the other way around (the rumor sites even admit uncertainty on the name). So I wouldn't count on it being called the GH5s. Personally I like GH5X. Your guess is as good as mine. On Nov 8 Neumannfilms released a vlog (go to 3:05) of Luke unboxing what sure looks like an unmarked camera box. On Nov 21 Luke stated "Different cameras do different things. Sony cameras have the low light capability and that is one of their main calling cards. The GH5 is more "all around" in my opinion." Notice the italics Luke used in that statement and keep in mind his fondness for giving clues. "Different cameras" and "low light". Could this mean that this new something is in fact a "different" camera and that it has improved low light capabilities? It also seems reasonable to assume that since the GH5 is more "all around", this newer camera will be more video centric. On Nov 22 Luke began this new thread titled "The Middle Path" A ***** **** Short. Again, assuming this is another clue, what could "Middle Path" represent? Some have suggested the new something is a firmware update, yet that would have to be one heck of an update to be called a middle path. Could it be a codec... like the missing "middle" codec of the C200? Maybe. But the GH5 already has a better "middle" codec than the C200. So I don't think that's it either. Once again, unless Luke's short film has something to do with Gandalf and the Hobbits of Middle Earth, this hint leads me to assume this "Middle Path" is a new camera priced and featured somewhere in between the GH5 and EVA1, and hopefully not priced right in the middle :). Note: as mentioned earlier, @PannySVHS quickly surmised that the ***** **** could in fact stand for "Lumix GH5s". Sounds good to me. Who knows. On Nov 22 and then again on Nov 24, 43rumors claimed that there was a "BIG" product announcement coming in December, specifically Dec 15. The thing is, there is no official word of this announcement from Panasonic. Isn't that weird? I mean, we know something new is coming, but we have no word at all from Panasonic. I have no reason to doubt the December 15 date, but we're less than 2 weeks away and still no word from Panasonic. Hmmm... On Nov 23 Luke said in his Instagram "Giving thanks for lenses that cost 1,524.8% more than your camera." Now I thought this was weird that he'd be so specific, to the decimal. I began to do some research on the cost of the lens he was using, but then I got sidetracked, fortunately Max Yuryev did not. If you take the cost of the Arri anamorphic lens that Luke rented for his short film "The Middle Path", which is $38,120 on B&H, and divide it by 1,524.8% you'll get 2,500 (or multiply 2500 by 1524.8 and you'll get 38120). Seems like this camera is going to cost $2,500. Also of interest, Luke said something similar on the same day here on this forum. It was similar, but not an exact quote, so it was not a copy and paste. However, the percentage was identical. 1,524.8%. This was not a random number off the top of his head. That number is meaningful. On Nov 27 Luke said on this forum that "Everything is a rumor at this point. Who said it's a camera? A rumor site? I would take it all with a grain of salt until something official is announced. ?" Wait, does this mean Luke is saying it's not a camera? Or is he merely suggesting that we manage expectations? I suspect the latter. On Nov 28 @Andrew Reid wrote an article about what the GH5s could be. His take was based less on rumors and more on a new sensor Sony has developed that could very well be implemented in a new GH5 series camera. In the video that I referenced earlier by Max Yuryev, he discussed the possibilities from this new sensor as well. And as compelling and intriguing as 4K 120 fps, dual ISO, low light, better auto focus, and much greater DR is, there is one interesting issue.... resolution. A quick look through this very thread will reveal 4 images Luke has shared from his short film. If you download those images you'll notice that 2 of them are 3328x1248, 1 is 3840x1440, and 1 is 6656x2496. How this is relevant is that the supposed new sensor is 4168x2824. Now it's possible Luke up or down rezed randomly to end up with those resolutions, but I seriously doubt it. Here's why. The full open gate of the current GH5 is 4992x3744. Using a 2x anamorphic lens (which Luke is using) would give you 9984x3744. Some simple math will reveal that the largest and smallest of the images Luke has shared are exact simple multiples of the current GH5 open gate. The largest being exactly a 1/3 decrease (6656x2496), and the smallest being exactly a 2/3 decrease (3328x1248). I SIMPLY CANNOT SEE THIS BEING A MERE COINCIDENCE. It also explains why the images look so clean... they are being down sampled from a much larger image. As for the 4th image, I can see no mathematical reason for it's dimensions other than perhaps Luke just wanted to see what his image looked like once it was down rezed to a standard UHD TV screen, since that is the exact horizontal width. EDIT: Even though the above could be correct, I have realized there is a much more simple interpretation of the numbers. So, the GH5 has a 400 mbps ALL-I anamorphic mode that shoots at 3328x2496. With a 2x anamorphic lens, this will give you exactly Luke's larger res image of 6656x2496. So I think that image was entirely untouched as far a resolution goes. The smaller images are EXACTLY half that, so probably just a simple 50% resolution decrease on Luke's end. And the other image bears no simple straightforward mathematical factor to any of the sensor resolutions, so I'm inclined to still believe my original thought that Luke just down sampled it to the horizontal resolution on a UHD monitor, which it is exactly. Bottom line, I believe this new camera carries either the same sensor as the current GH5, or a new iteration of it. On Nov 29 @DBounce posted some photos of Casey Neistat holding/using a camera that may be the GH5(s). In the photos it seems as though there could be a red ring around the dial, which obviously the current GH5 does not have, but the new G9 does. Perhaps this is the trend on new Panasonic cameras? The photos are honestly quite convincing. Seeing as how Casey has recently switched to a GH5 it makes sense that he'd also get his hands on a prototype. And there is yet another tidbit that supports this. On Nov 27 I had made the argument that since Luke used a manual focus lens for his film, and Panasonic was contracting him to highlight it's features, there must not be any new auto focus features to this new camera. Luke responded by admitting that on the GH5 product launch, he was only contracted to highlight 1 or 2 new features, but there were other features to highlight, but "that was someone else's job." In the case of this new camera, that someone else could be Casey, who would obviously make an ideal candidate to highlight an improved autofocus system. IN CONCLUSION I BELIEVE The new product is a new camera. Not a firmware update. From the unmarked camera unboxing, to the middle path, to the photos of Casey Neistat, and more, there is too much evidence that supports this being a new camera. The new camera will cost $2500. The multiple uses of 1,524.8% are not a coincidence. This is in line with the cryptic title "The Middle Path" and is itself further evidence of this being a new camera. The new camera will have identical open gate resolution to the current GH5. I realize this flies directly in the face of all the rumors and sensor talk of bigger but fewer pixels, but I simply cannot get past the fact that the one guy we KNOW has the new product is posting images that are dead on exact multiples of the current open gate resolution. The new camera is in the GH5 family, but who knows what it's called. All the rumors agree on it being a GH5 something, and Luke beginning discussion of it in an old GH5 thread supports that. The new camera will be more video centric with improved video features. My first guess would be improved low light, or maybe dual ISO. If Casey does in fact have a prototype then I'd also say improved video auto focus would be in there too. Beyond that we're left to just speculate. Could be improved IBIS (or maybe anamorphic IBIS). Better audio. Magnification while shooting. More DR. Improved color. Man I'd love false color. ADDITIONAL THOUGHTS Could there be more than 1 camera or product being released? Perhaps the camera Luke has is not the same as the one Casey has. One for cinema? One for vloggers? The images Luke is posting are stunning. Maybe they are simply the result of an ultra nice lens and Luke's talent. But something tells me these images are richer than the ones that come out of my GH5. Do we dare say RAW? But how would greater than 4K RAW be recorded internally in a GH5? Never once did I see an external recorder in Luke's bts. Sorry if this is stupid, but I can't get it out of my head. In every single instance where Luke is shooting, the Panasonic DMW-XLR1 XLR Microphone Adapter is attached to the camera. Every time. And only once is there a mic plugged in. Could this observation answer the questions to the previous two bullets? Preposterous.

Another stunning image Luke. Everything about these images is so creamy. I'm guessing it has something to do with the cheap lens you used. What else is interesting is that the last dimensions were 6656x2496. This one is 3840x1440. An exact proportional decrease by a factor of 1.733333. Any reason for that? That's an odd resolution shift. I dunno. It's late. Maybe I'm missing something simple.

Sage, upon further review you have done an excellent job with the color matching. I assume this is where you spent most of your time, and again I think it is excellent. There is a slight tendency in your conversion toward magenta compared to the more green Alexa. But this the simplest slight adjustment on our end, but I thought it worth noting. The one thing that I do find odd though is the roll off. On my monitor your added roll off is too harsh. It removes too much of what was there. Question, would that be easy to mitigate on my end? Could I bring back some of the highlights lost with your lut?

This looks really great. Thanks for doing this Sage. The powers that be here have been pretty heavy handed lately, but I wish you all the best with this. My 2 cents would be that it is pretty pricey. Not that $65 is crazy expensive, but it seems well above what the owner of this forum charges for his profiles. And most lut packages come in under what you are charging. I'm going to look at this again later, but to my eye it looked great. Thanks again for what I know was a lot of work. I hope it pays off.

Couple questions for you Jon. That Oly is actually a 17mm correct? I have no experience with their "clutch" focus mechanism. How does it compare to fly by wire or a traditional focus ring? On an unrelated note, I was looking at the metadata from my GH5 and Lumix 12-35. The camera would correctly label the focal that I was at, say 17mm. However, the 35mm equivalent was different than a simple 2x crop. Should have said 34mm, but said 39mm. It did this with every focal length. So is the GH5 crop like 2.3x instead of 2x? @jonpais do you know anything about this? Lastly, does anyone here have experience with the Voigtlander 17.5? Thoughts? Particularly regarding the focus throw? I hate how some of these still lenses can move 10 feet with a 32nd of an inch turn on the focus ring. I assume since it's purely a manual lens it is probably pretty good. Just hoping someone here can give me their hands on experience.

Then why would he photoshop it out? Anyway, if you look at Luke's video..... no red button.

The skintones are absolutely stunning. Here is the bts of that shot. What is curious to me is why Luke would choose to shoot that shot from the roof of the car. Why not shoot from the ground? Maybe the dolly had something to do with it and he just decided to get that shot while the robot was up there. Maybe the extra 4 feet played a factor? Maybe the white paint worked as bounce? The final image is very nice. Colors look fantastic. And it takes a decent amount of DR to get such nice exposure on a subject that is that backlit without proper lighting or bounce.

Help me with this Max. To my knowledge you get your 16 million color values (actually 16.8 million) by using 256 shades (2 to the 8th power) for each of the primary colors, RGB. So 256x256x256 = 16,777,216. And then yes, 16.8/15 yields 1.1 million. However, using that same process but with 10 bit in which each channel has 1024 shades or values -- 1024x1024x1024 -- equals over a billion (1,073,741,824). And 1billion/15 yields 71.5 million, which is obviously much greater than the 2.6 million colors of 6 stops 8 bit footage, even when compressed. So yes, 15 stops of DR with 10 bit files and over 71 million colors is a good thing right?

If Neumann was contracted to make a film with a new camera, wouldn't he be asked to highlight the new features? Seeing as how he shot with a completely manual anamorphic prime, I can't see there being new autofocus features.

Jon, I just have to say that you are a workhorse. Between these lens reviews and the tips and tricks on the GH5 and the HLG posts, you have more than been a source of great info. And with this post, you have really begun to sell me on this focal length. And I keep forgetting about the benefits of ETC. Good stuff. Beautiful shots. Great work. Quick unrelated question, does ETC work with anamorphics? I have no anamorphics with which to test.

Lukes post 1 page ago, seen here, clearly shows a 2x anamorphic.

I just saved 15% on car insurance by switching to Geico.

I think a simple definition of terms is in order here. If by DP we are referring to the larger studio films. Yes, most likely they won't be shot on DSLR's or prosumer cams. Those DP's rarely own their own cameras any way. Compare that with someone like me who not only owns my camera but prefers to shoot AND direct my own small budget productions. Even though I am technically doing what a DP would do, I am fine not falling into that official ASC DP category. Instead I would call myself a filmmaker. The funny thing is, personally I would hesitate to call any of the individuals involved in the big studio productions a filmmaker. I mean the roles have become so specialized that who could really say they made that film? This article that Andrew wrote not long ago really put things into perspective for me. Like most, I had become infatuated with the idea of an expensive camera with ALL the bells and whistles. Not realizing that those very things were holding me back creatively. Once I let go of that paradigm, so much else fell into place. Shane Hurlbut ASC doesn't give a crap what he shoots on. He tests the cameras at his disposal and chooses the one that best fits the project, even if that means a DSLR. Being a DP is important for some. To me it's irrelevant. So is the size of your camera. To quote @Andrew Reid "Aspirations should be creative." Not technical.

I like the skin of the lower more. I assume that's the C500.

Colors look awesome @mercer. Also the locations are very photographic. Keep up the great work. When will we get to see some moving pictures?

If you watch the video Jon posted you'll learn that s-log is already HDR/HLG. The curve is the same. Logs look great on HDR TV's right out of the box.

Jon, this was an absolutely great watch. Thanks for posting. For those who are wondering what all this new lingo means, this video, though kinda long, explains it well. Here are my take aways. (Those more technical than I are encouraged to point out my mistakes.) Rec 2020 has to do with color, not luminance. It greatly broadens the amount of color values that can be displayed compared to Rec 709. Also, Rec 2020 derives it's name in that it is supposed to be the standard by the year 2020. Meaning that Rec 709 was standardized in 709. AD or BC the video did not say. HDR describes an increased luminance range (I think all of us filmmakers know this one). SDR's limitation is 100 nits. HDR's limitation was confusing to me since at first I thought I heard 1000 nits, then he started describing another format (2084) with a threshold of 10,000 nits. Suffice it to say, HDR has a whole lot higher brightness threshold. With HDR, white will be at 100 nits, and anything above is highlights, like lightning or fire. Also, he didn't say this, but my impression is that HDR seems to be a catch all name for greater luminance AND the greater color format rec 2020, even though this isn't accurate. There is a dilemma with HDR in that broadcasters would need to deliver or transmit 2 formats, HDR and SDR, for people with either display. HLG is an attempt to solve this dilemma by being one delivery format for either HDR or SDR displays. HLG has a 5000 nit threshold. All the log (s-log, c-log, etc) formats delivered by our cameras these days actually look great on HDR TV's. These log formats make a great master for future proofing. Don't make rec 709 masters. Atamos Inferno or whatever it's called makes a great and very color accurate HDR monitor. An English accent makes you 10 times smarter. That's all I can remember. Thanks again Jon for sharing.

The work you've posted here is awesome Kidz. You continue to work to get the most out of your gear, and this is exactly the right approach. I have already learned a lot from you, and may even reach out one day with questions. Keep up the great work.

So several year ago at NAB Dolby had this booth where they showed off HDR. This was pretty new at the time. They had 2 monitors. One showing a 4K image. The other showing an HD image with HDR. It was kind of a blind test. Most people would choose the HD with HDR over the 4K image as the better, higher res image. Theres probably 1 zillion variables that could influence perception beyond the few they highlighted, but the take away is that HDR was a more noticeable image improvement than 4K, but only required a 25% increased data rate compared to 4K. However tech companies and TV manus still went with 4K. Why? I think because resolution is an easier sell to a consumer than dr. It's easier to understand. With that said, consumer res will top off at 4K for the long long long foreseeable future. Broadcast and streaming are still not really ready for even 4K. Even though 4K TV's are inexpensive, I still know only 1 or 2 people with a 4K TV. But I do think 4K TV's will start building steam. And I think HDR will also become a thing if manus can make the image improvement noticeable. Current TV's just look horrible. The bar is low, so should be achievable. TV manus need a next big thing. 8K is just too much data and too stupid, at this point. 3D never looked great and was more a novelty. I still can't understand why anyone would want to watch a 3D movie. 4K HDR is still a bit off, but will be the thing.

I am super new to the anamorphic world. Well, I never owned or used one and am just now looking into them. Anyway, your footage is among the best I've seen. It has that cinematic quality without trying too hard. Thanks for posting. Any information you could point me toward would be awesome.