BWV656

I have been a long-time follower of Roger's blog at Lens Rentals, which gives us not just a rare glimpse inside camera gear, but also an expert eye on construction quality, weather sealing and the repairability of it all when you drop it! To celebrate Roger's latest article I had the chance to put some questions his way, to dive into his thoughts on the 600mm, the potential for a 'universal' mirrorless mount and of course the EOS R5 overheating controversy.
Read the full blog post and interview here:
https://www.eoshd.com/news/an-interview-with-roger-cicala-of-lens-rentals-on-canon-rf-600mm-teardown-and-more/

Pants down and knickers shit.
Maybe the few that got a non-recalled R5 are the lucky ones now. There will no doubt be mods to enable 8K in 20 minute recording chunks with a 2 minute cool down now that we know the true internal temps.

Also Tilta.....think battery eliminators.....not coolers.     

"Math Class" on Baidu now has extensive infrared thermometer readings of the camera's mainboard with the back off, showing they correspond closely to the temperature reported in the EXIF data and don't rise above 64C. His next finding is that if you remove the internal battery it resets the so-called overheating limitations. So who is telling the truth now, Canon?
You can view the most recent findings here by the user "Math Class" (Google translated)
Read the full article on EOSHD:
https://www.eoshd.com/8k/removing-internal-battery-resets-eos-r5-overheat-timer-are-canons-pants-now-completely-down/

Yes. I agree. But let's be real. We are dealing with Canon here. I am 99.9999999% sure that will never happen.

I refuse to believe Connot would be THIS underhanded. I'm sure it really IS a true heat problem and NOT a software programmed timer. What programmer would do this in the office, go home at the end of the day and still be able to sleep at night? 
I think the problem is probably with your fridge. There is prolly something wrong with it. Can you test with a freezer instead?

I'd like to hear from Tilta as well as Canon.
If my fridge doesn't cool the camera externally what does their fan do differently?
Canon said officially: "Use an external fan to dissipate heat"
Well I used an external fridge to dissipate heat and it made no fucking difference.

What I find most troubling is Canon even saying in the official "media alert" that the housing mitigates the temps and helps cool the powerful chip, yet there is no attempt whatsoever to achieve good thermal conductivity between the main CPU and the casing, no thermal pad, and PCB blocking it.
So are they lying to us?
I don't know for sure what happens in the firmware, but that raises a lot of questions, but the slam dunk to me is the internal layout. What kind of mitigation is the magnesium alloy casing in a fridge, when the camera still throws the overheat warning after no mins recorded in 8K video mode?
It is none.
Here's what Canon said:
"Magnesium alloy was used in the body to dissipate heat away from internal components"
And here's their PR response from the UK team to me:
"I can confirm that we have shared your comments with Canon inc. in Tokyo and investigations are ongoing regarding the points you raise."
"As you are aware, the EOS R5 is a hybrid stills and video full-frame mirrorless camera and not a dedicated video camera. We have packed a lot of technology into a compact body design to increase the range of shooting possibilities for our customers."
"There are inevitably limitations with the compact body design of the EOS R5. A wide range of factors must be considered, and a balance found between its function as a stills camera and its video capabilities. This is why we continue to offer a full line-up of video cameras from entry level to high-end cinema to meet the different requirements of the different forms of video production."
Anyone notice the up-sell at the end?

Very good point, thanks.
So we have a range of Internal temp from 33C to 65C, with OVERHEATED! SHUTTING DOWN error at 33C but not at 65C.
And do we need to put it in the damn oven before we get a response from Canon?

What a mess Canon made. If they wanted to protect their cinema line, they should have just put a 5-min time limit on the 8k and 4khq modes instead of an overheat timer. That way it was at least usable as a b-cam. Now you have an unreliable piece of expensive junk you cannot trust at all.

The shut down relates to video mode. When you enter video mode, that's when the shutdown occurs. However, it only takes the 1 hour and 60 JPEGs in stills mode for the timer to shut down the camera with an OVERHEATED! message if you attempt to stay in video mode for more than a minute or so.
So basically, as a stills camera it is claiming dangerous temps that prevent any usage in 4K HQ / 8K video mode, even if these features haven't been used at all.
If this 'overheating' behaviour is to be believed. The fridge and 33C internal temp reported seems to suggest otherwise.

Canon really threw the kitchen sink at the EOS R5 specs sheet. What about the kitchen fridge?
Canon have stated overheating time limits for HQ video recording in a warm 23 °C room.
How does the camera perform in much colder conditions?
Does the EOS R5 still overheat in the Wifi menu in a fridge?
Or do the cold temperature help cool the camera body, which Canon claims act as mitigation for hot components inside?
Read the full article:
https://www.eoshd.com/news/canon-eos-r5-overheated-in-my-fridge-after-just-60-jpegs-4-c-ambient/

Yes. I agree. But let's be real. We are dealing with Canon here. I am 99.9999999% sure that will never happen.

I did something similar. I recorded 4k 24p HQ externally via the Atomos with no cards in for 35 mins or so. Then shut the camera and inserted the CfExpress card and tried to record in 4k120fps and see how much time I get. I only got 5 mins left in 4k 120!! So this tells me, using the ninja V is only good for recording 4k HQ 24 fps and after that the camera becomes useless for any high frame rate recording in 4k, let alone 8k. Got hit hard with the cripple hammer lol. 
 
 

It would definitely make a compelling documentary in the right hands - I'd be up for helping to fund it.

Why does it need 25 mins in the freezer to get back to baseline temp?
It defies logic.
You heat a metal baking tray to 60C and try putting it in the freezer! It's cold after a minute.
It may be that extreme temp changes do change the artificial timer. It's still fake though. Otherwise the camera would be ready to go again after a couple of mins in the freezer.
I have officially received permission from The Girlfriend for some time with the fridge later and some frozen peas.
But to be honest, writing is already on the wall as far as I'm concerned.
And Jesse did not tell us how long his measurements on all the parts and camera areas took after he stopped recording 8K. So the 25 mins isn't the total time of idle off-time and even if it is, it doesn't show that the timer isn't artificially locking us out from the camera for unnecessarily long periods.

Even if it turns out that the EXIF "camera temperature" has no relation to the temperature of the DIGIC X chip, the test results still confirm fake overheat timers. Why - let me explain:
1. CDA TEK's (BTM_PIX)'s app reads the temperature inhibitors. If the EXIF temp sensor is on a separate board and is not reading the CPU core temps, it would still increase if the CPU got hotter. The CPU is the primary heat source in the camera body and heats up the entire unit. We show that the temp inhibitors toggle on over time, even as the EXIF reported temp stays level at 46C or even decreases (as well as camera body external temps to the touch).
2. After powering off an electronic device or CPU, the part dissipates most of the 90C+ heat within seconds. If opening the card door, the chipset even then has a venting hole. Hot air escapes and dissipates quickly. When I switched off the camera for 1 hour and opened the card door, removed battery and lens, the temp inhibitors were left on even after 1 hour. It is impossible for the CPU to maintain 60C+ temps (33C above ambient temperature!) in this situation with no power.
3. The temp inhibitors flag ON even when the camera is not recording. They flag ON in the Wifi menu. ON in live-view. ON during stills shooting. If these processes are causing problematic temperatures for the CPU, it should shut the camera down in stills mode, but it doesn't... it can be left on.
Sure, but see my point 1 & 2 above.
A separate temp sensor would not stay at 46C if a main CPU at 90C started heating the body and internal air.
And heat distribution via air does not take 1 hour between a hot silicon chip and the ambient air right next to it and in/around the card slot.
The Chinese heat gun shows this not to be the case, but anyway, if the sensor is the limiting part that gets too hot, it would have to shut down during an 8K (45 megapixel) photo shoot at the same time it shuts down for 8K video.
Are you talking about consumer health & safety regulations regarding contact with hot surfaces?
Or stability and integrity internal materials?
This depends on the plastic. You can have plastic parts inside the camera that don't melt until 170C.
And as for metal....Well, even solder does not melt at 46C!
See?
The sensor readout isn't the heat limited part.
Nope.
The problem occurs even with an SD card, which can be used for unlimited 4K recording in other devices without issue.
They don't get very hot (as in 80C+), maybe 50C max.
You can read/write for hours on an SD card in a reader so it isn't about SD card safety regulations.
There are cameras like the S1H that write 6K or 4K at 400Mbit to SD cards. Higher data rates than EOS R5 4K HQ.
They don't get that hot though. I know, I've tried. This is just speculative on your part I'm afraid.
The Cfexpress card I have does get 'a bit warm like a cake'... but not scolding!
You can use it in a device that records 4K RAW for hours.
So I hardly think that there's anything about the comparatively low-bitrate 4K HQ 8bit H.264 (with CLOG disabled) on the EOS R5 that causes the Cfexpress card to heat up beyond the safety regulations.
Yes they can.
I agree. They owe us a full and frank explanation.
In my opinion lying to customers is not a good look!

This is truly amazing testing @Andrew Reid! I was honestly skeptical in the very, very beginning that Canon could possibly fake the camera overheating as a means to cripple it and protect the cinema line. But, wow. Using their own tools and measurements shows the damning truth. Your test results should be used as exhibits A-Z in a class action lawsuit. Truly sad that Canon thought they could pull this $hit.

I suspected Canon to cripple this camera somehow, someway but this artificial heat limit and recovery time is really out of line. Such arrogance!
But you know what? Canon may think they control the market but we have the power to control them by boycotting Canon. Especially nowadays with the camera industry bleeding as it is. Force Canon to stop this BS. How?
If you already purchased the camera, return it. If you have it on order, cancel it. Cancel all orders with Canon. Write letters to Canon showing your disgust. Call Canon and voice your disapproval. Fight Canon with your pocketbook. Stop the BS.

Andrew's point is still valid though : )
Thanks you two @Andrew Reid @BTM_Pix for your guts and service to filmmaking, keep going your focus and hard work :- )

Imagine that Canon boardroom meeting. 
"Let's create an 8K beast with little RS, RAW video, IBIS, our best auto focus ever... And then cripple it and use overheating to blame it!"
"You're a fucking genius, man. LET'S DO IT!" 

The temperature reported by the EXIF data more-or-less corresponds with the Chinese heat gun thermometer tests out there as well and it closely resembles the ambient temp of my room at the moment, I am sweltering in 30 degrees heat!
I suppose the easy test would be to cool the camera right down in a freezer, quickly take 1 shot then analyse that EXIF data.
It is very unlikely the camera is reporting wrong data in the EXIF. It is very basic to get right, even for Canon.

If there is indeed a hardware problem such as the LSI running too hot or certain parts of the chip not turning off when idle, then Canon may have originally developed this kind of temperature monitoring system to keep things in check.
But the fake element of it is that the actual temps my camera is reporting are nowhere near problematic and the recovery timer is completely out of whack with both ambient temps and the actual cool down temps of the electronics.
So it is likely they found a convenient outlet in the temp management system for a classic Cripple Hammer.
I want answers from Canon and I will be seeking them starting tomorrow.

At the weekend I bought the enigma that is the EOS R5 for myself. Foto-Meyer in Berlin were able to find me a rare unit. A huge thank you to them! What all EOS R5 owners have in common is that they have paid a lot of money for a professional video tool. We pay the money, we get to decide what happens next, and I'll be reaching out to Canon and making this clear. We need to ask them to work on a solution for overheating. It's worse than you can possibly imagine.
Just need to get something straight - my purchase is NOT an endorsement of the EOS R5. I bought it purely to cover the camera on EOSHD and to help work on fixes for the many issues this camera has. It is in no way a dependable tool for 8K, RAW, oversampled 4K, 4k 60p or 4K 120fps in the state that it's in. At the very maximum it is a pixel binned 4K 30p camera similar to the Sony A7R IV with the benefits of Canon's colour science, 10bit codec, top LCD and better ergonomics. Actually that doesn't sound so bad does it?! But this is not how it's sold to us - it is supposed to be a $4k all singing, all dancing, cutting edge 8K/4K video tool and that's how it should perform in the real world.
Read the full blog post:
https://www.eoshd.com/news/i-bought-a-canon-eos-r5-and-it-overheated-in-the-wifi-menu-also-a-look-at-potential-solutions/

EOSHD testing finds Canon EOS R5 overheating to be fake, with artificial timers deployed to lock out video mode. In this test, we will probe my Canon EOS R5’s actual internal temperature in Celsius, as reported by the firmware.
This week CDA-TEK and I are developing an Android app for the Canon EOS R5, which connects to the camera via the Canon API...
Please read the rest of the article on the blog carefully before commenting below