Andrew Reid

I am sure that oversampling scan of the sensor, picking up every red, green makes higher frame rates harder on the C300 / C100. It is still a big oversight though. The FS700 down samples from a 4K sensor at 240fps! Have Canon lost the CMOS race?

Sensor size is not the issue, the lenses cover but it is impossible 100% due to distance of the mount from the sensor and the Micro Four Thirds optics are designed to be 20mm away. EF mount is 44mm so too long.

2.5K 12bit raw for $3000 or 4K 8bit MJPEG for $12,999? Canon sure know how to do a bargain :)

Great post sir. I mean how can any sensible person not believe that a raw codec contains more image info than a compressed 8bit one until they see a 'chart test'. It is just a way to undermine my knowledge that's all. If people read these debates hopefully they get some info out of it. There was a troll today I had to ban because he was simply adding nothing to the conversation. It was all about how I am anti-5D3, biased-this and that. Christ, put it in a PM and save the other user's time. I have no time for any of these arrogant craftsmen churning out job after job not really caring about the art of it and lashing out at the younger guys who they feel threatened by.

Sure I am all for a balanced view but these cameras aren't balanced or close in terms of the specs sheet. I come down so heavily in favour of the Blackmagic Cinema Camera because I dislike the image from the 5D Mark III and the limited video mode which Canon have had ample chance (and 3 years) to improve. The codec is noisy in the lows, the resolution is not at the GH2 benchmark for a DSLR, even after sharpening in post, the roll-off to highlights is not smooth, sometimes even looks harsher than the camera it replaced. The 5D and 7D lack a lot of what the Blackmagic has - raw, 12bit, 2.5k, HD-SDI, ProRes, cinema optimised sensor and touch screen user interface (shutter angle instead of shutter speed for example), proper focus assist, wide dynamic range, it is a long list. That isn't misinformation I'm afraid! Don't mistake this post for a review, I never labeled it as one. The real proof of the pudding will come in the review and I will dissect the image and the camera extensively then. I agree with you that the DSLR is better for your needs and that the BMD is new and relatively untested but that goes without saying as it has not been around as long. No single opinion suits everyone, indeed there's no advice however objective and scientific suits everyone all of the time. I concentrated on image quality in this article. When I come to handling, I still believe the DSLR has no real advantage over the BMCC and both need rigging for handheld work similarly. In fact you can argue that the BMCC doesn't need an monitor as it has one built in, with a proper focus assist. That is the fact. When I say I like that aspect, it is my opinion. People who mistake my opinions for facts should realise what a blog is. It isn't Wikipedia. It is a blog of my experience in the world of filmmaking tools, I call it how I see it and will continue to do so.

Ruben, I'm excited about the Blackmagic but to mistake this as fanboy-ism is to miss the point. Filmmaking is broad, for sure. But as Mark said so eloquently above, I have to focus for the sake of brevity in the articles - I have to let people take up their own position on what is applicable for their needs and what isn't. If I spoke for any other person other than myself, it wouldn't be right. You won't agree with everything I write here. But you are flat out wrong to suggest it is Blackmagic fanboyism. To say I have no basis to be excited about a raw camera at $3000 which shoots the kind of image I have seen for my own eyes on my 2.5k screen, is wrong. This article started with me thinking long and hard about what matters to me in terms of image quality. The camera is incredibly filmic. For every argument I've heard against the small sensor there are 5 in favour of the raw codec, 12bit colour, workflow, resolution and dynamic range. You need to rig up a DSLR for handheld work, it is no different with this. Shoot handheld with a 7D & no rig and it will look as jittery as shooting two handed with the Blackmagic and no proper grip. There's no extra cost involved with this camera above a DSLR. ProRes doesn't even necessitate any extra upgrading on the post side, a laptop is good enough. Raw can be transcoded or edited by proxy. It isn't LOG. It is like a sequence of raw stills. You don't need to apply grading if you don't find it practical to do so within time constraints. Raw allows for mistakes to be made in the heat of the moment too. Under or overexpose a 7D shot, and you are... Shot. I read all your posts on the forum Ruben. You have some valid points. A shame about the conclusion.

An automatic 1.5x crop mode. The lenses would fit as normal.

Again, replace the word inaccurate with 'not for you' and the word biased with 'what works for the majority, including me', and we will be getting somewhere. By the way, would you also like Mr Administrator to set up a free consultancy for ESPN polo shooters? Any good business premises as close as possible to your front door, let me know.

[quote name='Germy1979' timestamp='1346263607' post='16859'] C300 $16,000 ....... Scarlet X (raw) $16,000 C500 $30,000 ....... Red One MX $25,000 5Dmk3 $3500 ....... Blackmagic Cinema Cam. $3000 C100 $6-8000? .... Kineraw S35 $6300 I guess it's just loyalty at this point. [/quote] Unfortunately the industry isn't price sensitive and there's a lot of inertia. By price sensitive I mean that competition can undercut Canon all they like but for a lot of pros it is a non-issue. By inertia I mean industry can be stubborn. Look at how long it takes a company (even a small one) to update the operating system on office workstations, whilst teenagers seem to have no problem upgrading to Windows 7 for instance, the day it comes out. The C300 is risk free, proven, solid, all the boring things that makes it so wonderful as a filmmaking industry tool. It is also very well marketed, has huge established base of Canon EF lens users and ergonomically it is very well designed. Be glad if you are considering a Blackmagic, because you are thinking differently and when your short feature is shot in glorious 2.5k 12bit, it will look a damn sight better than stuff shot on a 7D for similar money. Jon Connor says it well. Canon have a knack for cynically carving up the market. And it is working for their bottom line. http://twitter.com/jonconnorfilms/status/240874774132318208 Though their risk averse and rather unadventurous business strategy is working, it shouldn't matter to the artist and to those who think outside the box now we have the alternatives for similar money to a DSLR - vote with your feet and forget what the industry chooses to use.

'Administrator' what a nice way to address someone. Again you have forgotten that the article wasn't written as free personal one to one consultancy for Ruben Fernandez and the specific needs of Ruben Fernandez. If my article is biased towards the needs of narrative filmmakers or people who just want better resolution and dynamic range, and a raw codec for $3000 then I'm fine with that. Yes I'm biased to it in that case, because that is what the camera offers. Or are you implying something else? The objective is more valuable when mixed with the subjective. Zacuto Shootout was about that too. Subjective real world views are to me far more relevant than charts and graphs. A GoPro camera is superior to an Alexa as a sports action camera mounted on a surfboard, that doesn't mean to say that I should weight that aspect in my article entitled Alexa vs GoPro as highly as dynamic range or raw codec if aiming the article at narrative filmmakers. First person to rig an Alexa to a surfboard gets a prize.

To suggest a bias, to me implies that I have an ulterior motive beyond shooting for prasing it. I don't. The shoot is everything. Specifically my shoot and my requirements for it. I like it because of how closely it resembles the look of film, for $3000. Again if you do too, you will find EOSHD useful in the coming months. I'm afraid you won't be finding any 7D weather proofing articles here. If you can get the same image quality from a 7D, or raw and 2.5k from a 5D, the article would have been very different. You don't like the article because I glossed over the weather proofing of the 7D and full frame look of the 5D Mark III. Actually I love the full frame look, I may still use my 5D Mark III for the odd close-up of a face.

Here we go again. Because you have different needs from a camera than I do, you claim my points are invalid and misinformation. How is that fair? I write from my own viewpoint on my own blog under the heading of my own perspective on cameras. If you don't like it, I am not going to change my entire shooting requirements to suit one upset reader. You see my position here? I also like Chinese takeaways. Is that misinformation? I like dogs instead of cats. Misinformation? You get the picture. If you agree with the oracle, then great. If not, please save me the misinformer tag. Now... Onto your post which thankfully contains a counter argument. This is rare! You say that only real material can tell us the true performance of the camera. Well you can't get much more real than John Brawley shooting in challenging natural light, and the camera did well. I am very excited about this camera since I have seen the Cinema DNG files on my 2.5K monitor. Until you see that, you are right to be skeptical. Vimeo 1080p or streaming doesn't look very nice, at all. I didn't address weather proofing in the article, because I often overlook that for my own needs. You are right to point it out as a requirement of yours, but I have to focus the blog on my own honest opinion and that means focussing on my own needs. Again if it matches your circumstances, great! I am all for the full frame look. Portraiture especially. It is daft to do a close up at 20mm on a crop sensor. This is why I shoot telephoto at 50-85mm on the GH2 so much. For my kind of work it is very useful and these lenses have almost zero distortion in the centre crop. The crop sensor on the Blackmagic will be extremely useful for this. On full frame I often find the long end compromised for the sake of a better look at wider angles. It should have had a crop mode like the GH2, or even the D800 with the DX crop mode. So as you said, you came on here purely to bash the article not the camera - that isn't fair - at least have an understanding of where I am coming from with my opinion - my uses for the camera. It would take a writer a lot better than I am to write something that everybody agrees with no matter what their use for the camera is. I am not going to speak for you and your ESPN polo shoots or being out on a boat with your 7D and weather proofing. I am a narrative filmmaker and music video director. I will however speak for me and people like me, and I don't think you should look down on that. I will allow you to speak as a counter point, that is what comments are for. But please have some god damn respect.

[quote name='vincegortho' timestamp='1346256215' post='16839'] So is it $8000 US, or is it $6279? [/quote] Press release price said $7999, the street price is likely to be closer $6500. Surprised B&H haven't put their pre-orders up yet. UK dealers seem to be first for a change.

[quote name='Zach' timestamp='1346255479' post='16836'] 4K is in the C500! [url="http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/product/cinema_eos/canon_eos_c500_and_c500_pl.do"]http://cpn.canon-eur..._and_c500_pl.do[/url] [/quote] $30,000 Explanation Mark!

[img]http://www.eoshd.com/uploads/wooden-cam-bmd.jpg[/img] Almost there, just need to fill in the hole in the middle :) Very impressed with the build of this Blackmagic Cinema Camera cage. It is by Wooden Camera if anyone is interested take a look here: [url="http://woodencamera.corecommerce.com"]http://woodencamera.corecommerce.com[/url] I'll be adding rails, shoulder mount and a handlebar to it for handheld stuff though. The Switronix power base I have also ordered will mount somewhere, but I haven't yet decided where. It is actually designed to go under the camera. As part of the Blackmagic Camera Coverage coming on EOSHD I am also working on preparing a possible shootout with some very skilled crew in Berlin between the Red Scarlet and Blackmagic in raw, and the FS100 & GH2 in the mix too. It will be very interesting to see where it fits in, as it is completely new prospect at $3000. I'll get in touch with ReWo soon as well to see what they have planned. Talented guys.

Indeed 4K add-on and universal mount and I am there. But they'd never undercut the C300 like that. Not for $8k. Not a chance in hell. And I don't blame them to be honest. C100 is going to sell brilliantly. FS700 has the legs on specs but not the mass market appeal and ergonomics.

"[i][color=#444444][font=sans-serif][size=3]Many may be taken aback with the idea of spending $7,999 on this camera at first. [/size][/font][/color][color=#008000][font=sans-serif][size=3]But if you stop to think about what you WON’T NEED TO BUY – it can actually start to look like a wise investment.[/size][/font][/color][color=#444444][font=sans-serif][size=3] This camera comes ready to shoot. The ergonomics are great so you don’t HAVE to have a cage. You don’t need to buy an external audio recorder and synching software – this has XLR inputs (and stereo headphone jack as well as levels) with the handle. You don’t necessarily need rods, a matte box, and Neutral density filters – ND filters are built in. That alone is a savings of $1,000-$4,000 in that type of setup alone (but you can of course choose to buy a good variable ND filter for a few hundred dollars as opposed to rods and matte boxes and rod support.) You don’t need to buy and EVF and a way to mount it to your HDSLR. Same goes for an LCD – although both the Canon LCD and EVF leave a lot to be desired when compared to the Zacuto EVF and external Marshall monitors."[/size][/font][/color][/i] This is a good point from Vincent. In many cases though, people moving up to the C100 already have these accessories. Do they sell them and get the C100, or do they keep the versatility and ability to pass the rig amongst several cameras? If for example an A99 came out and gave the most stunning full frame video possible, and all for $3000, it might make C100 owners feel a bit sick about putting all their eggs in that basket, and throwing some of their existing eggs in the bin. I'll tell you why I'm not yet ready to pre-order it... - Photokina is 1 month away. GH3, A99, NEX VG-90 - now that is some prospect - Blackmagic is likely better in good light, under ISO 800 and I love the film-like look of 12bit raw - EF mount on C100 is enough of a pain on the Blackmagic, I can't sell my FS100 for C100 and lose all that adaptability. Invested too much in mirrorless glass! (This won't apply to a lot of people) - The FS700 is 4K ready and I love the super slow mo stuff. Beautiful. It isn't a gimmick if used appropriately. - I have too many cameras as it is.

Well said JG. Perfectly positioned and set to fly as the C100 is, in some ways it just is not good enough or interesting or unique enough in 2012. It should have come out a year after the 5D Mark II. Don't look to actual manufacturing costs as any guide - the mark up on these cinema cameras and prices people are readily prepared to pay for them are hideous relative to actual unit costs, even when all the R&D is factored in. Canon are a business though and I would do the same in their shoes. I wish I could bang on some XLR jacks from Maplin, add an MPEG2 chipset from the XF and call it $15,000. But pros don't care do they? To them it is a bargain and all that matters is - can they make their investment back on one? To many the answer is a yes.

[quote name='jgharding' timestamp='1346247212' post='16808'] It's just so much bloody money! I love the 550D with Magic Lantern, cheap enough to own and chuck about, great for promo projects that only really have 720p delivery. I love the RX100 as a B-cam: sharp as anything, 50/60p, the same AVCHD rate as this and so well stabilised you can do away with tripod and just screw a handle into it. But the C100 will hire for about 100 quid a day I think, so though I'm sure I'll hire them occasionally (my favorite hire guy pre-ordered one today) I won't buy it myself. The BMD looks great as a buy though because my vanity projects are likely to be films, so I'll want quality rather than turnaround speed. It's nice to see things hotting up so much. [/quote] I hear you. It is a lot of money for me too, I don't need an FS100 AND a C100, AND a GH3, AND a BMD. It is getting silly. The investment is better off on the screen. Although the C100 is getting much warmer for me, and has addressed a heap of concerns I had about Canon recently, I cannot see myself selling my FS100 for it purely because of the lens mount and the fact I can use the Blackmagic for optimal resolution and workflow in good light. FS100 is my low light tool and for when S35 sensor size is important. BMD for when dynamic range, skin tones, resolution is key. C100 would be nicer than both to handle, and a lovely cam for sure but it cannot replace either of them until it has a universal mount and raw codec. That is asking a lot. FS100 and BMD both have better unique selling points for me personally. I know the majority might be better off with a C100 for commercial work though. It is going to FLY off the shelves because it is well priced and very practical. Not quite exciting enough in the specs department though. No 240fps, no raw, no 12bit colour, no full frame. Sony and Blackmagic have all that covered under $8k.

[quote name='Philip Lipetz' timestamp='1346247420' post='16809'] Why choose over BMCC? To avoid costs of SSDs, graphic cards for post, rig, monitor, audio xlr rig, and HUGE storge costs. The BMCC has ver very limited low light and is not suited for event or doc work, and that is according to them. Also, the C100 has XLRs I handle, allowing for a much more compact setup than a c300. Have to see of color banding is an issue with the AVCHD codec. [/quote] It is hard to tell so early especially without having shot with both cameras but I speculate that the BMD will have quite the edge on image quality in good light. I am able to get more out of the highs and lows of the sample cinema DNG raw files than I am out of my OM-D E-M5 raw stills. For a $3k video camera this is new territory and if anything it is almost Alexa territory. I only have doubts about the sensor size and low light. Handling maybe. We'll see. Wooden Camera cage is superb. The BMD's large screen is nice to have too, saves having the bulk of a monitor for a lot of stuff. Should get my final retail unit next week. For sure the C100 has a more 'practical' form factor. I prefer the way it looks, and having handled the C300 I don't doubt it will be superb for handheld work with minimal rigging.

[quote name='riccardocovino' timestamp='1346242292' post='16794']But in terms of specs the comparison with the FS700 is embarassing: for the same price we have 240fps, 4k-capable body and universal mount.[/quote] Although the FS700 + 4K will likely be double what a C100 costs, it is certainly a massive factor. The universal mount too, massive factor for me. Not for everyone but I need that LOMO, PL, Canon FD, Leica M lens mount and I already have full EF support with the Metabones adapter on FS100. I'd be clicking 'pre-order' today on C100 if it had an EOS M mount instead of EF.

Yes Micro Four Thirds mount, 110% sure. Otherwise it would not be a GH3. It would be separate line of products altogether. The lenses are important - more margin on those, and the camera body helps shift them. No body, no lens sales.

Some quotes I picked up from Laforet's blog today. Nice guy. But not sure I agree with him. "[color=#444444][font=sans-serif][size=3]If this camera is available in the $6-7K range on the street one day – it could really question the need to shoot on HDSLRs anymore"[/size][/font][/color] Why didn't he say this about the Sony FS100? That has been out on the shelves, well under $6k for over a year now and still we have a lot of DSLR shooters. True the C100 has a more DSLR form factor, but the FS100 is also very compact and modular for a video camera. The ergonomics are not as sleek, but I rarely have issues with handling it. The image is in my opinion 90% as good as the C300 especially via uncompressed HDMI, for a fraction of the price. I got mine $4200 used. The internal codec is superb given the low bitrate. [color=#444444][font=sans-serif][size=3]"I think this camera will likely put a noticeable dent in the use of mid- to upper- range HDSLRs for video production such as the Canon 5D MKIII and Canon EOS 1DX given that the C100 meets a lot of the ergonomic needs of filmmakers that HDSLRS lack (EVF, LCD, Built in ND)"[/size][/font][/color] Well the 5D mark III and 1DX don't help themselves - that's true, but they lack MUCH MORE than just built in NDs. It isn't about the EVF, LCD or NDs. What Vincent seems to be implying here is that Canon gave up on DSLR video, putting all their eggs into the Cinema EOS basket. Well I certainly agree with that. Their mirrorless doesn't even have an EVF, their 1D X doesn't have peaking, someone conservative high up chose not to push and innovate. So whilst the 5D Mark III is dead for video, a Sony A99 or full frame camera with all that innovation (and yes - peaking even!) will be alive and kicking vs the smaller chip C100. The full frame still holds an appeal for many over Super 35mm. Bloom especially seems to like that large sensor aesthetic a lot, even vs the C300 which he uses a hell of a lot. Indeed, Vincent came from a stills background and I am surprised he doesn't mention the stills functionality of these cameras - in the case of the 1D X it is world leading for that. Video production more and more relies on stills functionality - timelapse, BTS, poster images, video journalism, mixed media, news reportage, freelancer offering both stills and video on small budget, the list goes on. Convergence is still going to happen even if it has taken a backseat for now. As for video pros - well in my opinion DSLRs have been out of the spotlight of many pros since the first large chip video cameras came along so I don't think we'll be seeing much of a change here. However, and I can only gauge my own view of interest in DSLR video here - the visitor numbers to EOSHD have doubled in the last 6 months, and were already high before that. So interest in DSLR video has never been higher, with more choice out there on the shelves. The future isn't murky for these cameras, in fact it is very promising. Not so much in the Canon camp, but others are (and will) innovate. With the extra horsepower to fix scaling, oversampling from 20MP+ to 2K or 4K is always going to look better than a native 2K or 4K sensor. That is one advantage of a photographic sensor. If you oversample dedicated R, G and B photosites like the C300 does from 4K to 1080p for example, you get as close to true 1080p as it is possible to get. A DSLR could do video like that in the very near future. The pixel design of CMOS sensors goes forward very quickly in the consumer market. Some of the biggest R&D projects go into consumer hardware before it goes into pro stuff. The other innovation is uncompressed HDMI - or a direct sensor tap. Raw over an HD output on a DSLR is a distinct possibility. 4K too, because of pent up consumer demand for 4K displays - TVs - the PS4 as well are all on the way. 4K on consumer cameras is the future and inevitable. So DSLRs will move up with the rest of them. I don't see a murky future at all. Just more choices for more affordable C100-style offerings. Good for us. Here's what Vincent says in full [url="http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2012/08/29/canon-c100-leads-to-murky-future-for-mid-to-upper-range-video-hdslrs"]http://blog.vincentl...ge-video-hdslrs[/url]

If you notice design of ND filter switch, they have still 'cut the cloth' differently to the more expensive camera but they have done so in such a nice way I don't really mind. Build remains solid. Magnesium alloy not plastic chassis. To have the articulated screen on the back as well as 15% smaller body is great. If the image stands up I'll prefer it to the FS100. But Vs a FS700 a tougher choice. What Sony need to do is make their full frame cameras as good as possible, no funny business, then copy Canon's form factor and make a 4K camera for $10k.

Comes with C LOG. They didn't take a lot out. They need to compete with Sony. Overall image quality still a question-mark though. MPEG on C300 had a very fine grain and film like texture. AVCHD is good but tends to be smoother and more compressed looking.