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Why did Canon remove so many EOS R features on the more expensive EOS R6?


Andrew Reid
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25 minutes ago, herein2020 said:

 

But yes, if you are as paranoid as I am about having a copy of the footage, and if the R5 allowed this, then that would be a way to get video storage redundancy. Maybe an R5 owner can chime in and say if you are even allowed to do this with the R5.

With the R5 only in 8K RAW you can have 4K 10bit or 8bit copy on the SD card, other modes are single card only.

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6 minutes ago, gt3rs said:

With the R5 only in 8K RAW you can have 4K 10bit or 8bit copy on the SD card, other modes are single card only.

The question though is if you can record to the internal card and output a clean HDMI signal to an external recorder at the same time. The R6 does not let you do this.

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48 minutes ago, Fox said:

I understand Sony A1 has an even better handling of rolling shutter with its stacked sensor.


Sony IBIS seems not as good as Canon’s indeed, but doesn’t occasionally introduce wobble to the footage as Canon R5 does either. To me that wobble issue is really a concern, and I think I’d prefer having a less capable IBIS better than nothing than a more powerful IBIS that would overdo its job. 

Sure the price of Ninja + SSDs equals to CFexpress, but CFexpress don’t record ProRes (raw) 

I’m shooting a wide variety of things, from commercials to run and gun short documentaries sometimes, as well as still photography ( that’s why I need a mirorless rather than a dedicated camera).

Again, that lack of 8K raw support is holding me off the A1. I do intend to shoot some 8K and would rather have the gear future proof

 

 

Sony A1 in 8K video has exactly the same rolling shutter as the R5 15.5ms..... don't trust marketing bla bla.

Why you want to use ProRes Raw instead of Canon Raw Light? Did you test both 8k RAW in your machine?

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1 minute ago, herein2020 said:

The question though is if you can record to the internal card and output a clean HDMI signal to an external recorder at the same time. The R6 does not let you do this.

Sorry I have no idea as I hate external recorders.

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8 minutes ago, gt3rs said:


Why you want to use ProRes Raw instead of Canon Raw Light? Did you test both 8k RAW in your machine?

I believe ProRes Raw produces smaller file sizes, editing standard codec, and the recorder gives me longer recording times on cheaper SSD storage with no overheating

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15 minutes ago, Fox said:

I believe ProRes Raw produces smaller file sizes, editing standard codec, and the recorder gives me longer recording times on cheaper SSD storage with no overheating

Internally both A1 and R5 will eventually overheat with the A1 having longer recording times than the R5.

Externally I have no idea about the A1 and never used my R5 with an external recording but as it is currently not yet possible to record externally 8k RAW from the R5 I would still be cautious in assuming that it will not overheat.

As ProRes Raw being a standard codec is debatable as basically no camera supports it natively and Resolve does not support it at all.  Files being smaller it could be but are any effective datarate for 8k of the ninja being published yet?

It is fair to assume that with the Ninja V+ you will get more recording times but I would wait until is available and tests are done, there will be some quirks as always.

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13 minutes ago, gt3rs said:

Internally both A1 and R5 will eventually overheat with the A1 having longer recording times than the R5.
 

According to numerous tests you'll be able to find on youtube comparing both, especially the torough ones from Gerlad Undone, A1 practically does not overheat at all.

 

13 minutes ago, gt3rs said:

Externally I have no idea about the A1 and never used my R5 with an external recording but as it is currently not yet possible to record externally 8k RAW from the R5 I would still be cautious in assuming that it will not overheat.

It's already officialy announced as fully supported for the R5 by Atomos on the new Ninja V+ which will be released at the end of the month. And according to the same tests already done by numerous reviewers, R5 with no card inside already recording 4KHQ (the other internal overheating source) externally to the Ninja V shows no overheating from the R5 either. All conclude that when solely recording externally with HDMI, overheating is old story.

 

13 minutes ago, gt3rs said:

As ProRes Raw being a standard codec is debatable as basically no camera supports it natively and Resolve does not support it at all.  Files being smaller it could be but are any effective datarate for 8k of the ninja being published yet?

I don't use Resolve, I edit on Avid Media Composer and ProRes Raw is natively fully supported. Regarding datarates, Apple already published references and it's a very efficient, edit-friendly and non destructive codec.
 

13 minutes ago, gt3rs said:


It is fair to assume that with the Ninja V+ you will get more recording times but I would wait until is available and tests are done, there will be some quirks as always.

I assume Atomos has already enough expertise to deliver proper functionning gear in this regards. The only question now to me is should I go with Sony A1 hoping they'll eventually also make it able to externally record 8K Raw and 4K120 to the V+ or should I play it "safe" in case they don't, and go with the IBIS wobbling R5...

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As an R6 user that upgraded from an EOS R, yes there are some strange missing things that make the upgrade kinda feel like a downgrade in some areas. But in the end, for my needs, its a very clear upgrade: oversampled 4K with no crop, IBIS, internal 10-bit 4:2:2, 120 fps FHD.

If you add DPAF to the mix, well there really isn't much competition for those particular features at that price point.

Of course if you can stretch your budget to an A7S3 you get a more reliable camera and 4K120p but on the stills side you're down to 12MP. Not that the R6 is a MP beast but 20MP is a decent balance. 

Biggest problem in the end with R6 is the overheating which limits it to only certain types of applications. I do use mine professionally as my C-cam for short product shots, BTS footage etc.. and as a stills camera (all my Canon DSLR flash accessories etc integrate perfectly).

It's always a bit of a compromise though with Canon it feels. Sometimes I do regret not fully switching systems but I just don't gel with Sony mirrorless ergonomics and CS. Love the FX/FS cine line though. My next purchase will probably be BM 6K Pro, I'm kind of done with consumer hybrids as A-cams after shooting with one.

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1 hour ago, Django said:

As an R6 user that upgraded from an EOS R, yes there are some strange missing things that make the upgrade kinda feel like a downgrade in some areas. But in the end, for my needs, its a very clear upgrade: oversampled 4K with no crop, IBIS, internal 10-bit 4:2:2, 120 fps FHD.

The oversampling doesn't mean anything. In both the 24p and 60p it is the same and looks sub-sampled with some aliasing visible.

The 10bit 422 is a pain to edit.

The 120fps HD isn't unique, that has been around since the Sony A99 II several years ago.

The IBIS is no better performing than the competition.

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If you add DPAF to the mix, well there really isn't much competition for those particular features at that price point.

Actually DPAF is no longer even top dog. The newest Sony AF systems are better.

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Of course if you can stretch your budget to an A7S3 you get a more reliable camera and 4K120p but on the stills side you're down to 12MP. Not that the R6 is a MP beast but 20MP is a decent balance.

I don't mind 20MP.

I do like the C-LOG 10bit image quality on the whole it nails the rendering of a shot with perfect colour and white balance.

It's a good sensor and that is why it is frustrating to have the other issues and strange crippling but I no longer expect anything different when it comes to such an unethical company in my opinion

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It's always a bit of a compromise though with Canon it feels. Sometimes I do regret not fully switching systems but I just don't gel with Sony mirrorless ergonomics and CS. Love the FX/FS cine line though. My next purchase will probably be BM 6K Pro, I'm kind of done with consumer hybrids as A-cams after shooting with one.

I know what you mean, I am not gelling a whole lot with many cameras at all at the moment, all a lot of room for improvement really. The manufacturers need to step it up.

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3 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

 

The 10bit 422 is a pain to edit.

The 120fps HD isn't unique, that has been around since the Sony A99 II several years ago.

 

FHD 10bit 422 is ok for editing, 4K just need proxy.. and what wrong with proxy? Our 600GB footage for Continental Tyres (shoot car smashing foams at 4k120p on 2 c70 and bunch of gopros/ insta360) just used additional 20GB for proxies but editing is much more doable.

The more I used c70 the more i really hate c200's 8bit 420, the picture breaking out much quicker than even r5's 422 10bit. 

Not many cameras shoot 422 10bit 120p.. which is nicer for post, just DR on Canon mirrorless is even below some m43 machines out there.

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1 hour ago, ntblowz said:

FHD 10bit 422 is ok for editing, 4K just need proxy.. and what wrong with proxy? Our 600GB footage for Continental Tyres (shoot car smashing foams at 4k120p on 2 c70 and bunch of gopros/ insta360) just used additional 20GB for proxies but editing is much more doable.

The more I used c70 the more i really hate c200's 8bit 420, the picture breaking out much quicker than even r5's 422 10bit. 

Not many cameras shoot 422 10bit 120p.. which is nicer for post, just DR on Canon mirrorless is even below some m43 machines out there.

For me the biggest problem with proxies is time. I am already competing in a race to the bottom to get customers as it is, they are not going to pay me extra to spend extra time creating proxies or editing impossible to edit footage. 

I know you can just start the process and walk away then return when the proxies are completed, but that is still taking up your workstation's time, affecting your power bill, etc...all for what? 4:2:2 vs 4:2:0 the difference which is imperceptible to the customer?

Now if you work in the space where customers have budgets that include the additional costs associated with 4:2:2 footage and can recoup that time financially then that's great; but its not the reality of my typical customer. If I had that type of customer on a regular basis I'd probably be shooting with C70's as well or C300's.

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27 minutes ago, herein2020 said:

For me the biggest problem with proxies is time. I am already competing in a race to the bottom to get customers as it is, they are not going to pay me extra to spend extra time creating proxies or editing impossible to edit footage. 

I know you can just start the process and walk away then return when the proxies are completed, but that is still taking up your workstation's time, affecting your power bill, etc...all for what? 4:2:2 vs 4:2:0 the difference which is imperceptible to the customer?

Now if you work in the space where customers have budgets that include the additional costs associated with 4:2:2 footage and can recoup that time financially then that's great; but its not the reality of my typical customer. If I had that type of customer on a regular basis I'd probably be shooting with C70's as well or C300's.

Yeah each people's scenario is different, since I m in a production company when doing company jobs all those extra cost like power bills etc is not a problem, and having multiple workstations and personnel that can scale accordingly..

 

For my personal jobs I dont need to proxy (ryzen/3080 rules!) so not a huge problem for me anyway, just work's computer is only 8 core which it will need proxy.

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There is definitely something strange going on with Canons R5/R6 10-bit 4:2:2 Clog files.

None of my Macs can even play them. At all. Including my iMac Pro. I have to transcode it all to ProRes with EditReady. It's definitely a giant PITA. 

Why is this so? is it because 10-bit 4:2:2 h265?? Do the new M1 Macs handle these files better? Might have to go to Apple store with a thumb drive and see for myself.

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6 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

I know what you mean, I am not gelling a whole lot with many cameras at all at the moment, all a lot of room for improvement really. The manufacturers need to step it up.

Go back to basics. I've watched a few of your older videos recently, the ones you've had on your banner, and your old reel... 

... is simply gorgeous and holds up very well! Even your hacked GH1 videos look amazing. I assume you don't want to go back to a GH1, but if you're not gelling with the newer cameras, pull out your 1DC.

Or go back to your roots and shoot with a couple of the newer budget cameras... the X-S10 seems really good. The E-M5 Mark III has all-i 200mbps 1080p. Even the GX9/G95's 4K crop offer some interesting opportunities to shoot handheld with some funky, old S16 lenses.

Or go the opposite direction and rent/buy a Komodo or C500 Mark II.

I've been considering an FP, an S5 or an X-T4; and although they are all great cameras... I am more inspired when I pick up my 5D3. It doesn't have IBIS or AF... or even 4K... but that raw image just makes me smile and the camera is an extension of my arm at this point.

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There's something about the GH2 and Samsung NX1 that they got right, and it makes me want to just pick one up again and shoot. The instantaneous of it and the quirky charm. No fuss. Fuji's ergonomics feel like they are in a straight jacket and the controls feel brittle.

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I think I like the idea of all those Fuji dials more than I'd like them in real life. An ISO and WB button is more exciting to me in practice.

The GH2 was amazing... you could see that something special was happening on the screen when you hit record. I even enjoyed my brief stint with the GH3. That all-i codec was really nice and the ergonomics felt a little more refined. I've never owned a 4K camera that I really enjoyed using. The GX85/G85 were okay and kinda fun to shoot with, but I went from the G7 to a D5500 and was ecstatic... until I tried ML Raw on a 50D and got hooked. I still want to give a 1DC a try one day though. 

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4 hours ago, Django said:

There is definitely something strange going on with Canons R5/R6 10-bit 4:2:2 Clog files.

None of my Macs can even play them. At all. Including my iMac Pro. I have to transcode it all to ProRes with EditReady. It's definitely a giant PITA. 

Why is this so? is it because 10-bit 4:2:2 h265?? Do the new M1 Macs handle these files better? Might have to go to Apple store with a thumb drive and see for myself.

There is a gap in NVIDIA's GPU acceleration specifically when it comes to H.265 and H.264 and 4:2:2 encoding. If you look closely at their supported GPU acceleration matrix, 4:2:2 is not listed anywhere; which is strange because 4:4:4 is supported. I believe the AMD story is the same.

https://developer.nvidia.com/video-encode-and-decode-gpu-support-matrix-new

What is weird is that even the RTX3080 is not listed as supporting GPU acceleration for 4:2:2 yet @ntblowz is able to edit the footage. I have to guess that the RTX3080 is somehow decoding/encoding the footage although the official support chart shows it does not support this. I am tired of upgrading video cards every few years so I'm holding out until the RTX3080TI comes out or a card from NVIDIA is released that shows 4:2:2 support before I upgrade from my RTX2080TI.

All evidence states the M1 Mac can edit the footage flawlessly; personally I am in the Intel and Davinci Resolve camp so I'm still waiting on official video card support. Also, I am curious to see what Intel's or NVIDIA's response to the M1 will be. I don't doubt they are both scrambling behind the scenes to figure out how Apple did it and how to come out with their own versions.

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12 hours ago, Django said:

There is definitely something strange going on with Canons R5/R6 10-bit 4:2:2 Clog files.

None of my Macs can even play them. At all. Including my iMac Pro. I have to transcode it all to ProRes with EditReady. It's definitely a giant PITA. 

Why is this so? is it because 10-bit 4:2:2 h265?? Do the new M1 Macs handle these files better? Might have to go to Apple store with a thumb drive and see for myself.

Are you using Premiere?

It is the same on the M1. They don't even play at half res from the internal 3000MB/s SSD

I don't even think the Canon 10bit 4:2:2 H.265 is hardware accelerated in Premiere on Intel.

But Fuji 10bit 4:2:0 H.265 is.

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7 hours ago, herein2020 said:

All evidence states the M1 Mac can edit the footage flawlessly; personally I am in the Intel and Davinci Resolve camp so I'm still waiting on official video card support. Also, I am curious to see what Intel's or NVIDIA's response to the M1 will be. I don't doubt they are both scrambling behind the scenes to figure out how Apple did it and how to come out with their own versions.

M1 has hardware acceleration in FCPX for H.265 10bit 422

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Sensibly Sony have included a 10bit 4:2:0 option as well as 10bit 4:2:2 for 4K at all frame rates on the A7S III.

So it should be much easier to edit.

Will be interesting to see what the image quality difference is like.

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