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What is the truth about RED's and BLACK's cameras ?

To B or not to B ?  

17 members have voted

  1. 1. What would You recommend me to do if there was a free choice ?

    • Buy the Raven Package - it is better than the competition or ?
      1
    • Buy the Ursa Mini 4,6K - it is better than the competition or ?
      2
    • Buy a third camera - tell me how many bits, formats and so on
      6
    • Buy an old RED or an old BLACKMAGIC - but tell me why ...
      3
    • Rent the stupid bl.... equipment and stop debting Yourself !
      3
    • Balance good equipment with postproduction-stuff like 980TI !
      2


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11 minutes ago, squig said:

You're better of using the money you'd spend on a Red to buy better sound gear and lighting, and better food for your actors.

Better sound & light, mmm, yes ... but better food ?!?!?  :angry: I just keep my actors fed with garbage in my cellar-dungeon ! :grin:

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs

I could shoot a feature with a 24, a 35, and a 90 but I've accumulated a set ranging from 16 to 300. German film Victoria was all shot with a 25 (37mm full frame equivalent). If you're after a more vintage look the Digital Bolex may be the best way to go. 2.5K raw.

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It's right that you don't need 4K for delivery at the moment...

but it's great for stabilisation, compositing, tracking, reframing and so on... And hard to let go of

absolute need and reasonable desire aren't the same, but the latter can often swing a decision

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30 minutes ago, squig said:

The 5D MK2 doesn't do full HD, slightly less. If you really want to you can record good quality sound on a 5D MK2/MK3 with a juicedlink pre-amp, but it's more professional to record dual system sound with a boom. I don't use EF lenses, I use 60s/70s era Leica-r lenses and Iscorama anamorphic adapters. If you want a filmic Bergman like quality best to go with vinatge glass.

Canon says 5DMK2 shoots HD 1920 x 1080 (16:9) - like 5DMK3  ... but maybe not with Magic Lantern ?
I meant, what focal length suits 5DMK2/3 if You want the best cinematic filmlook ?  The famous 28mm ?

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Guest Ebrahim Saadawi
9 hours ago, TVDino said:

Yeah, good Spielberg-quote !  I like his (at least claimed) social attitude to filmmaking as a building-team, but I actually use a Clint Eastwood-like effective production and try to direct the beautifull way he handles actors ... One of my actors told me I was directing the same way Susanne Bier
did which I don't think is a compliment, so I hope to grow as great as Clint, become as skillfull as Kubrick and balance mainstream with depth !
Talk about marathon-ambitions ...        NB : A smal notice for Ebrahim Saadawi - Scarlet is just a reference for me !

-Resolution :    I may have to settle with 2K (if 4K is too much to handle) for the project waiting, but I really look forward to Ratio 2,4:1
-Frame rate :     Not decided as Europe uses 25, but 24 is said to give a better look; could be due to electricity frequence-difference
                          US 60 Hz/ Europe 50 hz and then I would like to use some Slow Motion frame rates which has to be shot at 2K since
                          Scarlet don't do Slow Motion 4K and it looks like used Epic MX are still way too expensive .

-Low-light ISO performance you shoot at :                 A few scenes outdoor night, but mostly indoor evening, a little bedroom-darkness
-Colour grading/push-ability of the images :               I would like to have some post-room if I get extreme or creative ...

-Dynamic range, super important? :                           The Scarlet range with HDR as an occasional possibility, is very OK
or do you light your stuff creatively? :                         I use the "normal available light + 2 variable spots for creativity

-Shoot doc type or narrative/controlled type? :           Next project mainly fiction, so narrative at the moment

-Need good in-camera audio?  :                                 I hate bad sound in movies, but hope Scarlets inputs wiil be sufficient
XLR microphones or use external recorders?            I have both jack and XLR-mikes and is newbie at sync, but considering external recorders

-Need internal NDs, Auto exposure :                          Nah, will use matte ND's ... trying to avoid auto exposure
-Want Auto focus? :                                                    Auto Focus would be very wellcome, but not so imperative

-What lens mount lenses will you be using?               EF (at some future-point I will start using PL as there are obvious benefits)

-Battery requirements, will you be wanting
 an internal small battery that shoots all day              I often use available AC-plugins at indoor-scenes since my old lamps used 230 Volt ....
 or fine with a V-Lock? :                                              "Internal small battery that shoots all day" ?  Has it been invented ?   V-lock is perfect


-Size/weight? :                                                             A 10 lb RED ONE is for emergency-plan C ... 5 lb and below
 can you use a DSLR to rig or                                     If I wanted 8 bit I'd go for Sony FS5 or even consider Sony A7S2
want a modular RED/Cube or                                     A 12 lb FS7 is for emergency-plan D ... 13,2 lb ? + I hate C100/300's bad ergonomic grip
an FS7/C300 camcorder type?  :                                Modula RED used Scarlet MX (or a cheap Epic MX) looks good,
                                                                                    Ursa Mini 4,6 K is changed to emergency-plan B

-Does the brand of the camera
affect your clients :                                                     Not the present one, BUT the BM-support seems mediocre and
                                                                                   Kinefinity's Chinese support is unknown ...

-Do yo have a preference to a
certain company colour sceince?                               Not really, I was a Canon-Cam-fan and discovered the un-ergonomic C100 ...
                                                                                   Then looked at Sony VG900, X70, A7S2, FS5 and then BM Ursa Mini 4,6 K
                                                                                   failed the promised global shutter until REDS Raven and now i look at old REDs ...
                                                                 
Some people really hate Sony colours
and S-LOG and love Canon and                                Sony RAW can be fixed in post, Canon C-XXX should have great colours,
                                                                                    uncertain about BM's, but ARRI was amazing in "Game of Thrones" !
ARRI colours or REDs?                                              However RED seems to do fine in many movies ...

-Maximum budget in US dollars                                 Raven basic package in EURO

AND I cannot agree with You on bit-importance; I have recorded before on 8 bit, but I can see it gives a cartoon-like neon-result,
I have wellknown danish painters on both parents side and able to see the difference in amount of colours !   I can actually taste
Umani as well as taste red from white wine blindfolded ... Fortunately .

8-bit 256 different values, 10-bit 1024 different values, 12-bit 4096 different values,14-bit 16,384 different values, 16-bit 65,536 different values
Movie Pro's use 16-bit or more and some directors or photographers might have some supersenses making pictures more beautifull for You all ?

Let me summarize: 

1 -So you want a camera with 2k+ resolution,
2 -adequate, but not too demanding high ISO performance,
3 -good 12+ stops of DR,
4 -narrative use (no need for internal NDs and can use external recorders),
5 -can be graded heavily,
6 -psychologically demand higher than 8bit
7 -have no issues with specific companies colour science,
8 -preferably good audio and XLRs
9 -Slowmotion (60p+)
10 -Under about 15 thousand USD

Let's see. You request for +8 bit codec really narrows the options down for you to basically:

All the options of higher than 8bit will help you, here it is from lower to higher cost: 

1 -Canon 50D/5DIII 14bit 
2 -Blackmagic Pocket/Micro, 12bit
3 -Panasonic GH4, 10bit
4 -Blackmagic Cinema Camera 2.5k, 12bit
5 -Blackmagic 4K production camera, 12bit 
6 -Sony F3, 10bit 
7 -Sony FS700, 12bit
8- Red One MX, 12bit 

Now we've crossed the 5.000USD line

8 -Blackmagic Ursa 4K, 12bit 
9 -Blackmagic Ursa Mini 4.6K, 12bit 
10 -Sony F35, 12bit
11 -Sony FS7, 12bit 
12 -Kinifinity cameras, 12bit
 
Now we've crossed the 10.000USD line 

13 -Sony F5, 16bit
14 -Canon C300MKII, C500, 12bit
15 -Red Raven, Scarlet, 12bit

Crossing the 30.000USD line goes to F55/65, 8K Weapon, Arri Alexa, Amira etc, not our subject.

So 15 cameras to choose from on the market that shoot higher than 8bits of colour gradations. That includes all the used Discontinued cameras. 

That really leaves you with these choices based on your budget and how you shoot. 

You can go for a


5DIII + LOUP + External XLR recorder
F3 with a 10bit Atomos external recorder 
FS700 with Odyssey Q7
F35 with Odyssey Q7
BM URSA 4.6K, 
Or just a brand new FS7 with internal 10bit 4:2:2 plus 12bit raw output,
 
All of these meet your needs. +2K res, high DR, slo-mo, heavily gradeable 10/12bit, internal audio, etc

If it were me, I'd either get an F35 + Q7 because I F%#$%ing love the image, or an F3 with an Atomos for 1080p 10bit 4:2:2 Log, lovely image and all the camcorder benefits of audio, NDs, ergonomics, 60p, etc, and if I needed 4K, I'd skip BM and Kinifinity and go for an FS700 + 7Q or an FS7. Or just a new C300II if I have the investment return, and get the AF, Raw out, internal 4K 10bit, 2K 12bit, 120p, All-day small battery, EF mount, etc, 

 

14 minutes ago, TVDino said:

Canon says 5DMK2 shoots HD 1920 x 1080 (16:9) - like 5DMK3  ... but maybe not with Magic Lantern ?
I meant, what focal length suits 5DMK2/3 if You want the best cinematic filmlook ?  The famous 28mm ?

ML raw resolution is different. Only the 5DIII Card Slot can handle Full 1080p/2K continuous shooting. 5DII has moire/aliasing and will need to be upscaled for continuous recording and has much worse lowlight performance. If you go the Canon RAW way, definitely get a 5D MKIII. 

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22 minutes ago, TVDino said:

Canon says 5DMK2 shoots HD 1920 x 1080 (16:9) - like 5DMK3  ... but maybe not with Magic Lantern ?
I meant, what focal length suits 5DMK2/3 if You want the best cinematic filmlook ?  The famous 28mm ?

Correct. Well a 28mm on an S35 camera is the equivalent of 42mm full frame. The 35mm is the lens I use the most on the 5D.

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@squig i love all your posts in this thread

so cool that youre shooting your film (a feature??) on 5d3raw. to be honest ive been thinking for a while about doing the same thing for my first feature...old lenses, anamorphic maybe. so, thats inspiring for me, v cool...

do you know of any features that have been shot on 5d3raw? something ive wondered about...

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1 minute ago, kaylee said:

@squig i love all your posts in this thread

so cool that youre shooting your film (a feature??) on 5d3raw. to be honest ive been thinking for a while about doing the same thing for my first feature...old lenses, anamorphic maybe. so, thats inspiring for me, v cool...

do you know of any features that have been shot on 5d3raw? something ive wondered about...

:blush: Yeah a feature. Just working on the website now. I know of a couple of features shot with the MK3 raw, and I'm sure there's others I don't know about.

10 minutes ago, Zach Goodwin said:

I was curious what the 5D MK 3 people go through. Is it like doing BMPCC work?

The workflow is almost the same, you just have to run an app called MLVFS which basically does a real-time MLV to CDNG emulation, it doesn't actually convert the file but Resolve and Premiere see it as a CDNG. It's pretty cool, and now cross platform.

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Just now, Zach Goodwin said:

It should be, RAW files on a fullframe sensor, I hope the guys over at Mosaic find a way to get a filter onto the 5D Mark III.

It's got an OLPF, no aliasing or moire at all.

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13 minutes ago, squig said:

:blush: Yeah a feature. Just working on the website now. I know of a couple of features shot with the MK3 raw, and I'm sure there's others I don't know about.

 

I did sound for a feature which was shooting that day with 5D mk3 ML raw and 1D C 4K

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26 minutes ago, kaylee said:

do you know of any features that have been shot on 5d3raw? something ive wondered about...

This Thai horror feature was shot a couple years ago on relatively early Magic Lantern build for 5DMkIII.

I can't really see what anybody would want more from an camera to be honest. (when lit and treated as a 'proper' production camera)

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

I did sound for a feature which was shooting that day with 5D mk3 ML raw and 1D C 4K

Which one was the A cam?

Yeah The Black Death is one of the films I was talking about. Looks great!

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3 hours ago, Zach Goodwin said:

In terms of noise properties The RED can be just as bad as any canon camera. In fact here is a scene from Dredd which used a RED camera: 

 The Beginning part with the security camera was shot with it.

So true.

The rest, which is really clean, was also shot with Red Mx, though, and it just proves that lighting and post matter 10000X more for grain than what camera you're using. In my experience, the Red MX is noisier at given settings than Canon and with worse color (but better resolution and more bit depth).

But yeah, the 5D Mark III has a strong enough OLFP that you don't need another one! Good image there. Complicated workflow.

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3 hours ago, kaylee said:

@squig i love all your posts in this thread

so cool that youre shooting your film (a feature??) on 5d3raw. to be honest ive been thinking for a while about doing the same thing for my first feature...old lenses, anamorphic maybe. so, thats inspiring for me, v cool...

do you know of any features that have been shot on 5d3raw? something ive wondered about...

Just a few Movies Filmed with Canon and Nikon DSLR Cameras untill 2014 ...   (by montanafilmmaker)

Black Swan (2010)   “ Canon 5D Mark II and 7D used in conjunction with 16mm film cameras. ”

127 Hours (2010)   “ The Canon 5D Mark II, 7D, and 1D Mark IV were all used, in addition to other cameras. ”
 
The Avengers (2012)   “ Canon 5D Mark II and 7D used as additional cameras. ”
 
End of Watch (2012)   “ Canon 5D Mark II and 7D used as additional cameras. ”

Elysium (2013)   “ Canon 5D Mark II used along with the RED Epic. ”
 
Drive (2011)   “ Canon 5D Mark II (some shots) ”

Margin Call (2011)   “ Canon 5D Mark II (driving scenes) ”

Wilfred (2011 TV Series)   “ Season 2 and onward is filmed entirely with the Nikon D800.
Cinematographer likes to use the 50mm f/1.2 AIS lens for it's extremely shallow depth of field. ”

Dexter (2006 TV Series)   “ Nikon D800 used for lots of the show. ”
 
Portlandia (2011 TV Series)   “ Canon 5D Mark II used for Season 1 and 2. ”

House (2004 TV Series)   “ Canon 5D Mark II used for Season 6 finale "Help Me". ”

ParaNorman (2012)   “ Canon 5D Mark II ”
 
Act of Valor (2012)   “ Canon 5D Mark II, 7D, and 1D Mark IV used along with other cameras. ”

Snitch (2013)   “ Canon 5D Mark II (some shots). ”
 
Red Tails (2012)   “ Canon 5D Mark II, 7D, and 1D Mark IV were the primary cameras used on the film, along with a Sony camera. ”

The Bourne Legacy (2012)   “ Canon 5D Mark II (some shots) ”

Frankenweenie (2012)   “ Canon 5D Mark II ”

Limitless (2011)   “ Canon 5D Mark II and 1D Mark IV used for some shots. ”

Thor: The Dark World (2013)   “ Canon 5D Mark II (second unit: crash camera) ”
 
We need to talk about Kevin Costner (2011)   “ Canon 5D Mark II and 35mm cameras used. ”

4 hours ago, Zach Goodwin said:

In terms of noise properties The RED can be just as bad as any canon camera. In fact here is a scene from Dredd which used a RED camera: 

 The Beginning part with the security camera was shot with it.

Come on Zach; can't You see they made that on purpose ?!?
To illustrate there's cheap low-quality Mitchell surveilance-Cameras everywhere in the dystopian future of Dredd ...
Or maybe a parallel to the gloomy, claustrophobic, polluted, rainstained image/feeling of "BladeRunner" ?
Or the handheld "reality&documentary-style-movies" like "Blair Witch Project", "Cloverfield" etc. ?

Really - You MUST be joking !  (So am I with the surveilance-Cameras above ...)
It's like when Pink Floyd did a noisy radiotuning search in the start of "Wish You were here"  So be here, tech-competitors !  ;-)

PS :   We really need some more happy emoticons in the forums toolbox :anguished: !!!

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56 minutes ago, Policar said:

But yeah, the 5D Mark III has a strong enough OLFP that you don't need another one! Good image there. Complicated workflow.

Well if you think booting an extra app is complicated then it's complicated. In actual fact it couldn't be any easier; no need to transcode like the bad old H.264 days.

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10 minutes ago, Zach Goodwin said:

Would it be safe for me to say that is typical reduser bullshit? You know having to make constant excuses because it is shot on a RED.

NO ! I'm considering reporting You ... :grin: (Just joking !)  But take a look at my answer to Ebrahim Saadawi :

Do yo have a preference to a
certain company colour sceince?                               Not really, I was a CANON-Cam-fan and discovered the un-ergonomic C100 ...
                                                                                   Then looked at SONY VG900X70A7S2FS5 and then B.M. Ursa Mini 4,6 K
                                                                                   failed the promised global shutter until RED's Raven and now i look at old REDs ...

And then take a look at my latest post :

Just a few Movies Filmed with Canon and Nikon DSLR Cameras untill 2014 ...   (by montanafilmmaker)

Black Swan (2010)   “ Canon 5D Mark II and 7D used in conjunction with 16mm film cameras. ”

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On April 16, 2016 at 9:24 PM, Zach Goodwin said:

 

16 minutes ago, squig said:

Well if you think booting an extra app is complicated then it's complicated. In actual fact it couldn't be any easier; no need to transcode like the bad old H.264 days.

Where's your waveform monitor? Playback? Reliable focus peaking? Timecode sync?

It's getting easier to use, but isn't production-ready in the way low end pros need. The image is great, though. It's just still an artist and high end pro thing using 5D RAW. When the producers clamor around video village and demand playback, what do you do? An Alexa is trivially more per day and it plays back (even applies LUTs for playback) just fine.

Also, I'm pretty sure you do need to transcode. Neither blu ray nor DCP read back .dng and and it's not a native finishing format obviously, if 5D raw even goes straight to .dng yet. (But what is native–everything h264 or prores even–goes through Resolve or Nucoda–before delivery–or Lustre, but I am still on the low end so it's usually Resolve or Nucoda.)

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31 minutes ago, Zach Goodwin said:

Would it be safe for me to say that is typical reduser bullshit?

Actually, Im looking into NIKON's D810 instead of CANON 5DMK3 (But I still think that filming might be easier with a RED Scarlet-x MX !)
These 3 are the current top-candidates on my - as You can see - very flexible list !
Remember, I practically "begged" You to stop me from spending a Raven fortune and I thank You all - no exception !  ;-)

NOT EVEN
 AaronChicago & Jimmy who tried to "tootsie-frootsie-icecream" me into buying "a "Boeing 747" ... :grin::grin::grin::grin::grin::grin:

Tootsie-Frootsie.jpg

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18 minutes ago, Policar said:

Where's your waveform monitor? Playback? Reliable focus peaking? Timecode sync?

It's getting easier to use, but isn't production-ready in the way low end pros need. The image is great, though. It's just still an artist and high end pro thing using 5D RAW. When the producers clamor around video village and demand playback, what do you do? An Alexa is trivially more per day and it plays back (even applies LUTs for playback) just fine.

Also, I'm pretty sure you do need to transcode. Neither blu ray nor DCP read back .dng and and it's not a native finishing format obviously, if 5D raw even goes straight to .dng yet. (But what is native–everything h264 or prores even–goes through Resolve or Nucoda–before delivery–or Lustre, but I am still on the low end so it's usually Resolve or Nucoda.)

Between Magic Lantern and the smallHD 501 I have all the gizmos I need, including playback. I am the producer and the director so I don't have to worry about anyone being demanding besides me. Nope no transcoding, Magic Lantern just spits out a 35mm print.

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