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Andrew Reid

Blackmagic not just by name - why the Cinema Camera is the future

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[quote author=johnbauerphoto link=topic=613.msg4336#msg4336 date=1334840258]
What kind of processing power do you think will be needed to properly work with the camera's files especially the DNG RAWs.
[/quote]

In video encoding you have a trade-off between processing power and hard disk speed.  If you leave the video uncompressed your processor has very little work to do, but you need a very big and very fast hard drive.  If you compress the video heavily, your processor has to work hard, but the hard disk doesn't.  So the raw from the Blackmagic cam is the first of these - processing power should not be an issue, but storage speed and capacity will be.

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs
[quote author=johnbauerphoto link=topic=613.msg4336#msg4336 date=1334840258]
What kind of processing power do you think will be needed to properly work with the camera's files especially the DNG RAWs.

Right now I'm editing all my Mark 2 footage on a late 2009 iMac. native h264 or prores both work pretty flawlessly in Final Cut or Premiere Pro.

I can imagine the 2.5k DNG RAW files could be a problem for my machine. What kind of power do you think you would need to process these files?

I really can't afford the Camera, SSDs and a new Computer.
[/quote]

You'll need a new comp, i can't see you editing RAW 2.5k files in Resolve on a 2009 iMac, that's a high end workflow after all.

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ok so was looking up comparing specs with the BM and  my favorite cam out there the Ikonoscope A cam D2 ( here is a fine video to show you what it can do with Linos machine lenses https://vimeo.com/36804057) now the Ikon shoots 1080 RAW right as opposed to the 2 1/2 K sized Blackmagic? Now looking at the Ikon 1080 16 sensor 12 bit from that video ( yes it graded) why the insistence on 2 1/2 K as the holy grail for cinema?  The Ikon is a $9k camera that should be  sold for less but I get their philosophy and limited output, these Scandinavians aint getting rich off this cam.... but 12bit RAW, I mean wouldn't that be a real option for  camera manu to deliver at even better price?  The form factor on the Ikon as a cinema camera is just stunning BTW as compared to the BM alarm clock.

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[quote author=TC link=topic=613.msg4337#msg4337 date=1334840426]
[quote author=Simco123 link=topic=613.msg4335#msg4335 date=1334840021]
Canon, Nikon, Sony and Panasonic are not daft ... that is why they refuse to charge a big premium for video features on dSLR.
[/quote]

Have you been following the news in recent weeks?  What is the $8k mark up on the 1D C over the 1D X, if not a (very) big premium for video features?  Check Westfall was interviewed at NAB and asked why the 1D C was so much more expensive.  Apart from the headphone jack his answer listed only firmware features.
[/quote]
Yes I have been following that. They are not daft, well not always, as I have said above. $15,000 is clearly targetd for the video crowd. Considering Canon do drastically reduce prices for their video cameras, ie C300, it is likely we would see the EOS 1D C 4k selling at $10k and considering the 1DX is already $7k they are offering the 4k video feature for $3k. I expect the video will be lot better than those seen on the 5DIII.

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why couldnt stupid canon make the 5dmk3 2k raw and prores and the 1dc 4k raw and prores, now they dont have anything to compete with black magic or digital bolex or ikonoskop.
they should blow our minds and give the 5dmk3 the upgrade of a life time! then theyd be back in the game!

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Very good article Andrew, a real eye opener indeed. Just hope they avoid any kind of buy out attempt by the big boys.  This camera, if as successful as promised, will indeed crush sales in too many categories including the niche markets. If Red doesn't re-investigate its margin strategies it will die. IMHO Red ceased being cutting edge a long time ago when they succumbed to the allure of Hollywood just as Canon is doing now.  Andrew you are right in so many ways and time will tell what gems may come from this small little company that could . . . can't wait.

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[quote author=jlev23 link=topic=613.msg4348#msg4348 date=1334846007]
why couldnt stupid canon make the 5dmk3 2k raw and prores and the 1dc 4k raw and prores, now they dont have anything to compete with black magic or digital bolex or ikonoskop.
they should blow our minds and give the 5dmk3 the upgrade of a life time! then theyd be back in the game!
[/quote]

This is because like all still cameras aimed for still shooters video features are practically free.

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[quote author=johnbauerphoto link=topic=613.msg4340#msg4340 date=1334841846]
that's what I thought. I can imagine that some people are in this situation. DNG RAW is great but you need to have the power to work with it. And if you don't have it the 3k$ can quickly turn in to some more k...
[/quote]

Yeah I'm in the same boat, looking at a new iMac probably, ouch, but what can you do I guess.

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Magic Lantern and the GH2 hack have shown us just how much manufacturers have intentionally hobbled their cameras.  If Canon wanted to slow down the hype and potential sales for the launch of the Blackmagic Cinema Camera, all they'd have to do is release a video specific firmware upgrade for their line of video enabled EOS cameras.  If they really pushed it, I bet they could do this before the release of BM's camera in July.
I've always been curious about the potential of the 7D with its dual digic 4 processors.  As far as I can tell, the only real benefit of the dual processors is the ability to shoot 18 mega pixel raw photos at a rate of 8 frames per second.  I don't think the dual processors are being used for any video functions at all.
If Canon could add some of the choice features offered by Magic Lantern, improve fine detail resolution, reduce moire and the jello effect, and send clean video out from HDMI, they'd already have a Blackmagic killer on the market in the 7D.  It's got a super35 sized chip, does fantastic time lapse, and is built like a tank.  Where they're lacking is on the software side.  Let's face it, Canon's cameras are just not very post-production friendly.
Any thoughts?  Am I nuts, or naive, or both?
By the way... I started pestering Canon about these issues a couple months ago.  So far all I've got in return are some automated responses and a promise to bump my concerns up to someone higher.  Not holding my breath on that one.  Blackmagic's camera came as a complete shock and I'm so glad someone is finally shaking things up.

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The image the camera produces matters most to me. Specs are numbers, I rather wait and see what it can do. When the C300 was announced the specs was underwhelming, but once we saw what it could do, it was a different story. I think people are jumping too quick calling this camera the messiah.

Andrew I see where you're coming from, but I think you're jumping the gun. Until we see good samples and test, I'm not calling it the future. I'll say it has the potential, but seeing is believing for me.

I know i'm going to get people screaming at me because I don't 100% agree with Andrew but whatever.

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[quote author=johnbauerphoto link=topic=613.msg4336#msg4336 date=1334840258]

Right now I'm editing all my Mark 2 footage on a late 2009 iMac. native h264 or prores both work pretty flawlessly in Final Cut or Premiere Pro.

[/quote]

Resolve needs more than 2009 iMac only because of Cuda, which even new macs can't handle right. Processor/ram wise I think you'd be okay. For what its worth, even the hacked GH2 is a major resource hog and I intended to upgrade iMacs (I have the same model year) this year anyway. Thunderbolt and SSDs are going to do a lot of extend the lifetime of our macs this generation for video purposes so its probably a wise investment.

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[quote author=johnbauerphoto link=topic=613.msg4336#msg4336 date=1334840258]
What kind of processing power do you think will be needed to properly work with the camera's files especially the DNG RAWs.
[/quote]

You don't edit with RAW files, no one does, you use proxies.
RED has a quite cool quicktime proxies system that allows you to create different res quicktime proxies that are just an alias and don't take up any disk space, but they interpret the RED raw footage as lower res quicktimes, that you can edit on any system.

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You don't edit with RAW files, no one does, you use proxies.
RED has a quite cool quicktime proxies system that allows you to create different res quicktime proxies that are just an alias and don't take up any disk space, but they interpret the RED raw footage as lower res quicktimes, that you can edit on any system.
[/quote]

Interesting.  How long do the quicktime proxies take to render?  Using things like Magic Bullet or any video noise reduction software take at least 3x real time to render before getting a usable preview.

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[quote author=Bruno link=topic=613.msg4357#msg4357 date=1334850962]
[quote author=johnbauerphoto link=topic=613.msg4336#msg4336 date=1334840258]
What kind of processing power do you think will be needed to properly work with the camera's files especially the DNG RAWs.
[/quote]

You don't edit with RAW files, no one does, you use proxies.
RED has a quite cool quicktime proxies system that allows you to create different res quicktime proxies that are just an alias and don't take up any disk space, but they interpret the RED raw footage as lower res quicktimes, that you can edit on any system.
[/quote]


I know you do all the cutting with proxie files which makes sense, but you have to use the DNG files for grading don't you?

I thought about upgrade to the newest iMacs but I don't know if it's worth it right now... Thunderbolt and SSDs is great but like you said they will not give you the Cuda support...

It really seems like the perfekt low budget camera but postproduction hardware could be a problem for the low budget shooter..

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[quote author=mike_tee_vee link=topic=613.msg4358#msg4358 date=1334852026]


You don't edit with RAW files, no one does, you use proxies.
RED has a quite cool quicktime proxies system that allows you to create different res quicktime proxies that are just an alias and don't take up any disk space, but they interpret the RED raw footage as lower res quicktimes, that you can edit on any system.
[/quote]

Interesting.  How long do the quicktime proxies take to render?  Using things like Magic Bullet or any video noise reduction software take at least 3x real time to render before getting a usable preview.
[/quote]

If you got Resolve you might as well throw your copy of Magic Bullet in the bin, Resolve is quicker and way more powerful but does need the right cards etc as ppl have noted.

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Quicktimes are just like a prores file, so you can edit real time, but you wouldn't do any post work or grading to it.
Once you're done with editing, then you move on to post and grading, for that you replace the proxies with the raw files.

It's obviously more of a cumbersome workflow, but it's what you get if wanna shoot RAW.

However, for most independent filmmakers, Prores will probably be enough, as it will be so much richer than the DSLR footage, and still very gradeable.

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