webrunner5 Posted January 1, 2022 Share Posted January 1, 2022 If you think a RX0 II is an action cam well..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emanuel Posted January 1, 2022 Share Posted January 1, 2022 That's true : ) Because she's lovely, this doesn't mean she cannot be a good housekeeper too... or vice versa : D but as you say Don, well, what does our experience know? ;- ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webrunner5 Posted January 1, 2022 Share Posted January 1, 2022 Well I can't say you are going to use it solo to be a Wedding photographer etc. but the color science is suppose to be based off of the Sony A7r III and the sensor is either the same as the RX100 mk V or mk VI. I can tell you from experience it is damn close to having a A7 mk III in your pocket. The fixed lens, fixed aperture is stupid sharp, Weakest point is any really good stabilization. It has electronic but meh. But this thing has all the same crazy menu things as the big boy Sony's have. So it is not some toy trust me. I can think of a worse fixed lens to have that is for sure. I remember having a 28mm f2.8 welded to my Leica M3 for years and years and years. and probably left it at f4.0, f5.6 most of it's life. So hardly a burden. Not counting it is stupid small, it makes a GoPro look like a BMPCC 4K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emanuel Posted January 2, 2022 Share Posted January 2, 2022 11 hours ago, webrunner5 said: Not counting it is stupid small, it makes a GoPro look like a BMPCC 4K. LOL Nothing better than starting the year to read your posts ;- ) webrunner5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trek of Joy Posted January 2, 2022 Share Posted January 2, 2022 21 hours ago, webrunner5 said: If you think a RX0 II is an action cam well..... Instead of arguing silly semantics, just take a minute to actually read the OP's criteria. Call it whatever you want, a vlogging camera, a cinema camera, a video camera or whatever, I don't care. That still makes no difference. Its clearly not what he's looking for. cheers chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webrunner5 Posted January 2, 2022 Share Posted January 2, 2022 If you are talented, you can make Anything work. Hell he is not doing Netflix stuff. The DoF on a 24mm f4 lens on a 1" sensor is a mile wide. Just what he needs. The real question he was looking for was a cheap 10bit 4k camera. I told him, a RX0 Mk II. Your suggestion seems even more silly, Cinetone, yeah right. And then on a used $1500 camera that doesn't even do 10 bit. That ought to work out well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trek of Joy Posted January 2, 2022 Share Posted January 2, 2022 1 hour ago, webrunner5 said: If you are talented, you can make Anything work. Hell he is not doing Netflix stuff. The DoF on a 24mm f4 lens on a 1" sensor is a mile wide. Just what he needs. The real question he was looking for was a cheap 10bit 4k camera. I told him, a RX0 Mk II. Your suggestion seems even more silly, Cinetone, yeah right. And then on a used $1500 camera that doesn't even do 10 bit. That ought to work out well. Again man, just read what the OP wants and stop focusing on me. The RX0 clearly isn't it because he wants shallower DOF. I just mentioned 10-bit it since he's looking to cut footage with the s1h, 10-bit will give more flexibility in post. And in his words, the GH5 didn't cut it, so your RX certainly wouldn't either. This is the criteria, ignore me and focus on this: "I want another camera to cut to occasionally that is: A - always in focus regardless of how animated the interviewer is. On some focal lengths even at F4 it's possible for an interviewee to lean in and out of focus very easily. B - reasonably shallow DOF so it looks nice and not like a camcorder. C- unmanned. I want to press go and when i come to edit, know it will be in focus. Those three factors mean I need autofocus for that other camera. TBH I think the current fashionable dogma of "REAL film-makers don't use autofocus" comes from a sort of aspirational attitude, wanting to have a big crew etc. It's fine if you have enough people and time, but both cost far more money than gear. In reality I shoot lots of interviews a year often entirely alone. Autofocus would mean I don't have to hire someone else, something that would be prohibitively expensive budget-wise to get someone good. If you are on your own only holding focus on a face while moving, that isn't an "artistic" task. It's a technical one. We are at the point where computers do such tasks very well and will only get better. I have already tried this sort of shoot with a GH5 b-cam and it didn't work. We aren't even talking about razor thing DOF, just not camcorder/mobile-phone deep. And still it always ended up hunting or pulsing at some point, in the end I sold it. Contrast based AF is just not up to the task. That leaves me with Sony or Canon. My only real worry with Sony was cutting their 8-bit 4:2:0 against the S1H 6K 12-bit raw." aaa123jc 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webrunner5 Posted January 2, 2022 Share Posted January 2, 2022 All this autofocus talk makes me laugh. Other than maybe the latest Canon DPAF 4th gen I would not trust AF if it is an important shoot for nothing. There is no such thing as set it walk away and it will be great. If it can go to shit it will. Even if it drifts out of focus once it is ruined in my mind, just like crappy audio is a total turnoff. If you get the right lens with the right sensor you can cover just about anything in MF. You find the right backdrop to use to mask unwanted distractions. Yeah one man band stuff is hard and most of it looks it. Why do people think you can just take a modern camera and shoot a full length feature film solo on it. The laws of physics have not changed that I know of, They have tape hooks on cine cameras for a reason. DOF charts abound on the web. Some of this stuff just sounds like laziness to me. I have said it 200 times on here. Video is hard as hell to do. Every damn aspect of it is hard. From storyboard to final cut. They have 20 people helping out for a reason. And your going to trust AF on something you probably can never repeat. What if he picks his nose, blows his nose, has a hell of a big nose and turns his head. You can't even use eye focus on a woman with long bangs and other types of long hairdos. Your asking for the impossible with AF. And you are even talking a Panny SIH, a hell of a camera with less than Steller AF. Yikes. aaa123jc and Trek of Joy 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaa123jc Posted January 2, 2022 Share Posted January 2, 2022 The 8bit S-Log2 is not going to cut well with the S1H. The differences between the color science and codec are too big. It is possible to match them but takes too much time. Shooting with a deeper DoF with MF is much more doable. If you want a blurrier background, just create as much distance between the subject and the background. The real issue is budget. Within that price range, you can only get 8bit internal, let alone the highly compressed codec, from Sony (or Canon?). I find recording with an external recorder helps a lot, even though the HDMI output may still be 8bit only. But a recorder adds a lot to the cost and for certain Sony cameras, the face detection simply doesn't work with an external recorder. webrunner5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webrunner5 Posted January 2, 2022 Share Posted January 2, 2022 48 minutes ago, aaa123jc said: certain Sony cameras, the face detection simply doesn't work with an external recorder. Ahh I was not aware of that, good tip. Doing video is just so addictive. Every shot you have a chance of getting top notch output. A worthy goal for sure. But it can be the most frustrating stuff also in the very next shot. Ehh what a hobby, a profession. Trouble is now as soon as you get good with the camera you upgrade to a better one and start all over. aaa123jc 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trek of Joy Posted January 2, 2022 Share Posted January 2, 2022 2 hours ago, webrunner5 said: All this autofocus talk makes me laugh. Other than maybe the latest Canon DPAF 4th gen I would not trust AF if it is an important shoot for nothing. There is no such thing as set it walk away and it will be great. If it can go to shit it will. Even if it drifts out of focus once it is ruined in my mind, just like crappy audio is a total turnoff. Times have changed, I shoot almost exclusively with AF thanks to being farsighted and shooting in the sun a lot - which makes anything outside of the EVF difficult to judge focus. As a solo shooter I can't monitor through the EVF and conduct interviews at the same time. Sony's Real Time Tracking is easily as good and in many cases superior to Canon's DPAF. Its been a game changer for me and has actually sped up my workflow. I can get the shot faster. It can track a subject far better than you can with MF, even with super shallow DOF like with the 50/1.2 or the long end of a zoom lens. I was shooting someone walking down a path with the 200-600 at about 500mm LOL, and it stuck to her like glue. Just awesome. If you haven't used it, you really don't have a leg to stand on with that argument. It reliably sticks to whatever you lock on to, and if there's a face or eye it'll track that with amazing precision, even with things like dogs or birds moving at speeds faster than most can follow manually. If it drifts a bit you can always cover it with Broll or use the drift as an edit point just like you would with any other shot that's out of focus since anybody manually focusing large aperture lenses can't nail focus 100% of the time. And with Sony's new breathing compensation you can easily eliminate any of the background movement as the AF tracks people moving. Its really a thing of beauty. Do I get missed shots because the AF misses, sure, but I get far less than focusing manually. That's saves me time, and time is money for me. I get it, some just don't want to embrace change or new tech, but these are just tools to get the job done and they do a damn fine job of getting the shot. As always YMMV. Cheers Chris aaa123jc 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webrunner5 Posted January 2, 2022 Share Posted January 2, 2022 Thanks for the explanation Chris. Yeah I am sure I am out of the times keeping up with the newer high end stuff. So glad it's working out for you. I would think you could control some of the AF problems or at least monitor it using the Sony app on your smartphone? Even my little RX0 II has WIFI and Bluetooth. Yeah if it works @ 500mm than you must have a winner on your hand. I have a 80-400mm Tokina that I sure as hell wish it worked that good lol. I either have to have my Zucuto EVF or my 7" Monitor to check focus with it and even then pretty slow to go birding with. But it's old just like me so both beyond help I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaa123jc Posted January 2, 2022 Share Posted January 2, 2022 3 hours ago, webrunner5 said: Ahh I was not aware of that, good tip. Doing video is just so addictive. Every shot you have a chance of getting top notch output. A worthy goal for sure. But it can be the most frustrating stuff also in the very next shot. Ehh what a hobby, a profession. Trouble is now as soon as you get good with the camera you upgrade to a better one and start all over. Sadly, I learned it the hard way. Almost ruined the whole interview. 😆 webrunner5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webrunner5 Posted January 2, 2022 Share Posted January 2, 2022 2 minutes ago, aaa123jc said: Sadly, I learned it the hard way. Almost ruined the whole interview. 😆 That seems kind of crazy. Well it IS crazy. Were you using the camera overlays on the monitor or a clean out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaa123jc Posted January 2, 2022 Share Posted January 2, 2022 2 minutes ago, webrunner5 said: That seems kind of crazy. Well it IS crazy. Were you using the camera overlays on the monitor or a clean out? As a clean out. The job was to do a long interview so I had to use an external recorder for my Sony A7 III. I pressed record and left it unmanned to operate another camera. What a mistake. Missed a lot of focus. Luckily I had another camera angle to cut to so it wasn't too obvious. That was a long time ago though. I find manual focus for interview looks more natural, given the subject doesn't move like crazy. But I guess that's purely personal taste. The cameras I own right now can't do proper autofocus at all anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webrunner5 Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 Yeah you have to have no older than a couple of years old stuff and even then that is no real Cine cameras do AF well which we aren't buying one of them anyways. To be honest as good as Mirrorless is getting I don't think I would even want a pure Cine camera anymore if they gave me one. A Sony FS5 mk II would not be too bad but I like the ability to be able to shoot some photos with one also. Maybe on a given day nothing but photos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trek of Joy Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 2 hours ago, webrunner5 said: Thanks for the explanation Chris. Yeah I am sure I am out of the times keeping up with the newer high end stuff. So glad it's working out for you. I would think you could control some of the AF problems or at least monitor it using the Sony app on your smartphone? Even my little RX0 II has WIFI and Bluetooth. Yeah if it works @ 500mm than you must have a winner on your hand. I have a 80-400mm Tokina that I sure as hell wish it worked that good lol. I either have to have my Zucuto EVF or my 7" Monitor to check focus with it and even then pretty slow to go birding with. But it's old just like me so both beyond help I guess. The phone app lags a bit. The Monitor+ app isn't as bad - its much better than Sony's and well worth the cash - it has great functionality. But a phone isn't bright enough outside and it overheats in direct sunlight pretty quick. I don't want to fry my overpriced iPhone LOL! I have a really bright monitor, its just more time consuming to setup and a lot more to carry with batteries, cables and such. I'm a one-man-band and for most shoots I lug all my gear in a carry-on size backpack, that's 2-3 bodies, 4 or 5 lenses, my drone, a monopod and all accessories including a gimbal at times. If its a slower paced project, I rig the camera out a little bit with cage, handle, Ninja and so on and just throw it in an old porta brace camcorder bag from my old FS100 days. As far as 500mm, I was shooting osprey's last spring with the a7sIII and the 200-600. I just tapped the LCD to lock onto one as it was sitting in its nest. When it took off I just followed it around as it swooped down to grab a fish. When it was eating back at the nest, nearly every time it looked my way I got the eye AF box on its eye. It just blows me away how good Real Time Tracking works. A guy next to me was shooting with the a1, which was even better. The capabilities are just amazing. Cheers Chris kye and webrunner5 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emanuel Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 Nice readable and enjoyable conversation, thanks to the contributions of everyone :- ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgharding Posted January 9, 2022 Author Share Posted January 9, 2022 Hi all, Many thanks for all the extra input, I can't really go through and reply individually to all the points but it was good to get more input and insight. I have the ZV E10 now and am in testing to try and make myself a post-pipeline and LUT setup to make colour matching as painless as possible, so there isn't so much repeat work. TBH the autofocus is pretty phenomenal with native Sony lenses. It really has come so far now, I don't think I could match it unless I were only doing the job of focussing and practiced a lot. The robots will have us beat in not too long for most circumstances. It's very impressive on a gimbal too, I ordered the new Zhiyun Crane M3 and all put together it is very light and easy to use. The ZV E10 rolling shutter is utterly horrific in 4K mode though, but for the most part it should be fine. I mean it's really bad, as in if a subject sways to the side quickly their head bends! I guess that is the downside of Sony trying to squeeze as many models as possible from this old sensor. I did own the original RX10 back int eh day, and still have the RX100 MK V, though I will probably sell it now. I think they're useful cameras, but the 1-inch sensor definitely has a certain crunchy look to it. It's quite cool and 16mm like, but I reckon the APSC will cut better TBH. webrunner5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgharding Posted January 14, 2022 Author Share Posted January 14, 2022 It's been a while since using Sony Slog2 and HLG in anger. What has really surpirsed me in my test is just HOW MUCH you have to ETTR. Seems any less than 2-stops over and things look generally terrible. It's a very weird design because you'd think they'd just tell the in-camera meter to read about 2 under or something... With ETTR you can actually get surprisingly good skin out of it considering it is Sony and 8-bit, without it, everything is bordering on grotesque hahah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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