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2k raw or prores 4k?


Oren
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File format for a short narrative film:  

11 members have voted

  1. 1. 2k Raw or 4k Prores?

    • 2k Raw
      6
    • 4k Prores
      5


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Hey all,
I'm the DP of a short narrative film that is to be shot in about one month,
I'll probably shoot using sony FS700+odyssey7q and a set of zeiss CP.2 (there might be an option for sony F55, but then I won't be able to use the e-mount lenses),
I need to decide if I want to shoot 2k raw or 4k prores (can't shoot 4k raw due to storage shortage).
Plus, haven't decided yet if I should shoot 1.85 or 2.35 aspect ratio,

any thoughts?

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Have you thought about shooting 4K prores, but using very occasional 4K raw when you absolutely need every drop of DR?

If you have time to edit raw though... I would shoot 2K/raw. I know all the hype is about 4K, but DR and color are still more important, imo and the 2K on FS700/O7Q is a joy, though you do hit some moire/aliasing at 120/240fps

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I'd be worried if you were my DP............

 

Also the Director will tell you what aspect and settings the film should be in, you as a DP should only give suggestion and explain why if it differs. Without knowing anything about the film I would shoot 4k ProRes and any scenes that you need the extra Dynamic Range I would shoot in 2/4K Raw. Hard Drives are cheap, VERY CHEAP so make sure that's factored into the budget of the film. You don't want media to be a reason to slow you down, even if shooting on a low budget....

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I'd be worried if you were my DP............

 

Also the Director will tell you what aspect and settings the film should be in, you as a DP should only give suggestion and explain why if it differs. Without knowing anything about the film I would shoot 4k ProRes and any scenes that you need the extra Dynamic Range I would shoot in 2/4K Raw. Hard Drives are cheap, VERY CHEAP so make sure that's factored into the budget of the film. You don't want media to be a reason to slow you down, even if shooting on a low budget....

I interpret this post as a bit harsh, but maybe that's not your intension. I just like to think of EOSHD as a safe place to explore questions.

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I'd be worried if you were my DP.............

I interpret this post as a bit harsh, but maybe that's not your intension. I just like to think of EOSHD as a safe place to explore questions.

​it was harsh and much of his advice wasn't terribly helpful anyways (but he's right about media... it's dirt cheap especially if you're considering shooting on an f55, you can afford hard drives). do you need to master at 4k for distribution purposes? what type of shoot is it? int, ext, etc? lot's of factors could go into what I would choose. Jimmy probably had the closest advice to how I feel about shooting, so +1 for that.

as for the aspect ratio, i always feel that 2.35:1 is much more cinematic, and certainly adds a lot to a productions feel especially if you're already working on a limited budget.

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I'd be worried if you were my DP............

 

Also the Director will tell you what aspect and settings the film should be in, you as a DP should only give suggestion and explain why if it differs. Without knowing anything about the film I would shoot 4k ProRes and any scenes that you need the extra Dynamic Range I would shoot in 2/4K Raw. Hard Drives are cheap, VERY CHEAP so make sure that's factored into the budget of the film. You don't want media to be a reason to slow you down, even if shooting on a low budget....

​Then good thing I'm not your DP.
I'm pretty confident in my skills, so thank you, I don't need your opinion about that - especially without you seeing any of my work.
The film is a graduate film in film school, and I've shot a few already.

I asked about aspect ratio just because there isn't a lot of awareness here to that subject. Most of the cinematheque's screens here are 1.85. We hope the film will be screened in festivals around the world as well though, and I'm wondering what's the best format for it. My main problem with 2.35 is the major crop it gets if we broadcast the movie on T.V.
Regarding the F55, we might be able to lend it for free, I wouldn't rent an F55 if I don't have the budget for HDDs.

I'm in the process of checking if I need a master in 4k, for the meanwhile the main benefit is the extra detail.

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​it was harsh and much of his advice wasn't terribly helpful anyways (but he's right about media... it's dirt cheap especially if you're considering shooting on an f55, you can afford hard drives). do you need to master at 4k for distribution purposes? what type of shoot is it? int, ext, etc? lot's of factors could go into what I would choose. Jimmy probably had the closest advice to how I feel about shooting, so +1 for that.

as for the aspect ratio, i always feel that 2.35:1 is much more cinematic, and certainly adds a lot to a productions feel especially if you're already working on a limited budget.

​Most of the film is int, that's why I'm leaning towards 4k prores. I have two short ext scenes, one day and one night.

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If you're going to have a color grading wizard, then the 2k RAW has the potential to get more stunning results than the extra detail of 4k ProRes. If you have an average or inexperienced colorist, it might end up worse off, since raw can be a beast to work with. 

I don't know your situation, but if you're in film school getting an F55 for free then I think it's worth it to to really press the school (or whoever) to get the extra HDs you need to shoot 4k RAW. Or rent them?

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Guest Ebrahim Saadawi

Raw (not debayered) is overrated, 10bit 4:2:2 ProRes is just about more than enough for everything, if you're in that minority where it's not enough, you wouldn't be asking the question. A good ProRes Codec can be pushed anywhere, especially when in 4K. 

I would bet all of your audience will be more impressed with a 4K buzzword rather than "I shot uncompressed and did my debayering in post" 

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No audience will be impressed with 4K if they don't have a screen to consume 4K on. I'd choose an extra stop DR over 4K every day. The audience might not be impressed by you saying you shot raw, but they will have a sensation that it is better if they do watch it. They wont know why, but they will. Extra resolution can do that too, but not as much, if you are already shooting pristine 2K.

That said, with the FS700/OQ7, you can shoot a great image in 4K ProRes... You loose about a stop. Should be fine for most shots.

Like I said at the start, shoot ProRes for anything that only demands about 12 stops... If your lightmeter or exposure tools show a bit more of an extreme... switch to raw.

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At which point 12-bit ProRes 444 is available, the only advantage of RAW would be more detail/less artifacts (where RAW is 12-bits as with the FS700). At 4K the slight detail advantage for RAW is moot unless delivering and viewing in 4K. 2K RAW is significantly softer than 4K downsampled to 2K.

2K RAW makes sense for continuous 240fps slomo. Are there tests showing 12-bit RAW providing more DR than 10-bit ProRes with Log encoding? Otherwise, if 4K isn't needed, consider the 4K to HD ProRes option.

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Yes - 2K RAW on the Odyssey 7Q is best suited to slow motion, where it's the only option.  You'll get a fair bit of aliasing and some softness - the mode wasn't really designed for normal capture, and sensor read out in 2K RAW mode simply isn't tuned for high detail capture.  4K RAW, on the other hand, is largely excellent.  For short scenes where maximum DR is critical, 4K RAW is by far the best format.  For everything else, aside from slow motion, you're likely better off exposing properly, and capturing in ProRes.  Of course, be aware RAW files can be a bit of a pain to work with.

In ProRes mode, you can do full 4K, or the 4K2HD mode, which debayers and down samples the 4K RAW signal on the fly, producing a considerably sharper image than the 2K output.  If space is a premium, I'd recommend this mode.  Otherwise, I recommend shooting in a mix of 4K ProRes, plus 4K RAW for scenes requiring extreme DR.  You can use the 4K capture to create a 4K deliverable or, crop/re-frame/stabilize, then down sample to 1080p.

Note that even if you shoot RAW, you'll still need to be very careful of exposure - the 7Q can show quite a bit of noise with SLOG2, so shooting in RAW doesn't mean you don't have to carefully light things.  The FSRAW signal also bakes in a few details, so you'll still to properly white balance, just as you would with ProRes.

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