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Could this be the perfect sensor for the Blackmagic Cinema Camera Mark II?

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Posted

[url="http://www.eoshd.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/cmosis-CMV-12000.jpg"][img]http://www.eoshd.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/cmosis-CMV-12000.jpg[/img][/url]

Above is a new scientific sensor by European company CMOSIS which has amazing potential in a cinema camera.
[list=1]

[*]Super 35mm / APS-C sized

[*]4K raw at 12bit (90fps) and 10bit (150fps)

[*]4:3 anamorphic 4,096 x 3,072

[*]Global shutter
[/list]
This part is ready to be mass produced and is available off the shelf.

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Posted

I hope they are reading this!!

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Posted

Pretty please!!

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Blackmagic have already stated publicly that they don't have the capacity to develop two cameras at the same time. As they are still ironing out a few kinks in the first version, I doubt they will start thinking about version two until next year. But it doesn't have to be Blackmagic who uses this chip. After the Cinema camera's announcement there were surely a lot of other companies thinking, "why didn't we do that?"

There is Convergent Design, Atomos, and AJA who all make hardware recorders - basically a camera without a sensor. They clearly all have the right expertise in high-speed signal processing. There is also Matrox, who don't make a recorder, but have a large range of video encoding hardware. Perhaps there is also another rich enthusiast like Jim Jannard, who realises that the parts you need to build a high-end video camera are largely commoditised and are available to order right now. All you need is to put them together in a box with a lens mount.

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Oooooh this is exciting. We're starting to turn that corner already, If this comes into fruition and Black Magic does pick this up, RED market might be the next target from them. But then again we dont know the price of this sensor or even if Black Magic will jump in, hope they are looking at this though. Im sure the big guys are already looking into this right now, for our sake lets hope it stays within the under 10K market to be able to get this thing running fully without having to need all sorts of components to get this running.

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Posted

[quote name='TC' timestamp='1353458535' post='22027']There is Convergent Design, Atomos, and AJA who all make hardware recorders - basically a camera without a sensor. They clearly all have the right expertise in high-speed signal processing. There is also Matrox, who don't make a recorder, but have a large range of video encoding hardware. Perhaps there is also another rich enthusiast like Jim Jannard, who realises that the parts you need to build a high-end video camera are largely commoditised and are available to order right now. All you need is to put them together in a box with a lens mount.
[/quote]

Very good point. If there is to be a challenge to the status quo it will be from exactly these kind of people.

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Posted

Actually, the dynamic ranges will probably be somewhat less than the 60-dB and 90-dB figures indicate. Additionally, the 90-fps (12 bits) and 150-fps (10 bits) rates are half those originally specced for the CMV12000 about 2 years ago. The throughput of the sensor has apparently been cut in half.

The Apertus Axiom will reportedly use this sensor.

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Posted

You noticed this. Maybe Leica will come out with a 4K video camera? BMC could surprise. Or a rogue company? Let's make our own? How about GoPro?

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Posted

[size=6][url="http://apertus.org/en/axiom"]http://apertus.org/en/axiom[/url][/size]

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Posted

Or perhaps Kineraw???

Or

[size=5][b]Couldn't [u]BMC take over apertus[/u], and fast track a 4k camera???[/b][/size] Don't be surprised.

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Posted

Enjoy.
[url="https://vimeo.com/17230822"]https://vimeo.com/17230822[/url]

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[quote][color=#333333][font=Helvetica, Arial, FreeSans, sans-serif][size=3]CMOSIS, who are supplying Leica their cutting edge full frame sensor in the new M rangefinder ([/size][/font][/color][url="http://www.cmosis.com/products/standard_products/cmv20000"]I suspect it is this chip, the CMV20000[/url][color=#333333][font=Helvetica, Arial, FreeSans, sans-serif][size=3]) say the sensor is currently sampling.[/size][/font][/color][/quote]
It couldn't be that one because as stated here:
http://www.eoshd.com/content/9060/the-new-leica-m-as-a-filmmakers-tool-an-interview-with-leicas-jesko-von-oeynhausen
The sensor in the new M is a CCD.

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Posted

Knowing nothing about camera engineering, I ask: would it be IMpossible to put this sensor into a current BMC?

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Posted

[quote name='galenb' timestamp='1353471122' post='22039']
It couldn't be that one because as stated here:
[url="http://www.eoshd.com/content/9060/the-new-leica-m-as-a-filmmakers-tool-an-interview-with-leicas-jesko-von-oeynhausen"]http://www.eoshd.com...-von-oeynhausen[/url]
The sensor in the new M is a CCD.
[/quote]

It isn't a CCD. It is a CMOS. Interview clearly states that in first half. Are there any typos you are spotting?

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Posted

Ahhh. No, that was a typo in my head. Sorry. I must have transposed CCD and CMOS in that interview.

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Posted

Whatever camera this is in wouldn't even need any capture API. Just the ability to feed hd-sdi/hdmi. It could just be a simple camera head. No internal power even. Put a 1/4-20 on the bottom, a lens mount on front, and uncompressed hd out the back. Would save gobs and gobs of development money. And bring the retail price way down. You could even do away with most physical controls and simply use a smart phone for that (a bit extreme, i know) There is no reason a camera needs to be responsible for anything but the feed anymore. Everything else can be modular. Anyone remember the silicon imaging s3? Or even the Alexa m or mobile or whatever?

Imagine how cheap a camera with no power solution, no recorder, no screen, practically no housing, could be. Let people part that stuff out to the specifications they need/want. Most do anyways. (Meaning they already have the hardware required to run a rig like this.

I'm very excited to see what the axiom campaign will look like and what kind of numbers they will need to pull to make it happen.

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Posted

bmc sensor is much better than CMV12000...
it uses same Dual Gain Architecture technology as arri alexa sensor (http://www.arri.com/camera/digital_cameras/technology/arri_imaging_technology/alexas_sensor.html ) and even in global shutter mode beats CMV12000 in DR ...
http://www.cmosis.com/products/standard_products/cmv12000
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:JRC73fiWFzcJ:www.pco.de/fileadmin/user_upload/db/products/datasheet/BR_pco_edge_104.pdf+&hl=en&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgqsjYmQdEfJnoyMTl-pLFu3dKvun56_EcxuZ26yKeCXVA_mrLsmbWGHlQXmTkPnm4HC-en85D5DN0U045fTm6tmDi1PTqR_yAKkLtZPKbJ7ezi31BbiZPu5r-wmIKMt59Db8lV&sig=AHIEtbQmi1jpDhZfnqPfcHpGpQFhB6bgnQ

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Posted

nerds. lol

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Ignorance ...
lol

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Posted

[quote name='FilmMan' timestamp='1353468369' post='22036']
Or perhaps Kineraw???
[/quote]

The KineRAW S35 already sports a 4K sensor but currently records at a maximum of 2K.

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Posted

Got a reply back from the nice people at CMOSIS.


[color=#000000][font=Helvetica][size=3]"As you can read in the our press release is the CMV12000 mainly targeting industrial vision alike application. This is mainly due to the presence of the global shutter architecture which is a requirement when capturing moving objects (like in production lines, traffic cameras…). The sensor has a global shutter only, not a rolling shutter. There's indeed an image quality trade-off when choosing for global shutter and this is mostly a penalty in dark noise and dynamic range compared to rolling shutter only sensors. [/size][/font][/color]

[color=#000000][font=Helvetica][size=3]However we see indeed that a lot of interest is coming from the broadcast industry as well because of it's resolution and reasonable pricing. I would rather not provide the full price list but can tell that the sensor sells for less than $1700. The exact reasons why the CMV12000 is so attractive is probably because there are not tot much alternatives but I guess that people like Blackmagic Cinema Camera can probably elaborate more on this."[/size][/font][/color]

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Posted

@cameraboy Nice links. Yes, looks like the Blackmagic sensor really does have superb dynamic range, presumably due to the dual gain readout, as in Arri's sensor. It's almost like a HDR mode built into the sensor - applying high gain for the shadows and low gain for the highlights, then recombine in the digital output.

@Andrew Great that you contacted CMOSIS. I hope they are watching the camera industry closely and working on sensors aimed less at scientific applications and more at cameras.

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Posted

[quote name='cameraboy' timestamp='1353496557' post='22058']
bmc sensor is much better than CMV12000...
it uses same Dual Gain Architecture technology as arri alexa sensor ([url="http://www.arri.com/camera/digital_cameras/technology/arri_imaging_technology/alexas_sensor.html"]http://www.arri.com/...xas_sensor.html[/url] ) and even in global shutter mode beats CMV12000 in DR ...
[url="http://www.cmosis.com/products/standard_products/cmv12000"]http://www.cmosis.co...oducts/cmv12000[/url]
[url="https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:JRC73fiWFzcJ:www.pco.de/fileadmin/user_upload/db/products/datasheet/BR_pco_edge_104.pdf+&hl=en&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgqsjYmQdEfJnoyMTl-pLFu3dKvun56_EcxuZ26yKeCXVA_mrLsmbWGHlQXmTkPnm4HC-en85D5DN0U045fTm6tmDi1PTqR_yAKkLtZPKbJ7ezi31BbiZPu5r-wmIKMt59Db8lV&sig=AHIEtbQmi1jpDhZfnqPfcHpGpQFhB6bgnQ"]https://docs.google....fcHpGpQFhB6bgnQ[/url]
[/quote]

Interesting stuff about dual gain architecture (DGA). The Blackmagic Cinema Camera's scientific sensor shares this - how do we know? They should put it on the marketing material, that is a big thing. No wonder the highlights are so good.

I think the industrial sensor industry has so much to offer cinema.

Their main market is scientific because that is where the money is. Cinema cameras would be a smaller niche but they wouldn't stay niche for long with image quality and pricing like this.

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Posted

now we can be 100 percent sure that BMCC use fairchild CIS 2051 ( only sensor in the market with BMC sensor spec) ...
http://www.andor.com/learning-academy/dual-amplifier-dynamic-range-scmos-dynamic-range

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[quote name='EOSHD' timestamp='1353503861' post='22065']
Got a reply back from the nice people at CMOSIS.


[color=#000000][font=Helvetica][size=3]"As you can read in the our press release is the CMV12000 mainly targeting industrial vision alike application. This is mainly due to the presence of the global shutter architecture which is a requirement when capturing moving objects (like in production lines, traffic cameras…). The sensor has a global shutter only, not a rolling shutter. There's indeed an image quality trade-off when choosing for global shutter and this is mostly a penalty in dark noise and dynamic range compared to rolling shutter only sensors. [/size][/font][/color]

[color=#000000][font=Helvetica][size=3]However we see indeed that a lot of interest is coming from the broadcast industry as well because of it's resolution and reasonable pricing. I would rather not provide the full price list but can tell that the sensor sells for less than $1700. The exact reasons why the CMV12000 is so attractive is probably because there are not tot much alternatives but I guess that people like Blackmagic Cinema Camera can probably elaborate more on this."[/size][/font][/color]
[/quote]
[b]Less than $1700 for the sensor. [/b]

[b]As some fluff talk:[/b]

[b] Let's say the CMV12000 could be had in quantity for $1200. Maybe less? And other parts for a camera cost $1200. $2400 for a 4K camera? [/b] Retail for $5000?

The interesting thing, is the Hero3. Probably costs to sellers, $240 to $280. Then retails for the $400. Perhaps GoPro could put together a 4K interchangeable video camera for sub $2000? Only speculating.

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