iamoui

So there is one thread bashing pro video cameras and celebrating David Lynch.
And one where we bash the use of a 5D because of moire...
Im confused.
And to be honest, I love cheap cameras and being creative with lowend gear. For sure..
..But every time Michael Mann cuts from the film camera to some DV-cam in Public Enemies it totally rips me out of the story and makes me very aware that Im watching something fake. 
He loved it and said it made the movie better.. imo it made it suck ass.
There are times when the creativity of a DSLR can help you. And times when you should go all in.
A good story can handle a little moire (Hurt Locker slowmo scenes) and a weak story (Public Enemies) need all the help it can get.
Imo.

I understand what you mean, your point and why you are upset. But to many still photographers the above line simply isn't true.

What they got is,
New 26.2-megapixel CMOS sensor DIGIC 7 image processor ISO 40,000 from 32,000 Dual Pixel autofocusing system 45 cross-type autofocus points at its disposal, a step up from the 6D’s paltry 11. 6.5 frames per second, but there’s a short runway there: the maximum burst is 21 frames for RAW photos, and 150 for JPEGs. Touchscreen Swivel Weather resistant Wi-Fi, NFC, Bluetooth, and GPS radios. And Canon’s done all this while only adding a few grams to the original weight of the 6D. I can name 5 pro photographers just among my closest friends that would choose a simple thing as weather sealing over 4K any day of the week.
This isn't the next video marvel. It never was. It never wanted to.
The 6D wasn't anything to write home about regarding video, so why would this?
Its like being upset about the lack of video features in a X100f or Leica M9.
Its not supposed to have that.

I could go on about how Canon base their decisions on what actually sells, what makes money and what still shooters actually want, what the 6Di was all about in the first place... but there is no point.
I might go bash a Sony thread about not being a DSLR or Instant film camera instead. Makes about as much sense

Hahaha oh my... I don't think deezid's choice on shadow levels is equivalent to "misspelled words and poor grammar". That's a bit much.

With regard to audio, I think the innovation has largely come from the music side of the fence rather than the broadcast/film side to be honest.
From that point of view, there have been numerous 5DMKii moments.
The Portastudio was one, the LinnDrum was another, the Akai S900 sampler, the Atari ST with Cubase, the ADAT digital multitrack, the Yamaha 02R mixing console and of course SoundTools as it was and ProTools as it became.
Arguably, these were all much bigger game changers than the 5DMKii, particularly the latter ones as they changed the entire industry at the high end as well as the low.
The 5DMKii let you make images that looked somewhat  like the movie studios could do, the audio products didn’t just allow you to produce audio that sounded like a real recording studio did but actually became the real recording studios.
The nature of broadcast and film is intrinsically more conservative.
I’ve been involved in product development for one company where it seemed inconceivable why the BBC, for example, would spend five times more for something that did less and then for another company where it seemed inconceivable to me why they would spend five times more on what we were proposing to them than they could on something similar they could get from a music store.
Some days you’re the statue, some days you’re the pigeon !
The problem with audio developments for music is that it plateaued and then became a race to the bottom price wise from which it will never return. It means that the innovation is now in the cost reduction and arguably why not because there really isn’t many more places for it to go in terms of functionality or quality. Which is good for us!
As all of this rapid development was going on in music technology, say between 1982-2000, it was like the wild west at times with companies coming from nowhere with bombshell products that either drove their competitors out of business or drove them on to greater heights.
And the vast majority of these companies were small ones (generally created by musicians who had to invent what it was the market didn’t have for them to buy), which made them lean and agile.
Over time though, the eating each other’s lunch routines often combined with little, no or reckless business practices (and ESPECIALLY poor cash flow from over ambitious product developments) left them vulnerable to being put out of business or, more usually, being bought out by the major manufacturers who were predominantly large Japanese companies. The likes of Oberheim (Yamaha), Linn (Akai), PPG (Korg) and Sequential Circuits (Yamaha again) all went that way and the innovation generally went no further for them once they were under the wing of those bigger manufacturers.  Eventually freed from their ‘consultancy’ deals, most have resurfaced as boutique operations serving an ever more niche market.
If I look at someone like Fairlight and my relationship with them as an example of what happened to an innovative company, its quite informative. I went from being an awestruck kid when they brought the CMI out, to then working for a manufacturer who basically drove them out of the sampler business they’d created, to eventually working on OEM development with them when they transitioned to broadcast. In the subsequent 20 years they’ve changed hands countless times and are now just a tab on a piece of free(ish) software. Its hard to grasp such a transition for me but for anyone who’s too young to know what the CMI was, its the equivalent of RED’s RAW pipeline ending up as a free download in the Sony PlayMemories store for your RX100.
Lexicon are exactly the same. From making jaw dropping almost other worldly products to being gobbled up by a company that was making most of its money off providing car stereos for GM etc and Lexicon was reduced over time to being included in every low end mixing console and software bundle that it could be licensed to. The company that bought them has done the same to every company its bought and I can’t even dignify them by mentioning their name even 20 years after them destroying the company I worked for !
So there’s just no incentive there for anyone to be innovative in music audio anymore as its littered with similar stories and the ones left standing wouldn’t see the amount of volume in broadcast/film that they need to press the button on the mass production runs they now need due to how cheap everything has to be now.
The company that COULD do it are the much maligned Behringer. 
If you look at something like the X Air XR12 digital mixing console and see what they can knock out for £239 retail (inc VAT!!) then it doesn’t take a genius to see what they could do against Sound Devices if they had the inclination but there just isn’t the market there. Because, believe me, they wouldn’t have blinked if there was.
So, unfortunately, I don’t think we’re going to get that 5DMarkii moment and the innovation such as it is will come from individuals themselves looking at products from the music side of the fence and modifying it themselves. Like getting that X Air XR12 and powering it from Sony NP batteries to make an extremely capable digital field mixer and recorder for £269 (including the £30 for the bits to do it) or being a smartarse and using cheap midi controllers to create remote focus and control systems for Panasonic cameras for under £75  (ahem!).
Because music audio had its numerous 5DMKii moments a few years ago there is a backlog of a ton of cheap stuff that flies under the radar for film makers that is waiting for them if they look for it. 
 

Great video deezid! This video is so good in so many ways that is surprising that the first thing that cross the mind of some ppl is that "the blacks are crushed". If thats the first thing that someone wants to say about this video its says more about "you" than the maker (or the piece). Even if i think that the blacks should be "less crushed" (wich i also do, but thats not the point) thats the last thing i think after i saw i video like this. But hey....thats me.

Shot on the GH5 in 3 days. A concept trailer done having a zero budget for our upcoming first feature film.
I really like what I can squeeze out of the internal 10 bit V-Log footage. DR, lowlight and colors are really good.
Everything was shot with sharpening and nr set to -5 and a Tiffen Black Pro Mist filter applied in front of the lens (12-35mm 2.8 V1, 20mm 1.7, 42.5mm 1.7) to make it smoother. Colorgrading done in Davinci Resolve. Drone shots by the DJI Mavic (the internal sharpening is hideous tbh...).
 

And how about ursa mini 4.6k as a POV camera? I tried it with sigma 8-16 and made this short test
 

The choice of "crushed" shadows (not really crushed, check waveform, but strong compression and pulled down to 0-3 IRE range) was an artistic one to achieve a very vibrant, dark and colorful look.
I honestly would love to work with a Varicam LT instead, or a GH5 with the Varicam sensor and processing, lol...
A bigger camera would limit me in many situations, but would be a great option for a way bigger budget (with assistance, another operator etc...).

3 times better wouldn't be the case, some images would profit (way better color science, better DR, better lowlight, no noisereduction nor sharpening etc...) others would be worse (this camera is just big and heavy and would therefore limit my work I guess).
I didn't have any worries about doing extreme colorgrading on the internal 10 bit GH5 footage, grades like butter without introducing any artifacts. The codec is just great and miles better than my GH4/V-Log experience tbh.

What a good analogy, I always enjoy the parallels between music and filmmaking / video.
They nearly always hold up.
I have rarely seen a higher-end shoot that didn't have a lot of complexity and setup, unnecessary in some cases. Overkill is common too, in pro video industry... guys doing interviews with an EPIC. What's all that about?
Are they doing lip sync at 240fps?

Haha.
This is exactly how I feel about my C500... It has sat on the shelf, mainly due to needing the beastly external recorder to get a decent picture out of it.
Workflow for my GH5 -
Hold it, press 1 button.
The end.
Workflow for my C500 -
Plug in SDI cable, make sure battery is charged for external monitor, turn on camera, turn on screen, wait quite a bit, oh you forgot the audio, silly me, grab an XLR mic, attach a module, attach the mic, check the levels, plugin headphones, dive into the menus a bit... And now my arm hurts, because it's all rather heavy. And what's that icon, oh dear my 256GB SSD just filled up in 5 minutes with 4K RAW at 120fps. Stop shooting, down tools, put the SSD into laptop, wait 30 mins for it to offload, wipe, reformat in the Odyssey, re-initialise, repeat every so often.
And with the FS5, the sheer amount of buttons really pissed me off as did the fact that when I took it on a shoot in public, people stared. Some of them robbers.
Indeed, the end result is so close, between even a RED and a £400 consumer camera these days, that just like in the audio world, the diminishing returns up-high just aren't often worth the hassle.

I remember a story many years ago when home studio recording first started to take a hold and Tom Robinson (ask your Dad, kids) was talking about why he'd got a new fangled (at the time) Tascam Portastudio to record his demos on. His reply has always stuck with me because he said that when a band reaches a certain level of success the first thing they do is get flight cases for their gear and cables that you could tie the QE2 to the quayside with. This all then has to go into storage. So when he felt like writing a song, he'd have to call a roadie, call a van hire place, get the roadie to go to the storage place to pick up the gear, book a rehearsal room (because the flight cases made it impractical to have in the house), drive to the rehearsal room, wait for the gear to be unpacked and plugged in and then he could start to jam and record ideas. At which point he'd forgotten what it was he wanted to do and had lost the energy to do it anyway. With the portastudio, he could just switch it on and get on with it.
I see a lot of parallels here too.
The only thing thats inspired me to pull the RED Epic out of its case since I got it back was to do the side by side to tune the GX80 profile.
It felt like having to go to the corner shop in a Sherman tank.
In my real day job I have to take the same 'get the big clunky stuff out' approach because there is an expectation to deliver a set standard both in terms of image quality but pretty much in terms of content too. Coverage is what its all about to be honest. And the demands of that type of efficiency directs you to a certain type of kit. All of which means I'm about as creative as the guy sitting next to me who has also got exactly the same sort of kit (with a 50/50 shot on the brand). Which means to say, not very creative. Or certainly not a massive differential in creativity. We're looking at the same scene and covering it with the same kit so inevitable we're going to be much of a muchness creatively. But the creativity can sometimes be forced upon you (by equipment failure usually!) so you have to do something with what you've got and that triggers the resourcefulness response that is so often at the root of creativity.
Being in a situation of "I can't make what I want" often makes you find better ways to make what you actually need.
After wrestling with the Epic and then putting the same lens on the GX80 and shooting the same thing, I was left (with a bit of twiddling) with these two test charts.
So, could I shoot this same scene with a camera that cost less than the media of the other one?
Yes.
Could the same be said the other way round about what I could shoot with the little camera?
Yes but not without calling the roadie and hiring the van and getting the flight cases and, well you get the point.
 

Where is the 8K? Skimming through it I don't see much content that goes above 4K, and the few that does seem to be exclusively timelapse.
The oversaturated greens and overall horrible colors did at lease give me a horrible viewing experience.
And did you notice the resolution of that train shot thrown in the first time? If not then there is probably a point that got proven or lesson learned.

All your lens are belong to us.

To clarify again - someone misstated that the Sigma 18-35mm doesn't have a filter thread. That's, of course, is worng. Of course it does - it takes 72mm threads and is the best lens IMO of any suggested here. 

Why couldn't you use a vND with the 18-35? It has a normal filter thread.

(IMO)
I cant believe we are still having this discussion.
Canon is the number one best selling camera company. They haven't forgotten to put in 4K. Nor made a non thinking decision. Or because of conservatism. Or any of the other hundreds of reasons we will see on forums across the world.

They have made the decision based on MONEY!
They have spent lots of time, research, endless meetings, focus groups, analyzed data, you know... all that stuff that people in forums have absolutely not done.
And based on their findings they have made a decision.

So far they have been right every single time. No matter what Panasony puts in their cameras Canon is still outselling them.
And if that wasn't enough. This is the 6D... its always been their sub 5D model... And its an awesome stills camera. Aimed at the people out there who actually buys cameras.. stills shooters.
Now if they would have put 4K video and IBIS in their 6D. Driven the cost to the same level or at least to close to the 5D. And scared of the biggest bulk of the camera buying target group, who actually quite often gets mad about having to pay for video features...
Well that would have been truly stupid.
But whats most supricing of all.
This happens every single time. They are not now nor ever going to release a stills camera that will wow the video crowd. So just let it go.
Its the same thing when all the whining about Blackmagic delays are rolling the interent. Even though its how they do it every single time.
 

So......
A bit of an update
I've spent the past few days redoing this from the ground up and there's been what you might call 'a bit' of progress.
The camera functions are now controlled by a gamepad, which gives a bit more scope in terms of buttons etc.
By separating out the part that does the actual talking to the camera, this means that that can be smaller for mounting and the choice of the input device is now far more flexible as it can support pretty much any USB device that can be attached to it.
In this version, the gamepad itself is wireless too so not only is it a lot neater but it can also be used to extend the overall distance of wireless control (its range to the control box is added to the range from the control box to the camera).
I can also make it support multiple devices so you could have something smaller just to do basic control (or a USB numeric keypad would be quite good for that actually) and then use a more elaborate one when needed. Or do both simultaneously if you want control of exposure and someone else to do focus etc.
Speaking of focus, this is now controlled by an analog stick so has a bit more feel to it (ignore the transitions in the video, the debug mode makes the control much coarser) with a press in the centre of the stick activating a one shot AF.  
If your camera has a powered zoom lens (hello LX100 etc) then this is controlled from the same stick by pushing forward and back. 
I believe that this will also work with those MFT lenses that support power zoom but I don't have one so I can't confirm that.
I've made a drivable AF joystick point mode which you activate by pressing in on the right hand analog stick and then using the D Pad to drive the focus point around the screen and then pressing in the stick again to action it.
There will be more focus enhancements coming.........
The shutter speed and aperture are now controlled by the shoulder buttons on the gamepad and the ISO is now also directly switchable on two buttons.
I've got a few more enhancements coming over the next few days as well so I'll keep you informed.
In the meantime, here is a video of it controlling a GX80
 

So as I've hinted more than a few times in the other thread, the discovery of the Cinelike D and other bits and pieces for the GX80 etc was actually a bit of a happy accident while I was trying to do understand the Panasonic wifi stuff for something else.
And here is that something else.
Well at least a prototype of it but it is fully functioning and will just be finessed a bit more.
Basically, its a wireless hardware remote for the G series cameras that operates over wifi and can currently control record start/stop, shutter speed as well as aperture and focus if you're using a native lens, including a single shot AF switch.
For the non-Cinelike D cameras that can now be hacked to have Cinelike D there is also a dedicated button to toggle it on and off so you don't need to mess about with browsers and computers or smartphones anymore.
Focus and aperture control are done on a joystick and everything else is switches.
I'll be putting a layer switch on so that it can be toggled back and forth to a different control mode for ISO, WB and other stuff.
As this is the prototype it is nowhere near the finished piece and it will be reduced in form factor to just be about the size of the control board. Power is by any USB source so there are billions of options.
There is a lot more finessing and feature enhancement to go on with regard to the focus control (and yes, I know exactly what you'll all want it to do !) but the hard part is done now.
It does support the display of the values on a screen and I'll be sorting some options out for that.
The purpose of this gadget is primarily for use with a gimbal but it can also be really useful on a tripod bar for anyone shooting live event stuff. For cameras with inbuilt lenses I'm going to add a zoom mode on the joystick.
A very quick very rough demo so you can see it in action.
Any lag you might see between me operating the controller and the camera video is just a sync issue between me throwing the two recordings on very quickly  
 
 

Also, keep in mind there are still a lot of question marks surrounding the EVA, including the most critical point: what does the footage look like? Kinda important, that. 
We have the broad strokes, as we did when the GH5 was announced, but once the final product is there to see, I could see some people changing their tune. 10-bit Varicam image quality to dual SD cards in a 2-pound body sounds VERY attractive to me. 
Announcing a "winner" in this product segment is premature, and ultimately kind of silly. The FS7 has sold well, as has the FS5, and that line still has benefits not shared by their competition (adaptable and well-supported mount, name recognition among producers, timecode, the ability to speed boost, high quality HFR, internal 10-bit, etc). The EVA will likely do great. The C200 is already #2 in cinema cameras on B&H.
There is no "best." Those days are over. There's only different.
This is the point I was refuting.
Mine are not 1 or 2 fringe use cases, but the kinds of situations I encounter all the time, spending day in day out shooting video for both money and pleasure. 
I never denied that the C200 was a powerful camera, or that the RAW was very exciting; in fact, I spent an entire paragraph of my first post in the topic praising Canon for including it.
My point was simply that the lack of a 10-bit codec hurts the viability of this camera for me and others like me. Believe me, I'm not the only one. Take a peek at DVX User.
The camera is already a smashing success, and it has a lot of points in its favor. If I were a different kind of shooter, I'd be all over it.
Side notes: 
-I wouldn't exactly call $7500 for the camera alone (plus media, power, etc) to be in the range of "low-budget filmmaking."
-If you buy used tungsten lights designed for filmmaking (dirt cheap on eBay now that LED is gaining steam), you can pin your gels to the barn doors where they won't "melt in 10 minutes." That's nuts! Your considerable talents would be better served focusing on your scene than finagling subpar lighting tools.
-By not buying CFast cards, you can make room in the budget to go up to that couple on the beach and slip them a twenty to relocate.

The documentary was destined for broadcast, and post wanted 10-bit for some compositing stuff with stock photos. XF-AVC isn't yet an option on the C200, so Raw would've been my only choice there. 
The actors weren't blindly improv-ing for 5-10 straight minutes. They started by working directly from the script, then the director would talk to them about the character and encourage them to change the words up for their comfort. Then the actors would add new lines and topics, and feel their way to a richer, more natural conversation. This meant the conversations had to play out in as long a take as possible, at least in the first angle, as otherwise the dialogue would suffer. Very cool working method, and we got some great stuff.
More to the point, I was hired on as the DP. You've never worked professionally, so this may be new to you, but I would never presume to tell my director how to work with his actors. I'd never work again. As the shooter, my place is to collaborate with the director and bring his vision to life. "You shouldn't work that way" or "I can't work like that because my camera..." etc are not options. 
Commercials and corporate work are generally for broadcast, meaning that I'd have to use RAW. Also, this was another instance where clients requested 10-bit 422. In addition, it had to be delivered to their post people for a relatively quick turnaround. If post called me and said "what the hell is this codec and how do I edit it?" and I answered with some shit about the Canon utility and how great it'll be once NLE support is widespread, guess who's never hiring me again?
We were not able to have electronics within a wide radius of the Tesla coil, as there was a risk of the field it creates frying anything nearby. Also, all available house power was going to lights and the robot, and we had a generator to handle the coil. There was nowhere to set up a DIT station, and we were shooting somewhere pretty of of the way, so no extra personnel for that either.
Plus, as you said, it wouldn't be ideal. We would've needed to bring down the robot arm, dismount the Faraday cage, change out the card, format, re-mount the cage, run the camera, then re-position the robot arm. And that would've taken 2-3 people to do quickly--people who were needed to reset the rest of the scene elements in a timely fashion. We were shooting night exterior, and we only had one day with the coil. There was no extra time to wrestle with media.
That's why I say this camera falls into no-man's-land. The 8-bit isn't good enough for me and many of my clients, and the RAW isn't practical for many shooting scenarios I encounter day to day. And the fact remains that I need enough media for a full day of shooting; it's an actual problem, not a straw man argument.
For you personally, shooting RAW all day with minimal media may be a viable option. For many of us, it is not. Implying that we are being disingenuous or lazy for pointing that out is reductive and misleading.

Shot with the Blackmagic MIcro Cinema Camera with the Angeniuex 12-120mm 16mm lens, a cameflex mount modified to micro 4/3rds.  For color, I brought into Da Vinci resolve and used Filmconvert with a Fuji Eterna film stock and softened it even more to Super16mm softness.  Added a tiny bit of grain and that gave me a great starting point to harken back to a more organic look.
 
I zoomed in digitally mostly around 20% - and it still was too sharp of an image.
Why not shoot it anamorphic instead?   Well, I am in love with documentaries of the 60s and 70s like Grey Gardens, etc. And they used this lens I think, and it has a certain feel to it that’s pretty beautiful. 
Let me know what you guys think of this.
 

@Dan Wake @webrunner5 @jonpais This is the final edit:
Not sure i get the best, but however, thank you guys for your help.

Yes, you just have to modify the html file so that when you hit 'Deploy' it takes you to B&H Website where you can then buy a GH5
 

I think there needs to be a demand for 1080p first. On a global scale pretty much no one watches anything above 720p.
1080p is for a selected few and 4K is almost not used.

3 isn't a great range scale for a rumour is it?
That only gets you from almost certainly true to could be true to no way is that true.
Or from Elvis is dead to Elvis is alive to Elvis is alive and spearheading an alien invasion of 9 foot cyborgs in rhinestone clad jumpsuits.
I might start a rumours site with a Spinal Tap scale where the rumours go up to 11.