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AaronChicago

GH5 vs Ursa Mini 4.6K

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17 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Well I guess there is a time to just embrace that this is 2017, not 1950. The Digital look is here to stay like it or not. 4k is in, 720 is out. I think as a hobbyist I would love to keep the film look alive. But like I said, if I am trying to make a buck, put food on the table, I don't think a lot of cameras we associate with the Filmic look is going to cut it when you have to take any job that comes up.

It has to be a later Sony, later Panasonic, later Canon C series, and yes even a GH4, and it seems the GH5 Has to be in the mix as they say. There is no going back. For fun a BMPCC, 5D mkIII, for money making a Sony A7 mkII, Panny GH5. Bigger money stuff, Canon C series, Sony FS5 middle ground price. Canon C100, C300 probably the best overall for a balance between Film look, Digital look I think hands down. The Sony's, well the low light of them damn hard to turn down, but the worse looking Digital look to me. I think Panny is in the middle. And overall price wise, I think, very hard to beat.

For kind of serious modeling stuff, indie, short films the BM Ursa cameras Have to be in there. Price wise it has to be considered. Sony FS5 also. I like the Usra maybe better overall. But not as mature as the Sony Products. So that tips it in Sony's favor a bit. But showing up with a Sony will get you more jobs than the BM sad to say.

Now I am talking about making a living here, not for a hobby, fun. Hobby, well BM products, the lower end ones, 5D mkIII way up there now with ML.

Just my rambling thoughts about the industry as a whole if I had to do it all over again. Food for thought, and debate as they say. :grin:

A add on here. I think Panasonic, what ever this New camera they are talking about NEEDS this damn camera. It has to be under 6k, maybe even less. They have a Big ass gap in their products. It has to be filled for anyone to take them serious. To be able to move up from a GH5. People are not going from a GH5 to a Varicam LT. Get a grip!! They are sucking hind tit for not having a AF100 product like in the past in their lineup. The CEO of Panasonic needs his ass kicked for ever letting this happen. I mean it! Stupid, just plain damn stupid. Sony has handed their Ass to them because of it with the FS5, Canon with the C100, BM with the Ursa 4.6. Hell even the JVC LS300.

And no the Panasonic AG-DVX200 does not count. It has been a total flop for them. Lots of early problems with it. It ruined its potential even if they get all the bugs worked out. They threw it out the door too quick! It would be hard for me to buy one, even used. It is more of a ENG style camera anyways.

Good points, Don. I think we also need to consider that there is a modern "filmic" look that I think can be described as just as cinematic and very much liked by younger generations. There's this guy on Vimeo, a filmmaker from the Pacific Northwest named AJ Molle and he has been shooting filmic looking stuff since he had a GH3 and LX3. He then went to the GH4 and I believe he shoots with a D16 now, but his stuff has an intriguing mix of digital and film.

Even Alexa footage doesn't necessarily look like film as we know it, but it also doesn't look like consumer/enthusiast digital video either. This is where low end Raw and Log footage helps. But also nailing your exposure in camera and using light color grading in post to keep the image from breaking apart but still giving it a look that just isn't quite reality. 

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs
10 minutes ago, mercer said:

Good points, Don. I think we also need to consider that there is a modern "filmic" look that I think can be described as just as cinematic and very much liked by younger generations. There's this guy on Vimeo, a filmmaker from the Pacific Northwest named AJ Molle and he has been shooting filmic looking stuff since he had a GH3 and LX3. He then went to the GH4 and I believe he shoots with a D16 now, but his stuff has an intriguing mix of digital and film.

Even Alexa footage doesn't necessarily look like film as we know it, but it also doesn't look like consumer/enthusiast digital video either. This is where low end Raw and Log footage helps. But also nailing your exposure in camera and using light color grading in post to keep the image from breaking apart but still giving it a look that just isn't quite reality. 

Well yeah you said the magic word, Raw! That is the secret, and is what makes a Arri, Red, Sony F55, etc., BM stand out. Big time movies are not shot in ProRes LT LoL.

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16 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

Aaron already said: -5. I guess Ursa Mini Pro offers the same IQ. I just don't understand you, Dennis. I follow and share your concern on over processed approach, as stated. But you're a man of post, c'mon... Without mention the best GH4 outcome out there has come from your hands.

I never saw hair looking so bad on my GH4 honestly. If that really was shot on sharpening at -5, the GH5 is clearly worse than the GH4 in terms of overprocessing.

I will just go with the Terra 6k or Blackmagic Ursa Mini Pro for our feature film project, which have an amazing IQ and look really beautiful (both are similar to the RED Weapon Helium 8k but way cheaper).

2 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Well yeah you said the magic word, Raw! That is the secret, and is what makes a Arri, Red, Sony F55, etc., BM stand out.

Their ProRes looks amazing since it's unprocessed, no ugly sharpening nor other nonsense applied (at least for ARRI and BM)

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2 minutes ago, deezid said:

I never saw hair looking so bad on my GH4 honestly. If that really was shot on sharpening at -5, the GH5 is clearly worse than the GH4 in terms of overprocessing.

I will just go with the Terra 6k or Blackmagic Ursa Mini Pro for our feature film project, which have an amazing IQ and look really beautiful (both are similar to the RED Weapon Helium 8k but way cheaper).

Their ProRes looks amazing since it's unprocessed, no ugly sharpening nor other nonsense applied (at least for ARRI and BM)

True but they are at the least using ProRes 4444.  

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Just now, webrunner5 said:

True but they are at the least using ProRes 4444.  

They can even use ProRes LT, but it should be 422 at least to have a proper grain structure without macroblocking.

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9 minutes ago, deezid said:

I never saw hair looking so bad on my GH4 honestly. If that really was shot on sharpening at -5, the GH5 is clearly worse than the GH4 in terms of overprocessing.

I will just go with the Terra 6k or Blackmagic Ursa Mini Pro for our feature film project, which have an amazing IQ and look really beautiful (both are similar to the RED Weapon Helium 8k but way cheaper).

Their ProRes looks amazing since it's unprocessed, no ugly sharpening nor other nonsense applied (at least for ARRI and BM)

Yeah I think for a feature, if you have the budget to shoot with a Terra, BM, or 5D3 you'll get a way better image... no comparison really... but for a $2000 camera and a little elbow grease, you could definitely do worse than the GH5. I actually still think VLog may be overkill even for 10 bit footage... maybe when the 400mbps update happens. If I decide to get one, CineLikeD will be my friend. 

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4 minutes ago, deezid said:

They can even use ProRes LT, but it should be 422 at least to have a proper grain structure without macroblocking.

This is a chart for types of ProRes. Might help out some people down the road to figure out which one to use.

https://documentation.apple.com/en/finalcutpro/professionalformatsandworkflows/index.html#chapter=10%26section=2%26tasks=true

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32 minutes ago, deezid said:

So the example posted here from the GH5 was with sharpening at -5 or 0?
It looks terrible to me, especially on her hair and skin.

The 4.6k Ursa is lightyears ahead. The Ursa Mini Pro is supposed to be way better than the original Ursa 4.6k even!

-5. I normally use a black pro mist 1/4 to help take the edge off.

The UM Pro has the same sensor as the 4.6K so from what I understand its the same image, just enhanced features.

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Just now, webrunner5 said:

This is a chart for types of ProRes. Might help out some people down the road to figure out which one to use.

https://documentation.apple.com/en/finalcutpro/professionalformatsandworkflows/index.html#chapter=10%26section=2%26tasks=true

I know, at least 422. Made some pretty bad experiences with LT, lol.

BTT:
I really don't understand why the GH5 does even more processing than the GH4. Will sell my Panasonic lenses and GH4 soon I guess. I really need a natural looking digital image. :)

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1 minute ago, mercer said:

Yeah I think for a feature, if you have the budget to shoot with a Terra, BM, or 5D3 you'll get a way better image... no comparison really... but for a $2000 camera and a little elbow grease, you could definitely do worse than the GH5. I actually still think VLog may be overkill even for 10 bit footage... maybe when the 400mbps update happens. If I decide to get one, CineLikeD will be my friend. 

I sure as heck know my AF100A is a lot more forgiving using CineLikeD over VLog. Christ VLog is like get it perfect exposure wise or your goose is cooked!

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4 minutes ago, deezid said:

Absolutely, just apply a curve and it looks great.

I also love how Arri LUTS work so well with so many different cameras. A simple S Curve and an Arri LUT at 50% will make even a shot from the D5500's Flat Profile look excellent. 

IMG_0943.JPG

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2 minutes ago, deezid said:

I know, at least 422. Made some pretty bad experiences with LT, lol.

BTT:
I really don't understand why the GH5 does even more processing than the GH4. Will sell my Panasonic lenses and GH4 soon I guess. I really need a natural looking digital image. :)

Well no doubt the lower end cameras are not going to look like a Arri or a Red Lol. If so they would never sell another one to anyone. If you want a great look, you are going to pay a great price, new or used.

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7 minutes ago, AaronChicago said:

-5. I normally use a black pro mist 1/4 to help take the edge off.

The UM Pro has the same sensor as the 4.6K so from what I understand its the same image, just enhanced features.

That's what I use as well. Damn, that really sucks, since my GH4 looks quite clean with it.

The UM Pro has better debayering and downscaling than the UM 4.6k. Less artifacts, not by much though.


UM PRO
4Kcamera-4k_feature_check_4k_testchart_4

UM 4.6k
4Kcamera-4k_feature_check_4k_testchart_2

GH5 (eww, reminds me of the hair actually)
4Kcamera-4k_feature_check_4k_testchart_4

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3 minutes ago, mercer said:

I also love how Arri LUTS work so well with so many different cameras. A simple S Curve and an Arri LUT at 50% will make even a shot from the D5500's Flat Profile look excellent. 

IMG_0943.JPG

Yeah I always lean toward that Arri look. They have mastered the film look way above anyone else. Resolve has some nice Arri LuTs built in.

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4 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

I sure as heck know my AF100A is a lot more forgiving using CineLikeD over VLog. Christ VLog is like get it perfect exposure wise or your goose is cooked!

Well, I'm no expert on such things but a lot of people believe you can just ETTR Log footage and all is good, but as I'm sure you know, not all Log curves are the same, so for most people, a simple Flat Profile would lend better results. 

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Just now, mercer said:

Well, I'm no expert on such things but a lot of people believe you can just ETTR Log footage and all is good, but as I'm sure you know, not all Log curves are the same, so for most people, a simple Flat Profile would lend better results. 

Both the GH4 and as it seems the GH5 as well have a serious yellow saturation problem (and red clipping), so be careful while ETTR.

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9 minutes ago, deezid said:

That's what I use as well. Damn, that really sucks, since my GH4 looks quite clean with it.

The UM Pro has better debayering and downscaling. Less artifacts, not by much though.


UM PRO
4Kcamera-4k_feature_check_4k_testchart_4

UM 4.6k
4Kcamera-4k_feature_check_4k_testchart_2

Yeah I don't understand how they, BM, have picked up the pace as much as they have with just going from 4k to 4.6k? They sure did some good Mojo on their processing to make it happen that is for sure. They are like night and day.

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Just now, deezid said:

Both the GH4 and as it seems the GH5 as well have a serious yellow saturation problem (and red clipping), so be careful while ETTR.

I agree, when I first started getting more serious with video, I had the NX500... I tried getting it as flat as possible and ETTR... I learned quickly that ETTR is usually not your friend. It works great with my 5D3, but I haven't found another camera where it does. 

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